deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

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kirtu
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by kirtu » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:25 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:29 pm
kirtu wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:27 am
One of the most obvious solutions to eliminating mass shootings are to confiscate all guns and outlaw the sale of weapons. The justification for this is that no one, or almost no one, hunts for survival anymore. And in the current situation the "well-regulated milita" (the National Guard) has their own weapons.

Kirt
The 2nd amendment is just an amendment, it can be repealed, but good luck with that.
But only the 18 Amendment has ever been repealed.

Why is the 2nd Amendment deified especially in light of the massive misuse of the right to bear arms?

Kirt
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:06 pm

kirtu wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:25 am

Why is the 2nd Amendment deified especially in light of the massive misuse of the right to bear arms?
NRA.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by kirtu » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:00 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:06 pm
kirtu wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:25 am

Why is the 2nd Amendment deified especially in light of the massive misuse of the right to bear arms?
NRA.
Come on Malcolm, that's not an answer. Why is the NRA's lobbying amongst the American people so successful?

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
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"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Wayfarer » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:15 am

Kirtu wrote:Why is the 2nd Amendment deified especially in light of the massive misuse of the right to bear arms?
I think the answer is, that it is something like a vicious circle. A lot of well-meaning people - upstanding citizens, not criminals - will insist that 'gun laws' won't stop criminals and psychopaths from getting guns, but they will prevent them from having a gun to defend themselves against said psychopath. So it's an appeal to fear - the more guns there are in circulation, the more they feel they need one of their own. Gun sales go up after each mass shooting event. There's still a strong element of 'frontier justice' in the US - the idea that citizens have a right to defend themselves against hostile others.

But my answer to that is this: I would have thought that the definition of a truly civil society is NOT having to own a gun out of fear that you might need one. In other words, this vicious circle really does undermine civility, and indeed civilisation. I can imagine there would be places where I would want to own a gun - if I was required to live in some developing countries, with high crime rates and ineffective policing. But it's a real tragedy that so many Americans feel like that. it's the 'culture of fear'. If you listen to Wayne LaPierre, it is writ large on every speech he makes.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Kim O'Hara » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:23 am

Just to lighten up for a minute or two -



:coffee:
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Quay » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:07 am

kirtu wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:00 am
...Why is the NRA's lobbying amongst the American people so successful?
This question presupposes the American people are largely in charge of their government when it is clear that the government is largely controlled by a subset of those people. Even a large number of NRA members, when solicited outside the organization, do not agree with their leadership's relentless, maniacal focus on a few issues.

The NRA isn't so successful lobbying people as it is successful in funneling enormous amounts of cash upon congress and simultaneously the fear of the NRA's criticism among some voters, right now a third or less of the electorate. Since most in congress are mainly interested in one thing -- keeping their seat/power -- the NRA wields a disproportionate influence relative to those who agree with what it is doing.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:19 am

kirtu wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:00 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:06 pm
kirtu wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:25 am

Why is the 2nd Amendment deified especially in light of the massive misuse of the right to bear arms?
NRA.
Come on Malcolm, that's not an answer. Why is the NRA's lobbying amongst the American people so successful?

Kirt
It is the congress they lobby, not the people, and they have been at it since right after the civil war.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mkoll » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:34 am

kirtu wrote:Come on Malcolm, that's not an answer. Why is the NRA's lobbying amongst the American people so successful?
Because guns are embedded deeply within our culture, like football and cheeseburgers and movies. People get very defensive about their culture and cherished traditions.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by shaunc » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:47 am

Mkoll wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:34 am
kirtu wrote:Come on Malcolm, that's not an answer. Why is the NRA's lobbying amongst the American people so successful?
Because guns are embedded deeply within our culture, like football and cheeseburgers and movies. People get very defensive about their culture and cherished traditions.
That's very true. There was recently a push by a state government in Australia to ban greyhound racing. The public backlash against the government by the people was huge. If a U.S. politician banned guns it'd cost him his job as it did to a few politicians in Australia just for suggesting to ban greyhound racing.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:12 am

Mkoll wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:34 am
kirtu wrote:Come on Malcolm, that's not an answer. Why is the NRA's lobbying amongst the American people so successful?
Because guns are embedded deeply within our culture, like football and cheeseburgers and movies. People get very defensive about their culture and cherished traditions.
That does not answer why. If you want the answer, you have to look at pre-Civil war attitudes towards the 2nd amendment (militias) and post Civil war, when the NRA began actively encouraging an understanding of the 2nd Amendment as something for personal gun ownership.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mkoll » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:54 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:12 am
Mkoll wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:34 am
kirtu wrote:Come on Malcolm, that's not an answer. Why is the NRA's lobbying amongst the American people so successful?
Because guns are embedded deeply within our culture, like football and cheeseburgers and movies. People get very defensive about their culture and cherished traditions.
That does not answer why. If you want the answer, you have to look at pre-Civil war attitudes towards the 2nd amendment (militias) and post Civil war, when the NRA began actively encouraging an understanding of the 2nd Amendment as something for personal gun ownership.
Obviously it's not the whole story. Just the most significant and relevant part of it.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:14 pm

Mkoll wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:54 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:12 am
Mkoll wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:34 am

