deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

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Malcolm
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:23 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:04 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:14 am
You know, Scott Adams is a major Trumpista, so you might not really want Dilbert as your avatar.
This is very much off topic but perhaps an interesting tangent.

Scott Adams, the creator of Dilbert (my avatar is actually Wally, but from the same cartoon - look it up especially if you are a techie) is known as something of a defender of Trump. https://maxnewmanblog.wordpress.com/201 ... -on-trump/ though I wouldn't call him a "Trumpista" even remotely.

But suppose that we agree that his no matter how tepid, his defence of Trump is morally egregious, is it wrong to love his creative output such as Dilbert?

In maths, we've had some geniuses who were real arseholes, in chess, anyone remember Bobby Fischer? Not to mention the very dodgy Aleksandr Alekhine, etc etc. Wagner was a rabid anti-Semite. Heidegger, a Nazi. So should we avoid brilliant works done by unsavoury characters and even folks with questionable personality traits or unpalatable political views? Has the world become so partisan?

Sometimes.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:16 am

Mantrik wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:42 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:38 am
Strikes me as nonsense. What is "Pulls a knife" exactly, and why on earth is someone with a knife standing so far away from you pulling knife that a gun intimidates them after they pull it on you? Do you neither of you know how your weapons work? Totally divorced from reality on so many levels, what a surreal scenario.
Indeed. Yes, you do get teens waving a large knife around, or even a machette, and you may just get a chance to shoot them......and a long time in jail to reflect on the term 'reasonable force'. In the UK this does happen, almost exclusively in inner cities between black gang members, but even then they'll hire a 'clean' gun and execute someone, rather than carry one, or have a little kid carry it for the gang, who is too young to be prosecuted.

Anyone who knows how to use a knife and intends to kill is far more likely to conceal it and hit you from very close range. Some victims think they've been punched. Good luck with drawing a pistol with a severed jugular or bleeding out from a major organ.

I'd like to know the stats for bozos who get shot with their own gun - happens to cops, let alone fantasists.
Yeah. for anyone who is interested, Google Tueller Drill.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Dan74 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:06 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:53 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:07 pm
But that doesn't stop me from giving them credit where credit is due. That's back to the issue of man as a monolith. 'Coz it's not.
Hitler built some nice roads and helped set up German industry, Mao helped modernise China, Tito brought the Serbs, Croats and Bosnians together, Pol Pot did wonders for Cambodias agrarian self-sufficiency and Franco did make the trains run on time. Credit where credit is due, right?
We were talking about individuals with questionable beliefs, now you counter by talking about individuas who committed horrific actions. This is called Category Error , one of logical fallacies, I believe.

But even continuing with this, would you tell off the Germans for driving on the roads built under Hitler? Sgould Moscovites demolish the Metro brutally built by Stalin with prison labour? And if farmers in Cambodia actually learnt some good things from Pol Pot regime, should they not use it?

Even this is absurd, how much more so publicly boycotting unrelated creative output of folk's whose views we find unpalatable.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:23 am

Dan74 wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:06 am
We were talking about individuals with questionable beliefs, now you counter by talking about individuas who committed horrific actions. This is called Category Error , one of logical fallacies, I believe.
The Chicago School economic theorists didn't commit horrific actions.

Ayn Rand didn't commit any atrocities.

The members of the white power skinhead band Skrewdriver didn't kill anybody either.

All of them, in one way or another, contributed to the development of Western culture and society. Credit where credit is due.
But even continuing with this, would you tell off the Germans for driving on the roads built under Hitler?
Ever tried to avoid driving on autobahn in Germany? Not really an option.
Sgould Moscovites demolish the Metro brutally built by Stalin with prison labour?
Ever tried to live in a sprawling metropolis, without a car and without using public transport?
And if farmers in Cambodia actually learnt some good things from Pol Pot regime, should they not use it?
I was being a dick with this one. :tongue:

You see, use of these things is unavoidable, like the use of money for exchange. But I don't have to listen to racist Oi music, I don't have to read "Atlas Shrugged" and I don't have to study Keynesian economics.

