deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

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shaunc
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by shaunc » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:50 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:44 am
Disclosure: I was encouraged to get a gun for self protection when I was living in a really high crime area in South Central LA. I have some crazy stories, but I learned that if you aren't involving yourself with gangs and drugs, you really don't have anything to fear.

As it turned out, I never had reason to use a gun to defend myself, ever. I realized the nature of crime and gun violence was that most innocent people don't need one for protection.

This is my guilty confession post. :?
Yeah, generally speaking the crooks only kill each other.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by TharpaChodron » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:07 am

shaunc wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:50 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:44 am
Disclosure: I was encouraged to get a gun for self protection when I was living in a really high crime area in South Central LA. I have some crazy stories, but I learned that if you aren't involving yourself with gangs and drugs, you really don't have anything to fear.

As it turned out, I never had reason to use a gun to defend myself, ever. I realized the nature of crime and gun violence was that most innocent people don't need one for protection.

This is my guilty confession post. :?
Yeah, generally speaking the crooks only kill each other.
Exactly. Although they may be poor shots, hence innocent bystanders in drive by's.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by pueraeternus » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:03 am

Norwegian wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:38 am
Greg is talking about the other kind of cock, the penis kind.
gasp *clutches pearls*
"Men must want to do things out of their own innermost drives. People, not commercial organizations or chains of command, are what make great civilizations work. Every civilization depends upon the quality of the individuals it produces. If you over-organize humans, over-legalize them, suppress their urge to greatness - they cannot work and their civilization collapses."
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:18 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:44 am
Disclosure: I was encouraged to get a gun for self protection when I was living in a really high crime area in South Central LA. I have some crazy stories, but I learned that if you aren't involving yourself with gangs and drugs, you really don't have anything to fear.

As it turned out, I never had reason to use a gun to defend myself, ever. I realized the nature of crime and gun violence was that most innocent people don't need one for protection.

This is my guilty confession post. :?
A gun is one of those "just in case" things for the very worst case scenario anyway, the last ditch effort. Really if you work in a job with heightened risk, you are better off with training on de escalation and the precursors to violent acts, identifying your own victim profile, learning some valid self defense for "what ifs" etc. There are places i've lived where I might consider owning one if I were forced to live there again, but if someone is really concerned with a good safety/self defense plan a thing like owning a gun should actually be pretty be low on the list. IMO most people who think they own one for "self defense" (not all ,just most) are either missing information, or are engaged in fantasy, plenty do not want to admit that. When I meet middle class white people who have never been mugged or beat up, have no connection to crime, let alone shot at, robbed etc., and do not work in a job that would heighten their risk and they are concerned with "self defense" for crimes they are in practically the lowest risk category for...something is a little off.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mantrik » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:04 am

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:40 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:50 pm
Depends if you could persuade the cops that it was a religious object. Dildo Khyentse ?
Tell them you are going to a Maheshvara empowerment. LOTR had a large wooden cock, which belonged to Dudjom Rinpoche, it was handed to me to give blessings with during an empowerment.
Not from Heka LInga then? ;)

Wonder what the history of it was. Maybe a Siva connection?

The student protest with the sex toys is brilliant. I just hope some redneck thugs don't attack them.
The USA is a country where (from what I see here) the police are institutionally corrupt and violent, so protests can be violently quelled by thugs without any police interference.
Let's face it, when they begin a visit to your home by shooting your dog, and shoot people on the street with their hands above their heads, the gun-toting police themselves seem to be a major menace.
It's developing in the UK , as street misuse of tasers by police becomes widespread and they are increasingly armed with pistols and rifles.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by mañjughoṣamaṇi » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:39 am

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:04 am
The USA is a country where (from what I see here) the police are institutionally corrupt and violent, so protests can be violently quelled by thugs without any police interference.
It's more likely that the police actively interfere on the side of right wing thugs. Even at peaceful counter-protests, they are more likely to kettle the counter-protesters than right wing hate groups. I was at several protests against fascist groups last year where this happened.
སེམས་རྣམ་པར་གྲོལ་བར་བྱའི་ཕྱིར་བྱམས་པ་བསྒོམ་པར་བྱའོ།
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mantrik » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:35 am

mañjughoṣamaṇi wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:39 am
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:04 am
The USA is a country where (from what I see here) the police are institutionally corrupt and violent, so protests can be violently quelled by thugs without any police interference.
It's more likely that the police actively interfere on the side of right wing thugs. Even at peaceful counter-protests, they are more likely to kettle the counter-protesters than right wing hate groups. I was at several protests against fascist groups last year where this happened.
I was just replying to someone who deleted their post, but who was essentially saying that the police they know are good guys. I have some good and some bad experiences, and see the same in armed forces, close protection personnel, and in many other areas of public service.
I can accept that, but sadly, performing routine law enforcement with kindness one day does not mean the very same cops won't also be corrupt and violent the next.
I checked a college for bombs during the IRA attacks when a warning was received, as did the US cops mentioned as an example in the post I was replying to. That's what people did, who otherwise may be vicious bastards - people aren't consistent. Of course there are good cops, but because they are universally armed to the teeth and in a position of power, the police are always a potential source of violence.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:52 am

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:04 am
Wonder what the history of it was. Maybe a Siva connection?
Well, phallus worship is pretty common in Bhutan. Drukpa Kunley and all that...

