deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

[Thomas Amundsen]

Lots of people grew up with BB guns, archery, slingshots, and shooting old beer cans without needing AR 15's, bit of a red herring. Whatever the ethical questions of buying one's kid a BB gun (and sure, there are some), I think it's a bit of stretch to connect them to the current crisis. I get the point you are trying to make, but it seems a bit puritanical.

It is puritanical, but I think that's the point. I basically agree with JustSit. Sure, people grew up with BB guns, etc. I did, too. But I don't think there's really anything beneficial about that. If anything, it helps indoctrinate one into NRA guns culture. I eventually got HUGE into guns and tanks and stuff around age 13-16. I was bringing home books from school about military weapons, bullets, etc. That's definitely related to growing up with BB guns and toy guns, hunting etc. I don't see anything positive about it now.

I think it's missing the forest for the trees to get puritanical about that stuff, it also makes me wonder if the people complaining are parents themselves, once you actually have children you realize how complicated dealing with "I want x" is, it isn't as black and white as your decisions about toys and activities producing a predictable outcome.

No, I'm not a parent. But I have memories of my own childhood that paint a specific picture of what gun culture in the US is. How close are you to families that are steeped in US gun culture?

My dad was a hunter, and all of his best friends and my uncles were hunters and gun enthusiasts. On my 5th or 6th birthday, my uncle gave me a cap gun. I never asked for that. On my 8th or 9th birthday, a different uncle gave me a BB gun. On my 10th, my dad gave me a shotgun. I never asked for any of those guns. They were given to me and I was encouraged to enjoy guns, shooting, hunting, etc. They want their little hunting/gun buddies. It's a culture that children are indoctrinated into from a young age. From age 10 onward, I was really big into guns and would ask for them on my own volition. Young boys look up to their father, his friends, their uncles. If all of them are big into guns, it's pretty much a given that boy is going to think that guns are cool and want to shoot stuff. These children, girls included, grow into people who use assault weapons as a hobby. My sister is building an AR-15 at home right now.

I also don't equate learning something like archery or target shooting with creating a tendency towards violence itself, which requires a desire to dominate, control, and harm.. and not only an implement.

Not all of it is bad. But I honestly don't see any redeeming qualities. That makes it an overall negative in my eyes.

[DNS]

just a note here..in Canada you can apply for a gun license for hunting or for shooting holes in paper targets.
BUT!!! if you say in the interview you need one for protection...finished! ..not a chance of receiving the license ..
the words protection if used in any way ends any chance of getting the license...

But, what if someone just lied (not that anyone should lie) and said they were using it for hunting or target/sport? And then used it for illegal purposes...

Canada has one of the highest rates of gun ownership, number 10 in the world:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated ... by_country

It's not as high as the U.S., which wins that title easily in the number 1 spot, but Canada still has a relatively high rate of gun ownership, but not so much in the mass shooting events. The difference appears to be the culture (or at least one of the major factors), which you noted in your subsequent post and I believe Michael Moore did too in his Columbine documentary.

[Johnny Dangerous]

No, I'm not a parent. But I have memories of my own childhood that paint a specific picture of what gun culture in the US is. How close are you to families that are steeped in US gun culture?

I grew up in the Southwest (New Mexico) part of my family being libertarian ranchers, so i'd say pretty close. I chose not to hunt, but I did sum shootin'. There is no true monolithic "gun culture" in the US, there is a spectrum of types of people who own guns, some of whom are deeply wedded to and influenced by NRA rhetoric, some of whom are less attached - that should go without saying. How people talk about guns and gun control I've found is very different when they are not in a public forum as well.

My dad was a hunter, and all of his best friends and my uncles were hunters and gun enthusiasts. On my 5th or 6th birthday, my uncle gave me a cap gun. I never asked for that. On my 8th or 9th birthday, a different uncle gave me a BB gun. On my 10th, my dad gave me a shotgun. I never asked for any of those guns. They were given to me and I was encouraged to enjoy guns, shooting, hunting, etc. It's a culture that children are indoctrinated into from a young age. From age 10 onward, I was really big into guns and would ask for them on my own volition. Young boys look up to their father, his friends, their uncles. If all of them are big into guns, it's pretty much a given that boy is going to think that guns are cool and want to shoot stuff. These children, girls included, grow into people who use assault weapons as a hobby. My sister is building an AR-15 at home right now.