So now who is engaging in Category Error logical flaws?

But you are also missing a vital point: the metro and the autobahn (like guns) were developed and built for a specific purpose and this specific purpose is tied directly to a certain ideology. All this time we thought we were using them for their utility, but (unbeknown to us) their utility also fosters a certain ideology. We complain about the specter of fascism in Europe, but actually it is not a specter, it has been there the whole time in our day to day lives and now, when it is "needed", it has popped it's ugly head out from behind the mask.

The ideal of speed and perpetual motion (for example) is a Futurist ideal, and now (70 years later) it has decided to drop the mask. The idea of "might is right" (he who has the bigger gun has the power) is an individualist creed with deep roots in Social Darwinism. Etc...

PS As a Buddhist you should know that all horrific acts start as questionable beliefs.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by kirtu » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:05 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:23 am
Dan74 wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:06 am
We were talking about individuals with questionable beliefs, now you counter by talking about individuas who committed horrific actions. This is called Category Error , one of logical fallacies, I believe.
The Chicago School economic theorists didn't commit horrific actions.

Ayn Rand didn't commit any atrocities.

The members of the white power skinhead band Skrewdriver didn't kill anybody either.

All of them, in one way or another, contributed to the development of Western culture and society. Credit where credit is due.
No, two of them contributed to the American POV. Their ideas are marginalized outside of the United States to varying degrees. And we can test the degree of penetration of their ideas in other societies. I doubt if the penetrated much outside of the English speaking world. Ayn Rand and the Chicago School's views are mostly rejected worldwide.

BTW, is Skrewdriver an influential group? I've never heard of the, myself.
But you are also missing a vital point: the metro and the autobahn (like guns) were developed and built for a specific purpose and this specific purpose is tied directly to a certain ideology. All this time we thought we were using them for their utility, but (unbeknown to us) their utility also fosters a certain ideology.
Most things we can point to are developed with broad applicability even if they we developed for a specific purpose. Hitler did not develop the autobahn, BTW. It existed as an example around Köln before he became Chancellor. He did however expand the autobahn system. He had to make good on employment and this was one of the perfect projects to do that. BTW, German ecological laws were first passed under the Nazi's and this was used later in the 70's and early 80's to oppose Green propositions.

In almost no cases does an object actually directly reflect the ideology of it's inventor or designer. Things themselves usually lack ideological content.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by emaho » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:28 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:07 pm
That's all cool and I don't excuse Wagner's anti-Semitism, Heidegger's Nazism and Adams' defense of Trump. But that doesn't stop me from giving them credit where credit is due. That's back to the issue of man as a monolith. 'Coz it's not.
I generally agree with you, if a philosophical work or a piece of art has no inherent connection with its authors views or his actions, if you can really isolate somebody's work from his personality, then there's no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. One infamous example could also be Jean-Jacques Rousseau, who gave his own children to an orphanage and wrote books about love, compassion and education. But on a sidenote, in the case of Heidegger it is highly controversial among philosophers if his philosophical theory can or cannot be seen in isolation from his Nazism. (And that's about all I can say on that topic because I could never really digest Heidegger work because I'm appaled by the way he operates with language, sorry @treehuggingoctopus...)
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by PuerAzaelis » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:43 pm

It does depend where the center is otherwise there is no compromise and everyone falls into extremes. The question isn’t which extreme is correct but where you think the middle is at this particular moment.

Like it or not we have to live with other people. Even, I assume, in New Zealand.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:45 pm

emaho wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:28 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:07 pm
That's all cool and I don't excuse Wagner's anti-Semitism, Heidegger's Nazism and Adams' defense of Trump. But that doesn't stop me from giving them credit where credit is due. That's back to the issue of man as a monolith. 'Coz it's not.
I generally agree with you, if a philosophical work or a piece of art has no inherent connection with its authors views or his actions, if you can really isolate somebody's work from his personality, then there's no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. One infamous example could also be Jean-Jacques Rousseau, who gave his own children to an orphanage and wrote books about love, compassion and education. But on a sidenote, in the case of Heidegger it is highly controversial among philosophers if his philosophical theory can or cannot be seen in isolation from his Nazism. (And that's about all I can say on that topic because I could never really digest Heidegger work because I'm appaled by the way he operates with language, sorry @treehuggingoctopus...)
Having spent quite a few years reading Heidegger, heideggerians, anti-heideggerians and post-heideggerians, I have arrived at the conclusion that poor Martin is no different from Jean-Jacques in this respect. But it is entirely :offtopic: and as the thread addresses pressing issues, perhaps we could all go

