deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:50 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:52 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:41 am
Oh yeah, our system has a really great record with fairly implementing stuff like that and being prudent with uses of executive power, especially as regards marginalized groups. Oh wait no, the complete opposite is true.

:roll: :roll:

Witb that, I'm done with the conversation, have fun.
So you do not trust "the system" to do it and you don't believe "the people" can do it. It seems you prefer rolling over and dying (or being shot, the choice is yours) to any attempt to change?

I wonder what would have happened in the U$ if slavery abolitionists had the same attitude as you?
No, I want it to change. But, since I actually live in the country in question, and have experience with it's justice system....I find the idea of a total ban presumably implemented by the executive ridiculous. Malcolms suggestion seems more sensible.

On the abolition thing, not only is hyperbolic, it's a bizarre comparison.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:58 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:50 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:52 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:41 am
Oh yeah, our system has a really great record with fairly implementing stuff like that and being prudent with uses of executive power, especially as regards marginalized groups. Oh wait no, the complete opposite is true.

:roll: :roll:

Witb that, I'm done with the conversation, have fun.
So you do not trust "the system" to do it and you don't believe "the people" can do it. It seems you prefer rolling over and dying (or being shot, the choice is yours) to any attempt to change?

I wonder what would have happened in the U$ if slavery abolitionists had the same attitude as you?
No, I want it to change. But, since I actually live in the country in question, and have experience with it's justice system....I find the idea of a total ban presumably implemented by the executive ridiculous. Malcolms suggestion seems more sensible.

On the abolition thing, not only is hyperbolic, it's a bizarre comparison.

It is also another Mason-Dixon line thing. States that fought for the Union have, overall, far better gun control laws, and are also generally more prosperous. States that fought for the Confederacy have an interest in promulgating a revisionist history of the Civil War, and while the NRA was originally formed by former Union Officers, it has been largely coopted by those in this country who imagine that the 2nd Amendment was put into place to in order that we can protect ourselves from tyranny. This point of view is in fact extremely unpatriotic, though it poses as patriotism of the highest order.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:13 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:50 pm
On the abolition thing, not only is hyperbolic, it's a bizarre comparison.
I was referring to the motivation and desire for change. If people were (are) defeatist, change would (will) never have occurred.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:17 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:13 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:50 pm
On the abolition thing, not only is hyperbolic, it's a bizarre comparison.
I was referring to the motivation and desire for change. If people were defeatist, change would never have occurred.
I'm not defeatist either, I'm just skeptical of legislative solutions to this, especially with the way our system has changed since 9/11. Again, if people could sue gun manufacturers the way Big Tobacco was sued, my guess is we either wouldn't be having this conversation, or we'd be having a much milder version of it.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Norwegian » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:28 pm

Ricky wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:47 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:52 am

I wonder what would have happened in the U$ if slavery abolitionists had the same attitude as you?
I wonder if the holocaust would of ever happened had Hitler not taken away all guns?
Others have commented on this post, and I'd like to echo in that you really should educate yourself (desperately so). There are an almost innumerable amount of books written on all things WWII, and many are quite excellent.

To get you started:

Richard J. Evans' "The Third Reich" series:
- "The Coming of the Third Reich": https://www.amazon.com/dp/0143034693/
- "The Third Reich in Power": https://www.amazon.com/dp/0143037900/
- "The Third Reich at War": https://www.amazon.com/dp/0143116711/
- "The Third Reich in History and Memory": https://www.amazon.com/dp/0349140758/

And while there's many more books about Germany and the WWII in general, the above are an excellent introduction. Then, you cannot avoid having to look more deeply into the SS, which was instrumental in implementing the Holocaust. The following books are a must-read on the SS and the Holocaust:

- "The SS: Alibi of a Nation, 1922-1945", Reitlinger: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0306803518/
- "Anatomy of the SS State", Krausnick, Buchheim, Broszat, Jacobsen: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004SE3880/
- "The Order of the Death's Head: The Story of Hitler's SS", Höhne: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0141390123/
- "Masters of Death: The SS-Einsatzgruppen and the Invention of the Holocaust", Rhodes: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0375708227/
- "The Origins of Nazi Genocide: From Euthanasia to the Final Solution", Friedlander: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0807846759/
- "Hitler, the Germans, and the Final Solution", Kershaw: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0300151276/
- "The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy, September 1939-March 1942", Browning: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0803213271/
- "Final Solution: The Fate of the Jews 1933-1949", Cesarani: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1250097231/
- "The Holocaust: A New History", Rees: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1610398440/

