deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

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Queequeg
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Queequeg » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:00 am

kirtu wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:20 am
Okay so he thinks the sramana can sort of emerge here and wants to create a situation that he hopes will result in their emergence in the United States (or maybe in the West in general).

American history suggests otherwise and I'm surprised that Thurman would have missed it.
Well, I don't want to be blamed for getting it wrong but something like that.
The point is, no matter what, once a human being is allowed to think and think for the sake of thinking, they surely will not want to kill people and things.
And this is exactly the point I am making with the prevalence of PhD's in SS membership (although perhaps the statistic includes the Allgemeine SS, which would then skew the point - but Goebbels and many of the leadership of the Einsatzgruppen [killing units responsible for almost all of the initial stage of the Holocaust and specifically the shooting of at least 1M people and the eradication of villages in Russia until about 1943] held PhD's).
You, know, citing Nazis to make an argument generally is useless. What are we to draw from that? It's like hardcore Republicans who, when questioned about the shortcomings of their form of captialism immediately invoke the shortcomings of communism.
I have to disagree. The rise of Nazism in Germany, while almost a unique historical event (almost because forms of Nazism arose in many other countries as well at the same time), nonetheless demonstrates exactly the failure of organized spirituality and intellectual society, and in the specific case of Germany, the final failure of the aristocracy, to stem the complete perversion of society by a handful of people. All of these institutions were completely impotent in the face of this seemingly inevitable historical event.

History is a 5,000 year + database. We ignore it at our peril even as we are coming to be able to correctly analyse it.

Kirt
Your views seems to have a head of steam. I'll just get out of the way.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by kirtu » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:02 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:32 pm
kirtu wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:05 am
Ayn Rand and the Chicago School's views are mostly rejected worldwide.
What are you talking about?In which galaxy are the Chicago School's views rejected?
With Friedman's death and the failure of the US economy in 2008 the Chicago School is in decline outside of middle North America.
In almost no cases does an object actually directly reflect the ideology of it's inventor or designer. Things themselves usually lack ideological content.
Sure, a petroleum powered automobile, for example, is not related to ideology, it is just a means of transport, right? :?
Aside from Henry Ford we know nothing (or very little) about the ideological views of the early inventors of the car. And their views are completely irrelevant. The technology they created is completely neutral.

The internal combustion engine is being phased out. Unfortunately it took much longer than it should have. Now the promotion of the car as a means of economic expansion is another thing entirely.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by TharpaChodron » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:11 am

I thought you all were talking about the band Death. Not Death in June. wtf

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by kirtu » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:33 am

kirtu wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:20 am
Queequeg wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:32 pm
If it wasn't in inner revolution then I heard it directly from him. I'll have to take a look at the book. It's been a while.

The idea is, in our society, the academy is the closest thing to the monastic system. It is one of the few institutions where the life of the mind is possible. By opening school to everyone, for free, for anyone who wants it, for as long as they want, we will establish a class of people freed from the demands of the household life - he wasn't saying everyone should be Buddhist, but rather creating the conditions for sramana to emerge in our society. Some will be Buddhist, others Christians, Jews, Muslims, stoics, whatever.
Okay so he thinks the sramana can sort of emerge here and wants to create a situation that he hopes will result in their emergence in the United States (or maybe in the West in general).

American history suggests otherwise and I'm surprised that Thurman would have missed it.
Furthermore I'm reminded of the historian John Gill in Star Trek's "Patterns of Force", circa 1966.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:45 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:11 am
I thought you all were talking about the band Death. Not Death in June. wtf
IIRC they were pretty unremarkable politically☺
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by TharpaChodron » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:07 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:45 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:11 am
I thought you all were talking about the band Death. Not Death in June. wtf
IIRC they were pretty unremarkable politically☺
Political bands kind of suck, imo. The Clash did it well. And then you have bands like Midnight Oil. totally off topic, but hey!

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Dan74 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:24 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:23 am
Dan74 wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:06 am
We were talking about individuals with questionable beliefs, now you counter by talking about individuas who committed horrific actions. This is called Category Error , one of logical fallacies, I believe.
The Chicago School economic theorists didn't commit horrific actions.

Ayn Rand didn't commit any atrocities.

The members of the white power skinhead band Skrewdriver didn't kill anybody either.

