deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

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Mantrik
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mantrik » Mon May 28, 2018 5:02 pm

You see, you US folk wouldn't have all these problems if you were like us in the UK. This is the typical English school student with his father, informally dressed on their day off - neither is packing heat, but may do so in future in case they encounter a Trump. ;)

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Lukeinaz » Thu May 31, 2018 5:41 pm



What do you guys think of this article?
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu May 31, 2018 7:09 pm

Its a good article IMO, it brings up some of the points I mentioned, without claiming there is no problem, or suggesting crazy solutions.

The point made on the possible media racial bias of believing there is an 'epidemic' for the group least affected by gun violence is a good one too.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Lukeinaz » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:30 pm

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by justsit » Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:54 pm

I couldn't read too far into that story, or the previous one by the same author, but far enough to get the gist.

IMO, the gun debate isn't about statistics, or what the probabilities are, or graphs, or anything to do with numbers. It's about the real human lives that are being shattered by the ability of anyone off the street (with some very minor exceptions) to access military grade tactical assault weapons and use them to vent their frustrations on anyone they choose to slaughter. I'm not really sure why real human suffering doesn't register or warrant consideration. Are we that jaded?

Someone wants to go shoot squirrels, OK, not my thing and from a Buddhist point of view not a great idea, but that's their karma. You want to target shoot, be my guest. You want to own a gun for personal protection, personally I don't like it, but OK, take a course, get a license, then get your handgun, rifle, shotgun.

But allowing assault weapons on the street unregulated is a recipe for disaster. And if you think they are regulated, go on Craigslist, you can get one today, no questions asked.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Lukeinaz » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:15 pm

justsit wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:54 pm
I couldn't read too far into that story, or the previous one by the same author, but far enough to get the gist.

IMO, the gun debate isn't about statistics, or what the probabilities are, or graphs, or anything to do with numbers. It's about the real human lives that are being shattered by the ability of anyone off the street (with some very minor exceptions) to access military grade tactical assault weapons and use them to vent their frustrations on anyone they choose to slaughter. I'm not really sure why real human suffering doesn't register or warrant consideration. Are we that jaded?

Someone wants to go shoot squirrels, OK, not my thing and from a Buddhist point of view not a great idea, but that's their karma. You want to target shoot, be my guest. You want to own a gun for personal protection, personally I don't like it, but OK, take a course, get a license, then get your handgun, rifle, shotgun.

But allowing assault weapons on the street unregulated is a recipe for disaster. And if you think they are regulated, go on Craigslist, you can get one today, no questions asked.
If you are not willing to read the articles then its senseless to try and respond to them.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by justsit » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:10 pm

Lukeinaz wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:15 pm
......
If you are not willing to read the articles then its senseless to try and respond to them.
I couldn't read the whole things due to time constraints.

OK, now I have read them both. The first one starts, "In my first story on Medium, we discuss some of the ways in which left of center media sources warp statistics ..." That right there tells me the article will have a right wing bent. And it does.

Lots of right of center media statistics, nothing about the topic of mass school shootings, which AFAIK is what we're discussing.

I also checked on the "Medium" organization, as I think it's always prudent to check your sources. Turns out they encourage long stays on the blogs on their site. Per wiki, "Medium has been focusing on optimizing the time visitors spend reading the site. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_(website). So Mr. Campbell conveniently adds lots of stats (flood plain data, really? Hardly relevant), gets the reader to stick around, then basically nothing of substance.

So you asked what "you guys" think. I think it's a lot of numbers provided by a writer with an agenda. Nothing to see here.
YMMV.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:36 pm

justsit wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:10 pm
Lukeinaz wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:15 pm
......
If you are not willing to read the articles then its senseless to try and respond to them.
I couldn't read the whole things due to time constraints.

OK, now I have read them both. The first one starts, "In my first story on Medium, we discuss some of the ways in which left of center media sources warp statistics ..." That right there tells me the article will have a right wing bent. And it does.