So, now - with your aforementioned wonder - you have an excellent chance to dive into a massive and important subject. Note that the above books while excellent are not even a drop in the sea that is good books on this particular topic. Which shows how important it is. One simply cannot afford to be severely misinformed on such issues. Go visit your local library or order from Amazon.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by justsit » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:12 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:17 pm
Again, if people could sue gun manufacturers the way Big Tobacco was sued, my guess is we either wouldn't be having this conversation, or we'd be having a much milder version of it.
Agree. Up until now, manufacturers have gotten a pass on any sort of liability, and other corporations have basically turned a blind eye. Now we a have #BoycottNRA rippling the waters, some big companies are eliminating their NRA member discount plans and cutting ties with the organization.

Yesterday Bank of America said it’s reexamining its relationships with gun manufacturers in the wake of widespread boycotts:

“We are joining other companies in our industry to examine what we can do to help end the tragedy of mass shootings, and an immediate step we’re taking is to engage the limited number of clients we have that manufacture assault weapons for non-military use to understand what they can contribute to this shared responsibility,” a ... spokesperson said. The financial giant previously extended a $40 million line of credit to the Ruger firearm company.
https://thinkprogress.org/bank-of-ameri ... a547dc085/

This could signal a major shift in attitude of the financial sector, and could obviously have serious financial implications for gun makers. Could be a big step in the right direction.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by DGA » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:58 pm
It is also another Mason-Dixon line thing. States that fought for the Union have, overall, far better gun control laws, and are also generally more prosperous. States that fought for the Confederacy have an interest in promulgating a revisionist history of the Civil War, and while the NRA was originally formed by former Union Officers, it has been largely coopted by those in this country who imagine that the 2nd Amendment was put into place to in order that we can protect ourselves from tyranny. This point of view is in fact extremely unpatriotic, though it poses as patriotism of the highest order.
:good:

Strangely, my office is immediately adjacent to the headquarters of the NRA, in Fairfax, Virginia, USA. The back of our building abuts the back of their building. When I take a walk to get some air and watch drivers behave erratically on I-66, I can hear live fire inside the building (they have a shooting range inside). And when I commute to/from work, I share the road with NRA people. It's hard to describe this except by analogy. Ever hung out with a group of Amway representatives? It's like that. It's like sharing space with a cult. The energy is weird. The behavior is weird. The vehicles are overly demonstrative (covered in stickers and painted loud colors and BIG).

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by DGA » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:30 pm

justsit wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:12 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:17 pm
Again, if people could sue gun manufacturers the way Big Tobacco was sued, my guess is we either wouldn't be having this conversation, or we'd be having a much milder version of it.
Agree. Up until now, manufacturers have gotten a pass on any sort of liability, and other corporations have basically turned a blind eye. Now we a have #BoycottNRA rippling the waters, some big companies are eliminating their NRA member discount plans and cutting ties with the organization.

Yesterday Bank of America said it’s reexamining its relationships with gun manufacturers in the wake of widespread boycotts:

“We are joining other companies in our industry to examine what we can do to help end the tragedy of mass shootings, and an immediate step we’re taking is to engage the limited number of clients we have that manufacture assault weapons for non-military use to understand what they can contribute to this shared responsibility,” a ... spokesperson said. The financial giant previously extended a $40 million line of credit to the Ruger firearm company.
https://thinkprogress.org/bank-of-ameri ... a547dc085/

This could signal a major shift in attitude of the financial sector, and could obviously have serious financial implications for gun makers. Could be a big step in the right direction.
It took less than a decade for the majority of Americans to change their minds from opposing marriage equality for same-sex couples, to supporting it. Does this mean all Americans are in favor of marriage equality? No, but it did signal a fast and dramatic shift after many decades of struggle and agitation to change minds. I am cautiously optimistic that attitudes are changing at least that quickly with regard to firearms.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mantrik » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:32 pm

Fa Dao wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:54 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:46 am
Trump has been blaming the poor sap who was the security guard at the school, who failed to attack and kill the shooter. Apparently, three others also hid behind a police car and did not take him on either.