All of them, in one way or another, contributed to the development of Western culture and society. Credit where credit is due.
But even continuing with this, would you tell off the Germans for driving on the roads built under Hitler?
Ever tried to avoid driving on autobahn in Germany? Not really an option.
Sgould Moscovites demolish the Metro brutally built by Stalin with prison labour?
Ever tried to live in a sprawling metropolis, without a car and without using public transport?
And if farmers in Cambodia actually learnt some good things from Pol Pot regime, should they not use it?
I was being a dick with this one. :tongue:

You see, use of these things is unavoidable, like the use of money for exchange. But I don't have to listen to racist Oi music, I don't have to read "Atlas Shrugged" and I don't have to study Keynesian economics.

So now who is engaging in Category Error logical flaws?

But you are also missing a vital point: the metro and the autobahn (like guns) were developed and built for a specific purpose and this specific purpose is tied directly to a certain ideology. All this time we thought we were using them for their utility, but (unbeknown to us) their utility also fosters a certain ideology. We complain about the specter of fascism in Europe, but actually it is not a specter, it has been there the whole time in our day to day lives and now, when it is "needed", it has popped it's ugly head out from behind the mask.

The ideal of speed and perpetual motion (for example) is a Futurist ideal, and now (70 years later) it has decided to drop the mask. The idea of "might is right" (he who has the bigger gun has the power) is an individualist creed with deep roots in Social Darwinism. Etc...

PS As a Buddhist you should know that all horrific acts start as questionable beliefs.
Lots of new issues, you raise here, Greg. I don't know what insidious agenda Adams is promoting with his Dilbert comics. If anything, it sheds a witty look at the absurdities of the management culture and the oddities of the engineering culture with an occasional look askance at broader madness of our contemporary world.

As for roads and cars, of course everyone had an agenda, but it doesn't mean that the agenda remains as a defining characteristic of our infrastructure, or if it does, you haven't yet shown this. Seems like a long bow to me, but I am interested to see if you can expand on this.

In any case, my original point had a fairly limited ambit - flawed people are capable of producing worthwhile things and it is not wrong to give credit when credit is due. That said, it is also possible to point out that we are not supporting Trump when we are enjoying Dilbert and we are not supporting racism, when we quote Hume's other works, etc etc.

Where we draw the line is a subtler issue. Do we boycott Woody Allan, Roman Polanski and Klaus Kinski films as a stance against pedophilia? Do you even boycott any little shop that supports Trump? I think we should tease out what kind of a struggle is both right and relevant in this day and age.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:51 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:07 am
The Clash did it well.
:heart: :heart: :heart:
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:14 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:24 pm
Do you even boycott any little shop that supports Trump?
I do.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by emaho » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:28 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:09 pm
emaho wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:38 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:45 pm
I have arrived at the conclusion that poor Martin is no different from Jean-Jacques in this respect.
"Poor" Martin? Seriously? Yeah, let's get back to topic...
Well, I had not thought the word "poor" would be controversial, but if you deem it so, have a look here:
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/poor
Wow. Now that must have pissed you off big time :tongue:

Sure, if I had the siddhis to see Heidegger suffering the negative karmic consequences of his actions I'd probably say "poor Martin", just like I say "poor Theon" when Ramsay cuts his dick off. But that doesn't mean that during his lifetime Heidegger was a victim of undue criticism, as your wording "poor Martin" suggests. After all, he has never even once apologized for his actions, and the public explanations he gave, as in the Spiegel interview, were really quite lame.
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:09 pm
Not a bore, contrary to what Malcolm believes, but a brilliant mind who erred horribly, committing a tragic mistake that would cast a shadow over all the brilliance of his thought -- and thus very much a "poor" guy, if you ask me.

The comparisons with Skrewdriver are totally wrong. Unlike Donaldson and co., Heidegger never incited anyone to violence. The Nazism he supported -- for a brief time, let it be added, the affair was patently over by the very early 1940s (some argue that it ended as early as 1936-1938) -- had actually very little in common with the Nazism that was. Donaldson was a Nazi till the day he died, and unlike Heidegger he knew perfectly well what Nazism actually was and what atrocities it perpetrated (worse, he cherished these atrocities) -- long after Heidegger stopped supporting Hitler and his pals. Heidegger was anti-Semitic, though his anti-Semitism seems mostly "ethnic," the kind of anti-Semitism that unfortunately was part of the European cultural package at that time, and in no way only among Germans. But he never tried to excuse the Holocaust -- and indeed by the early 1940s had come to view not just Nazism but all fascism as yet another, and perfectly ghastly, manifestation of the nihilism which holds sway over us when das Gestell reigns.