Maheshvara IS Shiva, as I do believe you well know.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mantrik » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:49 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:52 am
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:04 am
Wonder what the history of it was. Maybe a Siva connection?
Well, phallus worship is pretty common in Bhutan. Drukpa Kunley and all that...

Maheshvara IS Shiva, as I do believe you well know.
No, I haven't come across that name before. :)
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:54 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:49 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:52 am
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:04 am
Wonder what the history of it was. Maybe a Siva connection?
Well, phallus worship is pretty common in Bhutan. Drukpa Kunley and all that...

Maheshvara IS Shiva, as I do believe you well know.
No, I haven't come across that name before. :)
Maha Ishvara (Maheshvara), it is an epithet for Shiva meaning the Great (Maha) Supreme Being/Ruler (Ishvara).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mantrik » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:19 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:54 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:49 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:52 am
Well, phallus worship is pretty common in Bhutan. Drukpa Kunley and all that...

Maheshvara IS Shiva, as I do believe you well know.
No, I haven't come across that name before. :)
Maha Ishvara (Maheshvara), it is an epithet for Shiva meaning the Great (Maha) Supreme Being/Ruler (Ishvara).
Ah , Maha Ishvara is familiar, with Vishnu. Poor old Brahma probably fits the bill too, but gets little attention these days.

But yes, relating to having an excuse to carry a phallus, it applies in the UK to all manner of objects which the police may decide at a whim to deem 'weapons'. Such a stark contrast with a culture where the President encourages people to be armed.

I recall a friend being arrested in NY because he was clearly suspicious.......he was in a posh store but had no driving licence. How long, I wonder, before you can get arrested in the US for not having a gun; clearly abberrant behaviour.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Nemo » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:51 pm

America is weird. You think being forced to pee in a cup by an employer while they watch is ok but if someone wants to interfere with your ability to shoot paper targets on your day off to prevent school children from being mass murdered they are infringing on your rights.

A US tech company asked if I would give a sample here in Canada. I told HR literally to f#ck off. They cancelled the initiative the following day. My job was unaffected. HR didn't want to pee in a cup either. A month later one of them forwarded me an email from Head Office. It said something like, "In Canada the HR department is facing a radically different legislative framework and unique human resource issues."

I also find it hard not to see this as a gender issue in the USA. I see almost no women acting stupid with guns but I do see too many with bullet holes. The fragile, racist, cowardly men you are creating is your problem. I think men in the US should lose their toys until they grow up. Women on the other hand seem mature enough for the responsibility.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by mañjughoṣamaṇi » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:03 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:35 am
I was just replying to someone who deleted their post, but who was essentially saying that the police they know are good guys. I have some good and some bad experiences, and see the same in armed forces, close protection personnel, and in many other areas of public service.
I can accept that, but sadly, performing routine law enforcement with kindness one day does not mean the very same cops won't also be corrupt and violent the next.
Right. My extended family has an unfortunately high number of police. The issue isn't whether there are cops with 'good hearts' or whatever since we can all engage alternately in virtuous or non-virtuous behavior, but that being a cop is a job and structurally they fill a role which doesn't benefit everyone, and is actively hostile to many.
སེམས་རྣམ་པར་གྲོལ་བར་བྱའི་ཕྱིར་བྱམས་པ་བསྒོམ་པར་བྱའོ།
“In order to completely liberate the mind, cultivate loving kindness.” -- Maitribhāvana Sūtra

"The bottom always falls out of the quest for the elementary. The irreducibly individual recedes like the horizon, as our analysis advances." -- Genesis, Michel Serres

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:32 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:19 pm
How long, I wonder, before you can get arrested in the US for not having a gun; clearly abberrant behaviour.
There are towns in the US where the head of household is legally required to own and keep a gun in the home, for example, Kennesaw, GA.
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The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mantrik » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:32 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:19 pm
How long, I wonder, before you can get arrested in the US for not having a gun; clearly abberrant behaviour.
There are towns in the US where the head of household is legally required to own and keep a gun in the home, for example, Kennesaw, GA.
Understandable in Switzerland, where they are military reservists, but in US households one wonders how many intruders are shot and how many are used to kill each other.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:17 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:05 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:32 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:19 pm
How long, I wonder, before you can get arrested in the US for not having a gun; clearly abberrant behaviour.
There are towns in the US where the head of household is legally required to own and keep a gun in the home, for example, Kennesaw, GA.
Understandable in Switzerland, where they are military reservists, but in US households one wonders how many intruders are shot and how many are used to kill each other.
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion- ... story.html
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by DGA » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:53 pm

Nemo wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:51 pm
America is weird. You think being forced to pee in a cup by an employer while they watch is ok but if someone wants to interfere with your ability to shoot paper targets on your day off to prevent school children from being mass murdered they are infringing on your rights.