I'm not saying it's positive to own firearms, I don't think it is. However, I think you are still failing to recognize that even with the faults of this culture (which again is not monolithic), it is grossly unfair to assume that gun ownership (much less slingshots, archery, or BB guns) creates violent people, even if their obsession with firearms itself is unhealthy. Do you consider your sister and family violent people, or do you consider them people who have a skewed perspective on gun rights? It is not a trivial distinction. Do I need to explain that regardless of views on gun control, the vast majority of gun owners are not violent?

What I am trying to point out here is not that I think it's positive to own guns (again, I do not, and I can't imagine wanting to in any but the most dire circumstances). What I am trying to point out is that the idea that kids playing with BB guns necessarily creates people who do violence or are violent has no evidence base behind it at all. If it did, there would be far *more* mass shootings than there are. It is no different than arguments about violent video games creating violent people..a lazy argument with no evidence behind it.

Not all of it is bad. But I honestly don't see any redeeming qualities. That makes it an overall negative in my eyes.

What is "it"? Gun culture? Again, that has changed in my life time drastically, and will continue to, it is not a monolith, nor is it one "type" of person who owns or interacts with guns, in my experience. Again I'm not trying to redeem "gun culture", but to point out a flaw in the implicit thinking that violent impulses spring substantially from hobbies and recreation alone.

[Thomas Amundsen]

Do you consider your sister and family violent people, or do you consider them people who have a skewed perspective on gun rights?

Without going into too much personal details or gossip, yes. And I definitely used to be a violent person.

What I am trying to point out here is not that I think it's positive to own guns (again, I do not, and I can't imagine wanting to in any but the most dire circumstances). What I am trying to point out is that the idea that kids playing with BB guns necessarily creates people who do violence or are violent has no evidence base behind it at all.

No, it doesn't necessarily produce violent people. But I think it does sometimes. And that if the gun culture didn't exist, I think there would be a lot less gun violence, like in other cultures around the world...

Not all of it is bad. But I honestly don't see any redeeming qualities. That makes it an overall negative in my eyes.

What is "it"? Gun culture? Again, that has changed in my life time drastically, and will continue to, it is not a monolith, nor is it one "type" of person who owns or interacts with guns, in my experience.

That to me sounds like saying "Baskin Robbins doesn't just sell ice cream, there's 32 flavors!" It all is ultimately connected to manufacturing, trading, and shooting guns. I don't think this has a positive impact on the world overall.

[Grigoris]

So what is the benefit of owning an assault rifle?

When we were young we used to own BB guns. We used to kill random birds with them. One time a friend shot me with a BB gun. Another time somebody sniped on us with a high power BB gun, when we were playing in the school yard.

Then we would hunt (kill) rabbits with shotguns and bolt action rifles.

Then during my anti-Nazi days I chased a couple of Nazis down a suburban street armed with a rifle. I would have shot them if I had found them.

Then I had to go serve in the army...

I still own a shotgun, even though I don't hunt. Don't know why. Paranoia mainly. It is in storage somewhere. Where? Even I don't know since my dad stashed it. I want to find it and dedicate it to my Dharmapala. Put it in a sealed box under the statue.

I agree with Tom: it is a slow and steady inculcation, that begins with something seemingly benign and then develops from there.

Samurai used to do the same thing with their sons: Start them off killing strays. Then move up to executing criminals. Then enter a battle situation.

I agree with Tom: there is not much real use to it, except for training murderers.

[DNS]

Then during my anti-Nazi days I chased a couple of Nazis down a suburban street armed with a rifle. I would have shot them if I had found them.

I'm glad you didn't catch them.

It's interesting to hear the different upbringing stories of members here and it shows just how much it is ingrained in the various cultures.

I was born and raised on U.S. military bases, where guns were always seen as 'normal' and necessary. Toy guns were given as presents and neighborhood friends and I would play war games on base grounds.