:focus:
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by PuerAzaelis » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:49 pm

emaho wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:28 pm
One infamous example could also be Jean-Jacques Rousseau, who gave his own children to an orphanage and wrote books about love, compassion and education.
Or Marx, who occasionally “worked” as an “independent” (cough) journalist but who basically mooched off Engels.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:32 pm

kirtu wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:05 am
Ayn Rand and the Chicago School's views are mostly rejected worldwide.
What are you talking about?In which galaxy are the Chicago School's views rejected?
In almost no cases does an object actually directly reflect the ideology of it's inventor or designer. Things themselves usually lack ideological content.
Sure, a petroleum powered automobile, for example, is not related to ideology, it is just a means of transport, right? :?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by emaho » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:38 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:45 pm
I have arrived at the conclusion that poor Martin is no different from Jean-Jacques in this respect.
"Poor" Martin? Seriously? Yeah, let's get back to topic...
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:41 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:49 pm
emaho wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:28 pm
One infamous example could also be Jean-Jacques Rousseau, who gave his own children to an orphanage and wrote books about love, compassion and education.
Or Marx, who occasionally “worked” as an “independent” (cough) journalist but who basically mooched off Engels.

Well, know, it is more like careened through one meager inheritance after another because he was committed to raising his daughters in a petite bourgeois manner.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Queequeg » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:32 pm

kirtu wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:09 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:29 pm
On subjects like this, I default to Bob Thurman's proposal for a free lunch for everyone who wants to spend their life in the academy. In Inner Revolution, he posits free university for everyone, for as long as they want to continue, as a way to establish a pacifying institution at the heart of society. I can't do justice to the thesis here, but its a good, quick read.
Where in "Inner Revolution" did he propose this? I thought he was advocating for a revival and expansion of the monastic tradition as a stable peace promoting block in society?

Just an expanded and reinvigorated academic sector is unlikely to help too much. Something like 1/3 of the SS leadership had PhD's for example. Secular wisdom studies can easily be perverted.

Kirt
If it wasn't in inner revolution then I heard it directly from him. I'll have to take a look at the book. It's been a while.

The idea is, in our society, the academy is the closest thing to the monastic system. It is one of the few institutions where the life of the mind is possible. By opening school to everyone, for free, for anyone who wants it, for as long as they want, we will establish a class of people freed from the demands of the household life - he wasn't saying everyone should be Buddhist, but rather creating the conditions for sramana to emerge in our society. Some will be Buddhist, others Christians, Jews, Muslims, stoics, whatever. The point is, no matter what, once a human being is allowed to think and think for the sake of thinking, they surely will not want to kill people and things.

You, know, citing Nazis to make an argument generally is useless. What are we to draw from that? It's like hardcore Republicans who, when questioned about the shortcomings of their form of captialism immediately invoke the shortcomings of communism.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:00 pm

kirtu wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:05 am
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:23 am
Dan74 wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:06 am
We were talking about individuals with questionable beliefs, now you counter by talking about individuas who committed horrific actions. This is called Category Error , one of logical fallacies, I believe.
The Chicago School economic theorists didn't commit horrific actions.

Ayn Rand didn't commit any atrocities.

The members of the white power skinhead band Skrewdriver didn't kill anybody either.

All of them, in one way or another, contributed to the development of Western culture and society. Credit where credit is due.
No, two of them contributed to the American POV. Their ideas are marginalized outside of the United States to varying degrees. And we can test the degree of penetration of their ideas in other societies. I doubt if the penetrated much outside of the English speaking world. Ayn Rand and the Chicago School's views are mostly rejected worldwide.