A US tech company asked if I would give a sample here in Canada. I told HR literally to f#ck off. They cancelled the initiative the following day. My job was unaffected. HR didn't want to pee in a cup either. A month later one of them forwarded me an email from Head Office. It said something like, "In Canada the HR department is facing a radically different legislative framework and unique human resource issues."

I also find it hard not to see this as a gender issue in the USA. I see almost no women acting stupid with guns but I do see too many with bullet holes. The fragile, racist, cowardly men you are creating is your problem. I think men in the US should lose their toys until they grow up. Women on the other hand seem mature enough for the responsibility.
I have observed a number of shots fired in my neighborhood. With one exception, these have been accidental discharges. Grandma forgot she had her piece in her purse and shot a hole in the floor again... these sorts of scenarios.

When my mom was in her early 20s, she had to move back in with her parents (briefly). She kept a .38 saturday night special revolver under her bed. One night, she went out dancing. Her aunt somehow found the weapon and took it, got profoundly drunk, and came back home and shot up the living room of the house. It's a good thing my mom was out partying because one of those shots penetrated through a wall and tore up the pillow where her head would have been had she been asleep.

Yeah, men are stupid with weapons, but in my own limited sphere of observation, I know of plenty of women who are untrustworthy with firearms.

Generally, intoxicants, mental illness, and repeating weapons DO NOT MIX.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by DGA » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:00 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:44 am
Disclosure: I was encouraged to get a gun for self protection when I was living in a really high crime area in South Central LA. I have some crazy stories, but I learned that if you aren't involving yourself with gangs and drugs, you really don't have anything to fear.

As it turned out, I never had reason to use a gun to defend myself, ever. I realized the nature of crime and gun violence was that most innocent people don't need one for protection.

This is my guilty confession post. :?
Here's mine, although I feel no guilt and have nothing to confess:

I like to shoot firearms. Specifically, I like to put holes in paper at a distance, with a bang.

I own two firearms. One of them is a handgun my grandfather brought back as a war prize after the US and the Soviets pulled Europe's head out of its own ass. The other is a sniper rifle (modified Mosin Nagant) my uncle, an Army Ranger, brought back as a war prize from Vietnam. Both of these are stored at my father's house, in a safe, a few thousand miles away from where my daughter can reach them. Neither of these weapons go to the range. When I shoot targets, I borrow one of my dad's pieces (this makes him happy and gives me an opportunity to supervise his own shooting).

With that said, in a few years' time I will ensure that my daughter knows what to do when she encounters a firearm. I think this is a survival skill in the US. I don't want her to panic when there's a gun around; similarly, I want her to understand the gravity of the situation when someone is playing stupid games with a lethal toy. I want her to know how to defuse a potentially unsafe situation. She needs to know this and the only way to learn is through practical familiarity with the routines of gun safety. If she wants to learn to shoot, then we will enroll her in a safety course that we feel comfortable with. If not, that's good.

I think this is a kind of vaccine against becoming a gun nut. Or I hope it may be.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mantrik » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:17 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:05 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:32 pm


There are towns in the US where the head of household is legally required to own and keep a gun in the home, for example, Kennesaw, GA.
Understandable in Switzerland, where they are military reservists, but in US households one wonders how many intruders are shot and how many are used to kill each other.
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion- ... story.html
Not much comfort there for Trump's view that arming teachers would prevent lunatic killers.

''The ratio for 2012, per the Violence Policy Center, was one justifiable killing for every 32 murders, suicides or accidental deaths.'' Not to mention the guns owned by scared hosueholders which may get stolen or used to kill them in the process.

People in the UK try to equate the US gun problem with UK knife crime. If you train for many years you may be able to avoid death against a trained knife attacker, if you are also trained and have a knife to hand. I wonder how that compares with two guys armed with assault rifles.......could Trump's scenario of a teacher armed with a concealed carry pistol have any chance? What if he had an assault rifle 'in his locker', was somehow able to reach it, prepare, and face the attacker, what then? Would he too need years of training to stand a chance?
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by DGA » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:04 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:07 am
shaunc wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:50 am

Yeah, generally speaking the crooks only kill each other.
Exactly. Although they may be poor shots, hence innocent bystanders in drive by's.
^^^This.

The truth is that it's difficult to shoot accurately with a sidearm (pistol or revolver), especially when you are in self-defense mode (adrenaline is a helluva drug). If you in a position where you need a sidearm, you are already in deep, deep yogurt. You are very likely to harm yourself or an unintended target instead of whomever it is that may be in a position to harm you.

The only exception is suicide. Generally, if you want to die, your aim is true. This is a form of gun violence that doesn't get enough attention, IMO.

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