Trump is 'informed' by watchng movies and adverts for guns, and clearly has no idea how a handgun really stacks up against an AR-15 and its 13 rounds per second spraying around. Neither have I, but I am going to guess that like some trained troops and police in a real shooting, the guard froze, possibly mindful of the power of the weapon he was facing. If you've never been shot at for real, you have no idea how you will react. Trump, of course, dodged the draft because he had a bone in his foot........well, a 'temporary bone spur', a lame excuse for sure, but very likely a symptom of privilege and fear.

A statistic quoted in the Times today sates that the NYPD record of for shooting is 18% 'on target'. So let's give guns to teachers who will of course shoot like Dirty Harry and not be phased at all when they come a cross the first body with an orange-sized exit wound.

A part of me would love to see the whole Trump clan in a canned shoot, armed with pistols, being tracked down by people with AR-15's .
ummm...no...AR-15's are semi-auto not full auto, in other words one pull of the trigger = one round fired thereby making it virtually impossible to fire 13 rds per second...you must be thinking of the M-16 which can be fired full auto and is actually a military weapon. An AR-15 is not a military weapon...it was designed by Colt to look like an M-16 and sold to LE and civilians..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_AR-15
That's what I get for quoting stuff from The Times. :)
I've only shot pistols and rifles, and only been shot at by them thankfully. I'm guessing the AR-15 is still a massive advantage over a pistol though. I will amend my comment about the Trump clan though, and limit it to Trump senior and junior (the hunter) and will allow them to arm themseves ............ with pistols ........ and prayers. ;)
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by justsit » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:30 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:32 pm
..,allow them to arm themseves ............ with pistols ........ and prayers. ;)
Re: arming yourself with Thoughts and Prayers:

This young lady nailed it. Took me a minute to figure out where she was going....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... DkHmQEOkYo

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Norwegian » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:38 pm

justsit wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:30 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:32 pm
..,allow them to arm themseves ............ with pistols ........ and prayers. ;)
Re: arming yourself with Thoughts and Prayers:

This young lady nailed it. Took me a minute to figure out where she was going....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... DkHmQEOkYo
Brilliant.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mantrik » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:57 pm

justsit wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:30 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:32 pm
..,allow them to arm themseves ............ with pistols ........ and prayers. ;)
Re: arming yourself with Thoughts and Prayers:

This young lady nailed it. Took me a minute to figure out where she was going....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... DkHmQEOkYo
This sort of thing, and the demonstrations by students, give me hope that maybe, just maybe, Trump will understand that there are more votes to be lost from this generation than can be created by NRA money.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by DNS » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:18 pm

DGA wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:30 pm
It took less than a decade for the majority of Americans to change their minds from opposing marriage equality for same-sex couples, to supporting it. Does this mean all Americans are in favor of marriage equality? No, but it did signal a fast and dramatic shift after many decades of struggle and agitation to change minds. I am cautiously optimistic that attitudes are changing at least that quickly with regard to firearms.
I should admit the legalization of gay marriage happened rather quickly considering the opposition from right-wing Christian groups which was a pleasant surprise and we even 'beat' so many other countries on that one, legalizing it sooner than so many other nations.

Guns, however are so entrenched in U.S. culture, not sure if that will follow the same course; but you never know. As I pointed out in one of my earlier posts here, even the Dems are pro-gun rights (go hunting, receive money from NRA) not all of them, but a sizable number and percentage. 15 Dem Party U.S. Senators voted down an assault weapons ban (not a total gun ban, just an assault weapons ban).

So if there's not going to be a total ban, it might be best to look at some compromise positions; including tougher background checks, longer waiting periods, registration, licensing, requiring safety courses, banning certain types of guns, sniper rifles, etc. Right now, I believe most states don't even require a gun safety course unless one is applying for a concealed carry permit.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mantrik » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:23 pm

Image
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by TharpaChodron » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:13 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:46 am
Trump has been blaming the poor sap who was the security guard at the school, who failed to attack and kill the shooter. Apparently, three others also hid behind a police car and did not take him on either.