Personally, what I find the most disappointing aspect of his thought is his anthropocentrism, the flaw that is at least as glaring in Levinas too. They both ought to have known so much better. But then again, anthropocentrism has been so deeply ingrained in our culture for so long that there is but a handful of people who have managed to escape it...
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:00 pm
Interestingly, Death in June's founder, David P, was in another Chiswick band called Crisis — a hard left punk band. He then became a fellow traveler on the right.
Douglas P., you mean, P. standing for Pearce. Crisis also featured Tony Wakeford, another fellow traveller of the far right (at some point, at least). Just after Crisis' demise they formed Amongst the Ruins, an industrial/proto neofolk band with clearly fascist inclinations.

I have never understood the cult status of Death in June. I mean, all controversies aside, they always sounded so mediocre...
Funny, how off-topic posts are allright when they're coming from you, isn't it ;)

The problem with Heidegger's philosophy is, well, his philosophy. Nevermind.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:42 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:51 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:07 am
The Clash did it well.
:heart: :heart: :heart:
I don't know, I kind of favor Crass for politics, like this gem released in 1978:

https://crass.bandcamp.com/track/do-the ... a-living-6
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by TharpaChodron » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:42 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:51 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:07 am
The Clash did it well.
:heart: :heart: :heart:
I don't know, I kind of favor Crass for politics, like this gem released in 1978:

https://crass.bandcamp.com/track/do-the ... a-living-6
bit too hard core for my delicate ears, but I hear their fold out album sleeves opened up into cool posters.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:39 pm

emaho wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:28 pm
Wow. Now that must have pissed you off big time :tongue:
Pissed off? Dear emaho, you are misreading my emotions. We surely disagree -- I happen to value Heidegger's thought a lot, flawed as it is (whose isn't?), and I do think (just as Arendt, Marcuse and others have thought) that he was occasionally a victim of excessive criticism. But piss me off you hardly did. Anyway, I am not going to try to persuade you to start reading Heidegger, as we both know there are far more urgent things to do for anyone who follows the Dharma.

Discussing the advantages of The Clash or Crass, for instance. Chumbawamba, too:

. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:33 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:14 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:42 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:51 pm


:heart: :heart: :heart:
I don't know, I kind of favor Crass for politics, like this gem released in 1978:

https://crass.bandcamp.com/track/do-the ... a-living-6
bit too hard core for my delicate ears, but I hear their fold out album sleeves opened up into cool posters.
Oh sure, they are pretty dissonant. But they were fun.

There there was the Pop Group. I once hung out of Mark Stewart when I was living in Boston. Odd dude.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:34 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:39 pm
I happen to value Heidegger's thought a lot, flawed as it is (whose isn't?)
Nāgārjuna, etc.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by emaho » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:54 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:39 pm
Discussing the advantages of The Clash or Crass, for instance. Chumbawamba, too:
:twothumbsup: for Chumbawamba

And the only tune I ever liked from Crass

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:33 pm
I once hung out of Mark Stewart when I was living in Boston.
You hung out of some guy? I'll leave the snarky remarks about that to dzogchungpa...
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:33 pm
There there was the Pop Group. I once hung out of Mark Stewart when I was living in Boston. Odd dude.

If you were hanging out of him, he must have been a very odd dude indeed...
If you focus on an object, you are not meditating. - Dudjom Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:17 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:12 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:33 pm
There there was the Pop Group. I once hung out of Mark Stewart when I was living in Boston. Odd dude.

If you were hanging out of him, he must have been a very odd dude indeed...
:woohoo: :woohoo:
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by kirtu » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:27 am

One of the most obvious solutions to eliminating mass shootings are to confiscate all guns and outlaw the sale of weapons. The justification for this is that no one, or almost no one, hunts for survival anymore. And in the current situation the "well-regulated milita" (the National Guard) has their own weapons.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:29 pm

kirtu wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:27 am
One of the most obvious solutions to eliminating mass shootings are to confiscate all guns and outlaw the sale of weapons. The justification for this is that no one, or almost no one, hunts for survival anymore. And in the current situation the "well-regulated milita" (the National Guard) has their own weapons.

Kirt
The 2nd amendment is just an amendment, it can be repealed, but good luck with that.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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