My father and grandfather taught me gun safety, how to shoot rifles, pistols. We never hunted and I've never been hunting, never had any desire to either (Jews don't hunt, they see it as a redneck activity). We only shot at paper targets and tin cans. Later when I went to Univ. of Texas, marksmanship training was offered as a physical education (sport) class for college credit, so I enrolled in that (shooting various guns and ammo right on campus at the indoor gun range). And then after finishing my degrees, I did some years in law enforcement.

[DGA]

just a note here..in Canada you can apply for a gun license for hunting or for shooting holes in paper targets.
BUT!!! if you say in the interview you need one for protection...finished! ..not a chance of receiving the license ..
the words protection if used in any way ends any chance of getting the license...

But, what if someone just lied (not that anyone should lie) and said they were using it for hunting or target/sport? And then used it for illegal purposes...

Canada has one of the highest rates of gun ownership, number 10 in the world:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated ... by_country

It's not as high as the U.S., which wins that title easily in the number 1 spot, but Canada still has a relatively high rate of gun ownership, but not so much in the mass shooting events. The difference appears to be the culture (or at least one of the major factors), which you noted in your subsequent post and I believe Michael Moore did too in his Columbine documentary.

Population density is a factor. Canada is the planet's second-largest country by area, but has a lower human population than the state of California. Spread people out and they shoot each other less often.

[DGA]

It took less than a decade for the majority of Americans to change their minds from opposing marriage equality for same-sex couples, to supporting it. Does this mean all Americans are in favor of marriage equality? No, but it did signal a fast and dramatic shift after many decades of struggle and agitation to change minds. I am cautiously optimistic that attitudes are changing at least that quickly with regard to firearms.

I should admit the legalization of gay marriage happened rather quickly considering the opposition from right-wing Christian groups which was a pleasant surprise and we even 'beat' so many other countries on that one, legalizing it sooner than so many other nations.

Guns, however are so entrenched in U.S. culture, not sure if that will follow the same course; but you never know. As I pointed out in one of my earlier posts here, even the Dems are pro-gun rights (go hunting, receive money from NRA) not all of them, but a sizable number and percentage. 15 Dem Party U.S. Senators voted down an assault weapons ban (not a total gun ban, just an assault weapons ban).

So if there's not going to be a total ban, it might be best to look at some compromise positions; including tougher background checks, longer waiting periods, registration, licensing, requiring safety courses, banning certain types of guns, sniper rifles, etc. Right now, I believe most states don't even require a gun safety course unless one is applying for a concealed carry permit.

I agree that guns are deeply entrenched in US culture, much like homophobia (going back to the analogy I was making). With that said, the AR-15 or AK-47 specifically, or the UZI for that matter (in spite of what a Reagan biographer might say), are not deeply entrenched in US culture. That's where the area of flexibility will be.

I don't think anyone is proposing a ban on grandpa's duck gun or your uncle's .308 Savage rifle. I think restrictions on assault weapons may become plausible again. Remember the Brady Bill?

[Johnny Dangerous]

I agree with Tom: it is a slow and steady inculcation, that begins with something seemingly benign and then develops from there.

What is?" Target shooting, hunting?Whose hunting then, does Native American's hunting count as "slow inculcation" to violent behavior? Playing with slingshots? Shooting paper wads? Where is the line where it becomes inculcation towards violence? If this is so particularly in America, why are their not more gun owners massacring people?

Samurai used to do the same thing with their sons: Start them off killing strays. Then move up to executing criminals. Then enter a battle situation.

The Samurai were the top end of a feudal system wherein (ironically) the civilian ownership of the weapons they brandished was often banned, not even a vaguely parallel example , much less analogous.

I agree with Tom: there is not much real use to it, except for training murderers.

Then why are their not more murderers amongst the humongous population of people in the US who own firearms?

As to weapons like the AR 15, I agree there is no point, my discussion never even touched on that.

[shaunc]

There's no need to be puritanical about it. Just ban semi-automatic rifles and shotguns as well as all handguns.
I don't think anyone wants to stop people hunting or target shooting, they just want to stop people shooting each other.