BTW, is Skrewdriver an influential group? I've never heard of the, myself.
They were a English punk band who had a single on Chiswick Records in 1977, I' Don't Like You, where the b-side had a cover of the Stones' 19th Nervous Breakdown off of the record, All Skewed Up.

At this point there were no white supremacy themes in their music.

They later become very involved in the international white supremacy movement. This became evident when they released their second album in 1984, Hail the New Dawn.


Interestingly, Death in June's founder, David P, was in another Chiswick band called Crisis — a hard left punk band. He then became a fellow traveler on the right.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:02 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:45 pm
emaho wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:28 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:07 pm
That's all cool and I don't excuse Wagner's anti-Semitism, Heidegger's Nazism and Adams' defense of Trump. But that doesn't stop me from giving them credit where credit is due. That's back to the issue of man as a monolith. 'Coz it's not.
I generally agree with you, if a philosophical work or a piece of art has no inherent connection with its authors views or his actions, if you can really isolate somebody's work from his personality, then there's no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. One infamous example could also be Jean-Jacques Rousseau, who gave his own children to an orphanage and wrote books about love, compassion and education. But on a sidenote, in the case of Heidegger it is highly controversial among philosophers if his philosophical theory can or cannot be seen in isolation from his Nazism. (And that's about all I can say on that topic because I could never really digest Heidegger work because I'm appaled by the way he operates with language, sorry @treehuggingoctopus...)
Having spent quite a few years reading Heidegger, heideggerians, anti-heideggerians and post-heideggerians, I have arrived at the conclusion that poor Martin is no different from Jean-Jacques in this respect. But it is entirely :offtopic: and as the thread addresses pressing issues, perhaps we could all go

:focus:
Heidegger was a colossal bore and his Greek, pitiful.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:09 pm

emaho wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:38 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:45 pm
I have arrived at the conclusion that poor Martin is no different from Jean-Jacques in this respect.
"Poor" Martin? Seriously? Yeah, let's get back to topic...
Well, I had not thought the word "poor" would be controversial, but if you deem it so, have a look here:
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/poor

Not a bore, contrary to what Malcolm believes, but a brilliant mind who erred horribly, committing a tragic mistake that would cast a shadow over all the brilliance of his thought -- and thus very much a "poor" guy, if you ask me.

The comparisons with Skrewdriver are totally wrong. Unlike Donaldson and co., Heidegger never incited anyone to violence. The Nazism he supported -- for a brief time, let it be added, the affair was patently over by the very early 1940s (some argue that it ended as early as 1936-1938) -- had actually very little in common with the Nazism that was. Donaldson was a Nazi till the day he died, and unlike Heidegger he knew perfectly well what Nazism actually was and what atrocities it perpetrated (worse, he cherished these atrocities) -- long after Heidegger stopped supporting Hitler and his pals. Heidegger was anti-Semitic, though his anti-Semitism seems mostly "ethnic," the kind of anti-Semitism that unfortunately was part of the European cultural package at that time, and in no way only among Germans. But he never tried to excuse the Holocaust -- and indeed by the early 1940s had come to view not just Nazism but all fascism as yet another, and perfectly ghastly, manifestation of the nihilism which holds sway over us when das Gestell reigns.

Personally, what I find the most disappointing aspect of his thought is his anthropocentrism, the flaw that is at least as glaring in Levinas too. They both ought to have known so much better. But then again, anthropocentrism has been so deeply ingrained in our culture for so long that there is but a handful of people who have managed to escape it...
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:00 pm
Interestingly, Death in June's founder, David P, was in another Chiswick band called Crisis — a hard left punk band. He then became a fellow traveler on the right.
Douglas P., you mean, P. standing for Pearce. Crisis also featured Tony Wakeford, another fellow traveller of the far right (at some point, at least). Just after Crisis' demise they formed Amongst the Ruins, an industrial/proto neofolk band with clearly fascist inclinations.