Trump is 'informed' by watchng movies and adverts for guns, and clearly has no idea how a handgun really stacks up against an AR-15 and its 13 rounds per second spraying around. Neither have I, but I am going to guess that like some trained troops and police in a real shooting, the guard froze, possibly mindful of the power of the weapon he was facing. If you've never been shot at for real, you have no idea how you will react. Trump, of course, dodged the draft because he had a bone in his foot........well, a 'temporary bone spur', a lame excuse for sure, but very likely a symptom of privilege and fear.

A statistic quoted in the Times today sates that the NYPD record of for shooting is 18% 'on target'. So let's give guns to teachers who will of course shoot like Dirty Harry and not be phased at all when they come a cross the first body with an orange-sized exit wound.

A part of me would love to see the whole Trump clan in a canned shoot, armed with pistols, being tracked down by people with AR-15's .
Trump is showing what a graceless person he is by blaming that deputy. Still, I think the deputy failed his duty.

I imagine the guy had 30 years of service, and thought he could coast through this school job at the end of his career. He wasn't about to die when he's ready to retire with a nice pension.

Also, about teachers being armed, what a ludicrous idea. How can one teach when you have a loaded weapon you're responsible for in a classroom of little children?

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Kim O'Hara » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:21 am

Something a bit more positive - http://www.trueactivist.com/artist-melt ... N.facebook
Artist Melts 1,527 Guns And Turns Them Into Shovels For Planting Trees
:reading:

:meditate:
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by arch » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:51 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:13 pm
[
Trump is showing what a graceless person he is by blaming that deputy. Still, I think the deputy failed his duty.
I can just imagine the courageous Trump lumbering in there waving his pea-shooter with his big tie flapping . . .
TharpaChodron wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:13 pm
He wasn't about to die when he's ready to retire with a nice pension.
Right, he was thinking about his pension . . .

Is 'you would have been ready to die' implied?

With his likely 9mm or .40, and no backup, vs a vested 5.56 shooter (he could tell he was outgunned by the loudness of the round), he no doubt would have.

I'm 70. I am a school bus driver, and I love kids. The best I can say is 'maybe' I would have been.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by TharpaChodron » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:33 am

arch wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:51 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:13 pm
[
Trump is showing what a graceless person he is by blaming that deputy. Still, I think the deputy failed his duty.
I can just imagine the courageous Trump lumbering in there waving his pea-shooter with his big tie flapping . . .
TharpaChodron wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:13 pm
He wasn't about to die when he's ready to retire with a nice pension.
Is 'you would have been ready to die' implied?

With his likely 9mm or .40, and no backup, vs a vested 5.56 shooter (he could tell he was outgunned by the loudness of the round), he no doubt would have.

I'm 70. The best I can say is 'maybe' I would have been.
I don't know, but I'd hope I'd do my best. I guess I'm a little cynical because I work with a deputy who is about to retire and he doesn't exactly inspire confidence. A typical response by him: "It's 4pm on Friday and you guys want me to go out now?"...well yeah, there's a child being abused, sorry it had to happen right before the weekend. :roll: I love the guy, but burnout in LE is real.

It also seems like the argument that having an armed officer will change things didn't mean much, so now they talk about having more people with guns (teachers) will make a difference. When will it stop? I think even the NRA is realizing their arguments are sounding pretty weak now.

Speaking of school bus drivers, did you ever hear of this story? the courageous bus driver saved the kids lives. Happened in my neck of the woods. :)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Ch ... kidnapping

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by arch » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:59 am

So inspiring!

At our last safety training, a scenario of a shooter on the bus was addressed. Two training videos were shown. In the first, the kid started shooting, the bus driver yelled "Run!", then bolted out the door. The second endorsed video showed him running down the aisle to fight the shooter.

Most likely any HS kid could whip my butt. Unless the shooter was a slow reloader, the driver probably is not going to make it down the narrow aisle, facing direct fire, over bodies, etc., to get the guy. (I am in shape, but the majority of drivers are obese and would have to locomote crab-wise.)

I would run out and go to the back emergency door to try to surprise the shooter. Climbing up would be problematic for me. This is my own solution.
Last edited by arch on Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:06 am

Who the hell is going to fund and/or insure arming, training, monitoring armed teachers? Surely not Trump, probably one of the dumbest suggestions ever. I mean it's dumb/reckless in a general sense of course, but I find hilarious that the party who is the worst about things like funding for schools and mental health all the sudden is deeply concerned with both.
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