[Kim O'Hara]

just a note here..in Canada you can apply for a gun license for hunting or for shooting holes in paper targets.
BUT!!! if you say in the interview you need one for protection...finished! ..not a chance of receiving the license ..
the words protection if used in any way ends any chance of getting the license...

But, what if someone just lied (not that anyone should lie) and said they were using it for hunting or target/sport? And then used it for illegal purposes...

Canada has one of the highest rates of gun ownership, number 10 in the world:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated ... by_country

It's not as high as the U.S., which wins that title easily in the number 1 spot, but Canada still has a relatively high rate of gun ownership, but not so much in the mass shooting events. The difference appears to be the culture (or at least one of the major factors), which you noted in your subsequent post and I believe Michael Moore did too in his Columbine documentary.

Population density is a factor. Canada is the planet's second-largest country by area, but has a lower human population than the state of California. Spread people out and they shoot each other less often.

Nice try, but nonsense. Remember the Grand Myth of the US? The Western mythology, that is - the Lone Ranger and the rest. It comes from a time and place when population density was as low as it is now in Canada and (for that matter) Australia ... neither of which fetishised the vigilante or had anything much to do with hand-guns, then or later.
While we're here ...

canadians.jpg (117.85 KiB) Viewed 679 times

(That goes for Australia, too.)


Kim

[DGA]

But, what if someone just lied (not that anyone should lie) and said they were using it for hunting or target/sport? And then used it for illegal purposes...

Canada has one of the highest rates of gun ownership, number 10 in the world:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated ... by_country

It's not as high as the U.S., which wins that title easily in the number 1 spot, but Canada still has a relatively high rate of gun ownership, but not so much in the mass shooting events. The difference appears to be the culture (or at least one of the major factors), which you noted in your subsequent post and I believe Michael Moore did too in his Columbine documentary.

Population density is a factor. Canada is the planet's second-largest country by area, but has a lower human population than the state of California. Spread people out and they shoot each other less often.

Nice try, but nonsense. Remember the Grand Myth of the US? The Western mythology, that is - the Lone Ranger and the rest. It comes from a time and place when population density was as low as it is now in Canada and (for that matter) Australia ... neither of which fetishised the vigilante or had anything much to do with hand-guns, then or later.

Sorry, but while I mostly agree with your sentiment, your argument doesn't follow.

1. the "grand myth" you refer to, with regard to the Lone Ranger, is a product of Hollywood in the age of radio, not of the actual experience of life in the Western US in the 1870s.

2. do you have any evidence regarding mass shootings in the Western US in the 1870s?

3. As I said, population density is a factor. That means one factor out of many. You seem to assume I am claiming it is the only factor.

4. Are you actually claiming that Canada has had no mass shootings? Here is a summary of mass shootings in Canada since the 1960s.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/01/30 ... 98292.html

It's true (and excellent) that Canada has experienced proportionately fewer mass shooting incidents than the US has. Good for them.

Now, here's how I would rebut the post I wrote and you responded to. Do I have any evidence in support of my claim that a greatly reduced population density is a factor? No. It's just an opinion based on what I know of mammalian behavior, and Malthus.

[Minobu]

just a note here..in Canada you can apply for a gun license for hunting or for shooting holes in paper targets.
BUT!!! if you say in the interview you need one for protection...finished! ..not a chance of receiving the license ..
the words protection if used in any way ends any chance of getting the license...

But, what if someone just lied (not that anyone should lie) and said they were using it for hunting or target/sport? And then used it for illegal purposes...

Canada has one of the highest rates of gun ownership, number 10 in the world:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated ... by_country

It's not as high as the U.S., which wins that title easily in the number 1 spot, but Canada still has a relatively high rate of gun ownership, but not so much in the mass shooting events. The difference appears to be the culture (or at least one of the major factors), which you noted in your subsequent post and I believe Michael Moore did too in his Columbine documentary.

Well of course they lie...even if it is said it is for hunting and target practice....people buy guns to protect themselves.

and kill people in mass shootings

list of mass shootings in Canada

the most recent are at the bottom...a mosque and women were murdered enmasse.