Lots of right of center media statistics, nothing about the topic of mass school shootings, which AFAIK is what we're discussing.

I also checked on the "Medium" organization, as I think it's always prudent to check your sources. Turns out they encourage long stays on the blogs on their site. Per wiki, "Medium has been focusing on optimizing the time visitors spend reading the site. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_(website). So Mr. Campbell conveniently adds lots of stats (flood plain data, really? Hardly relevant), gets the reader to stick around, then basically nothing of substance.

So you asked what "you guys" think. I think it's a lot of numbers provided by a writer with an agenda. Nothing to see here.
YMMV.


You really did not read the articles in detail at all. He mentions right wing slant in other places. I think the author may be vaguely libertarian, but they are not partisan"right wing articles" by my reading. I found the second article a lot less relevant, and agree that some of this analogies were a bit silly.

His chief complaint (and I agree with him) is that the left tends to frame the gun debate in emotional terms, and offer strange fixes.. with a call to "just do something" when terrible things happen, and without considering some of the fairly agreed upon facts mentioned in his article. Namely: 1) In terms of death by firearm, suicides are a huge chunk 2) we live in an exceptionally safe time overall, you are much less likely to be shot today than in the 90's and 3) if we are going to craft gun policy it should probably be based on reducing actual harm, rather than simply trying to haphazardly eliminate a small sliver of gun crime - such as mass shootings.

He makes a third, and very relevant point that it is quite hypocritical to see the current situation as an "epidemic" when some white kids get shot in school when in fact *for years* other groups (young black men for instance) have been far more likely to die by a firearm related homicide, and when (again for years) a bulk of gun death are male suicides. He mentions possible reasons for the media ignoring these consistent trends - which as far as I know are agreed on by other authorities on gun death statistics by the way.

I don't agree with everything in the article, and I imagine I would not agree with the author's politics overall, but he makes some very good points regarding the current state of the debate, and the fact that most liberals have a view of it that is created by a media that stokes fear every chance it gets, and not one based on an actual harm reduction plan, or a rational reading of the facts.

I would really appreciate it if you'd actually read the article and refute the points therein, instead of simply claiming there is something wrong with the source.

BTW, you can just Google to find out what Medium is, it has been around for a little while, and as far as I know is not some secret right wing haven: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_(w ... #Reception
I'm not really sure why real human suffering doesn't register or warrant consideration. Are we that jaded?
This is exactly how I feel when people shit their collective pants over seeing a mass shooting on TV, but seem far less concerned with the crisis in homelessness happening in our country, with the opioid epidemic killing an unprecedented number of people (lots of them kids and young people btw, far more than will ever be involved in school shootings), or other social ills that are literally pulling at the already badly frayed threads of our society. I keep wondering why human suffering does not warrant consideration, and why gun death didn't matter until white kids got shot on TV.. but then everyone wants to talk about a statistically small number of mass shootings they are seeing on TV (admittedly terrible, and should be addressed) as if -they- are the big problem, but they can't seem to register the same level of despair with things happening right under their noses, which are far, far more likely to effect them.

Lots of right of center media statistics, nothing about the topic of mass school shootings, which AFAIK is what we're discussing.
That's because school shootings are a statistically insignificant number of firearm deaths, so there aren't many statistics to cover in that regard. On that note, one of the sites he uses as a source is 538.com, a well known site on statistics run by a bona fide liberal.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gun-deaths/

There's an example. So much for the statistics being right wing biased..these are the basic statistics of gun deaths, it is simply fact that a big chunk of these deaths are suicides, for example, not a "right wing talking point" or somesuch. Clikc through this graphic on gun deaths and you will see the same statistics, they are well known by anyone who cares to actually read about death by firearm in America, rather than just trust the medias implicit biases for much rarer events.

So basically, in my opinion the author has a point, I might disagree with him on specifics, but the current gun debate is so far removed from the statistical reality of who dies from firearms that it is hard for me to even wrap my head around what problem people think they should fix.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Lukeinaz » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:47 pm

justsit wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:10 pm

OK, now I have read them both. The first one starts, "In my first story on Medium, we discuss some of the ways in which left of center media sources warp statistics ..." That right there tells me the article will have a right wing bent. And it does.