I have never understood the cult status of Death in June. I mean, all controversies aside, they always sounded so mediocre...
Last edited by treehuggingoctopus on Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:12 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:09 pm

Not a bore, contrary to what Malcolm believes, but a brilliant mind
Being brilliant does not preclude being boring. For example, Herbert Guenther.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by kirtu » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:20 am

Queequeg wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:32 pm
kirtu wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:09 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:29 pm
On subjects like this, I default to Bob Thurman's proposal for a free lunch for everyone who wants to spend their life in the academy. In Inner Revolution, he posits free university for everyone, for as long as they want to continue, as a way to establish a pacifying institution at the heart of society. I can't do justice to the thesis here, but its a good, quick read.
Where in "Inner Revolution" did he propose this? I thought he was advocating for a revival and expansion of the monastic tradition as a stable peace promoting block in society?

Just an expanded and reinvigorated academic sector is unlikely to help too much. Something like 1/3 of the SS leadership had PhD's for example. Secular wisdom studies can easily be perverted.

Kirt
If it wasn't in inner revolution then I heard it directly from him. I'll have to take a look at the book. It's been a while.

The idea is, in our society, the academy is the closest thing to the monastic system. It is one of the few institutions where the life of the mind is possible. By opening school to everyone, for free, for anyone who wants it, for as long as they want, we will establish a class of people freed from the demands of the household life - he wasn't saying everyone should be Buddhist, but rather creating the conditions for sramana to emerge in our society. Some will be Buddhist, others Christians, Jews, Muslims, stoics, whatever.
Okay so he thinks the sramana can sort of emerge here and wants to create a situation that he hopes will result in their emergence in the United States (or maybe in the West in general).

American history suggests otherwise and I'm surprised that Thurman would have missed it.
The point is, no matter what, once a human being is allowed to think and think for the sake of thinking, they surely will not want to kill people and things.
And this is exactly the point I am making with the prevalence of PhD's in SS membership (although perhaps the statistic includes the Allgemeine SS, which would then skew the point - but Goebbels and many of the leadership of the Einsatzgruppen [killing units responsible for almost all of the initial stage of the Holocaust and specifically the shooting of at least 1M people and the eradication of villages in Russia until about 1943] held PhD's).

You, know, citing Nazis to make an argument generally is useless. What are we to draw from that? It's like hardcore Republicans who, when questioned about the shortcomings of their form of captialism immediately invoke the shortcomings of communism.
I have to disagree. The rise of Nazism in Germany, while almost a unique historical event (almost because forms of Nazism arose in many other countries as well at the same time), nonetheless demonstrates exactly the failure of organized spirituality and intellectual society, and in the specific case of Germany, the final failure of the aristocracy, to stem the complete perversion of society by a handful of people. All of these institutions were completely impotent in the face of this seemingly inevitable historical event.

History is a 5,000 year + database. We ignore it at our peril even as we are coming to be able to correctly analyse it.

Kirt
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"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:45 am

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:09 pm
I have never understood the cult status of Death in June. I mean, all controversies aside, they always sounded so mediocre...

They were in some respect copying stylistic trends from Psychick TV, though PTV was never fascist in nature. When PTV started the faux '60's folk thing, many people in the Industrial Music scene followed.

Death in June, Boyd Rice, and others, however, apparently did not get the message that Fascism, while worthy of exploration from which to mine themes, was not to be glorified nor taken seriously on its own merits.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:52 am

treehuggingoctopus wrote:I have never understood the cult status of Death in June. I mean, all controversies aside, they always sounded so mediocre...

DiJ is mindblowingly tacky these days, they just get worse with every album. They are a good advertisement for why one needs to be careful when playing with transgression. Many affiliated artists did their thing in the 90's (Current 93 for instance) and managed to come out of it as not being Nazis. There is an interview out there with Sleazy Christopherson of Coil about this subject where he sums it very well, saying that ultimately if you make transgressive art, if what you put out is not life affirming somehow, and plays with darkness, it can transform you into the very ugly aesthetic you are playing with. Not exactly big news to Buddhists, but I was surprised to hear it from him.
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