Because guns are embedded deeply within our culture, like football and cheeseburgers and movies. People get very defensive about their culture and cherished traditions.
That does not answer why. If you want the answer, you have to look at pre-Civil war attitudes towards the 2nd amendment (militias) and post Civil war, when the NRA began actively encouraging an understanding of the 2nd Amendment as something for personal gun ownership.
Obviously it's not the whole story. Just the most significant and relevant part of it.
Well, as I pointed out already, we do not have a culture of guns in Massachusetts, and this is shown by the fact that we have among the lowest rates of gun violence in the country. Places where gun violence are highest are also the places in the country where people from South moved after the Civil War. This is much more of a Mason/Dixon line issue than anyone is willing to admit.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Quay » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:11 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:14 pm
...This is much more of a Mason/Dixon line issue than anyone is willing to admit.
Oh there are plenty of people especially in the South who not only admit this but also wish to talk about it. However in the current climate anyone trying to do so is shouted down, the idea being that if the opposition simply talks loud enough and long enough the "pansy," "libtard" people who want to "take away our guns" will just shut up. Or move to Massachusetts or some other "God-forsaken hellhole, like Sweden." Or even "get right with God and stock up on some good, traditional 1911's."

(Words in quotation marks directly overheard by this writer.)
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:22 pm

Quay wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:11 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:14 pm
...This is much more of a Mason/Dixon line issue than anyone is willing to admit.
Oh there are plenty of people especially in the South who not only admit this but also wish to talk about it. However in the current climate anyone trying to do so is shouted down, the idea being that if the opposition simply talks loud enough and long enough the "pansy," "libtard" people who want to "take away our guns" will just shut up. Or move to Massachusetts or some other "God-forsaken hellhole, like Sweden." Or even "get right with God and stock up on some good, traditional 1911's."

(Words in quotation marks directly overheard by this writer.)
Well, I for one definitely want to take away all of their semi-automatic weapons. They can keep their single shots, flintlocks, and even winchesters.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Quay » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:22 pm
Well, I for one definitely want to take away all of their semi-automatic weapons. They can keep their single shots, flintlocks, and even winchesters.
Right there with you. And such things might even be possible, at least restrictions on semiautomatic weapons, if not for the insane level of corruption, double-speak, hypocrisy, and naked greed so evident in Southern statehouses.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mkoll » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:02 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:14 pm
Mkoll wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:54 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:12 am


That does not answer why. If you want the answer, you have to look at pre-Civil war attitudes towards the 2nd amendment (militias) and post Civil war, when the NRA began actively encouraging an understanding of the 2nd Amendment as something for personal gun ownership.
Obviously it's not the whole story. Just the most significant and relevant part of it.
Well, as I pointed out already, we do not have a culture of guns in Massachusetts, and this is shown by the fact that we have among the lowest rates of gun violence in the country. Places where gun violence are highest are also the places in the country where people from South moved after the Civil War. This is much more of a Mason/Dixon line issue than anyone is willing to admit.
We're talking about the "American people" here, not the "Massachusettsian people." Billy Crystal in the most recent Real Time talked about how guns (and more broadly, violence, since guns are inherently connected with violence) are even part of our colloquial language. Whole conversation is worth watching BTW, Crystal is a riot (oh look, I just used a word having to do with violence in a colloquially acceptable manner ;)).

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by shaunc » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:37 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:22 pm
Quay wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:11 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:14 pm
...This is much more of a Mason/Dixon line issue than anyone is willing to admit.
Oh there are plenty of people especially in the South who not only admit this but also wish to talk about it. However in the current climate anyone trying to do so is shouted down, the idea being that if the opposition simply talks loud enough and long enough the "pansy," "libtard" people who want to "take away our guns" will just shut up. Or move to Massachusetts or some other "God-forsaken hellhole, like Sweden." Or even "get right with God and stock up on some good, traditional 1911's."

(Words in quotation marks directly overheard by this writer.)
Well, I for one definitely want to take away all of their semi-automatic weapons. They can keep their single shots, flintlocks, and even winchesters.
That's probably the most sensible and workable solution.
Ban semi-automatic weapons and limit magazine capacity in slide, bolt and lever action rifles.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:26 am

Mkoll wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:02 am

We're talking about the "American people" here...
No such thing, by design.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by The Cicada » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:52 am

kirtu wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:00 am
Come on Malcolm, that's not an answer. Why is the NRA's lobbying amongst the American people so successful?

Kirt
The same reason the Mexican Zapatistas in the Yucatan don't renounce violence. We don't trust our elites. The hemisphere was won for the West through bloody conflict. We have a different history than Asian nations or Europe or Oz. And even though I hear that there are stands in Japan where items are left out untended and money is still given honestly for the items taken, I still have to wonder if the patrons aren't just afraid that Otoya Yamaguchi will jump out and sever their hands if they don't pay fairly.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:05 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:22 pm
Well, I for one definitely want to take away all of their semi-automatic weapons. They can keep their single shots, flintlocks, and even winchesters.
What about their blunderbusses, should they be allowed to keep those? I mean they are pretty easily concealable tucked away in one's waistcoat, under their oilskin jacket.
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