Here is some left of center media sources for you.

Krohda brought up the issue about media and gun violence earlier and I think it is a vital point to understand. Left or right.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:52 pm

Can we keep on topic please, at least confine it gun policy, homicide by firearm etc. I am not sure what that video is supposed to prove, nor how it represents anything particularly "right" or "left", as much as it represents old media wanting to discredit new media.

But yes, there are some proposals out there for media to stop simply stop immediately naming mass shooters and significantly change their coverage..but of course I am sure that would never happen, because it means less clicks/viewers/money. There is some anecdotal reason to think that less flamboyant media coverage might mean less inspiration for mass shooting events
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Vasana » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:29 pm

Civilians own 85% of world's 1 billion firearms, survey reveals

Nearly 40% of all guns are in hands of US citizens, according to report that says rich countries hold more weapons than poorer nations


https://www.theguardian.com/global-deve ... ey-reveals
Latest statistics show the proliferation of privately owned guns is on the rise, with wealthy countries outstripping developing and war-torn countries.

In a detailed report, weapons watchdog the Small Arms Survey has researched the numbers of guns across 230 countries.

Examining the ownership of revolvers and self-loading pistols, rifles, carbines, assault rifles and sub- and light machine guns, held by civilian, military and law-enforcement groups, their latest report shows there are now estimated to be more than 1 billion firearms in the world – an increase of 17% over the past 10 years.

The majority of the arms, 85% (857m), are estimated to be held by civilians (including individuals, private security firms, non-state armed groups and gangs); while law enforcement agencies own 2% (23m) and military stockpiles account for 13% (133m).

In comparison, the Small Arms Survey 2007 report found there were 875m combined civilian, law enforcement and military firearms in the world, of which 650m were in civilian hands, a rise of 32% since 2007.

The United States has just 4% of the world population, but the survey estimates that civilians in the US possess almost 40% of the world’s firearms – 393m weapons – equivalent to 121 firearms for every 100 residents. Americans topped the polls in 2007, owning 270m weapons, which translated into 90 weapons for every 100 residents.

Examining the issues surrounding US gun control, the Pew Research Center found that one-third of Americans over 50 said they owned a gun, while this figure fell to 28% among 18- to 29-year-olds.

In 2016, 64% of murders in the US involved the use of firearms. There have been 90 mass shootings (three or more people killed) since 1982, according to investigative magazine Mother Jones. As of 2016, 42.3% of US hunters/shooters reported owning at least one AR-15 platform (M16-style) rifle, according to surveys commissioned by the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF).
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Norwegian » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:48 pm

A mass shooting has just taken place in Jacksonville, Florida, at a Madden NFL esports tournament:

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/08/26/us/j ... index.html
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jacksonvil ... 018-08-26/
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/08/26/ma ... e-say.html

Since this event was streamed live, the beginning of the attack can be heard, with a number of gunshots, and what follows from this...

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by kirtu » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:55 pm

https://www.news4jax.com/news/shooting- ... ing-leaves
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. - Sources say at least eleven people have been shot and four are dead after a shooting at the Jacksonville Landing Sunday afternoon.

Police urge everyone to stay away from the area because it is not safe.

Early reports say they were shot inside a game room at the Chicago Pizza and others may have been wounded in the gunfire.

Witnesses said they saw several people being taken out on stretchers.

We are being told that the wounded victims have been taken to Memorial Hospital and UF Health Hospital.

Several ambulances, firefighters and police officers are on the scene and roads are being blocked off downtown near the Jacksonville Landing.

Bay Street from Pearl to Main Street are closed as police investigate.

There are reports that Mayor Lenny Curry and Jacksonville Sheriff Mike Williams will be speaking on the shooting at a news conference later today. We will provide their remarks live.
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