[Minobu]

It's interesting to hear the different upbringing stories of members here and it shows just how much it is ingrained in the various cultures.

I was born and raised on U.S. military bases, where guns were always seen as 'normal' and necessary. Toy guns were given as presents and neighborhood friends and I would play war games on base grounds.

I tend to view my life and see the flaws in it that go against Buddhist training.

training i hope have had in past lives and hope will appear in all future lives.

As a kid i grew up in this government project originally built for veterans. basically a ghetto project for poor. We were not poor me old man was like some black sheep escaping from the upper classes to live a beat nik lifestyle of the poor and the bohemian.

anyways he was in WWII in the medical branch...there is stuff i'm sure my father was ,do to a relationship with buddhism in the past.

I wonder about buddhist who kill people in wars and animals and stuff. sort of for me a flaw in their sentient being ance ...like where is that getting into your mind stream..of course I'm a nichirenista and have our own ideas ...

so yeah playing army was the biggest past time in this Vet Haven , and fire crackers were a big toy...breaking them in half and fire blasting ants was a pastime of mine for awhile.mini flame thrower....again ..how did this get into my mindstream...being a kid surrounded by people of war and children of them is no excuse .

where as my father never killed anything or anyone even being in a war...i tortured ants...most disturbing...something to work on...and be aware of...

[Grigoris]

What is?" Target shooting, hunting?Whose hunting then, does Native American's hunting count as "slow inculcation" to violent behavior?

You are comparing sports hunting in the modern era with hunting for survival by indigenous people? BTW the amount of low-level conflict between (some) indigenous people tends to point towards culture with a noticeable degree of violence.

Where is the line where it becomes inculcation towards violence?

I think you are more than capable of finding the line. If you want to.

If this is so particularly in America, why are their not more gun owners massacring people?

Because some of them go off to massacre people in imperialist wars. Others become police and kill unarmed poor people. Some kill themselves. Some kill their loved ones. Some become gang bangers and kill each other. Some become volunteer border posse and kill Mexicans. Ad nauseum.

The Samurai were the top end of a feudal system wherein (ironically) the civilian ownership of the weapons they brandished was often banned, not even a vaguely parallel example , much less analogous.

Are you being intentionally obtuse? The point with the samurai example is how one inculcates people into a culture of violence. The particular point was not about weapon ownership per se.

[Grigoris]

2. do you have any evidence regarding mass shootings in the Western US in the 1870s?

Ask the Indians dude.

[Minobu]

2. do you have any evidence regarding mass shootings in the Western US in the 1870s?

Ask the Indians dude.

technically that was about the Indian wars and massacerring them for land and freedom of the whites.

although that whole culture carries through US history with murdering blacks in KKK fashion...hanging blacks from trees and burning them for white power.

the whole bringing the american dream and democratizing the world to make for good economic trading partners buying into the dream

[DGA]

2. do you have any evidence regarding mass shootings in the Western US in the 1870s?

Ask the Indians dude.

You saw where I was going with that.

In fairness, though, the massacres of Native people, which sometimes involved the use of firearms but often didn't (bullets were expensive), are different qualitatively from the Random Shooter problem. The former is a systematic project of what we now call genocide. The latter isn't genocide.

Important reading:

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1453274146

[Mantrik]

2. do you have any evidence regarding mass shootings in the Western US in the 1870s?

Ask the Indians dude.

technically that was about the Indian wars and massacerring them for land and freedom of the whites.

although that whole culture carries through US history with murdering blacks in KKK fashion...hanging blacks from trees and burning them for white power.

the whole bringing the american dream and democratizing the world to make for good economic trading partners buying into the dream

One wonders if the desire to massacre people is actually much different. It is probably worsened by the two extremes - isolation from a group (of targets) and support within a group (of fellow killers).

[justsit]

Dick’s, Major Gun Retailer, Will Stop Selling Assault-Style Rifles
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/busi ... ifles.html

A step in the right direction, as a direct result of Parkland:
"...immediately ending sales of all assault-style rifles in its stores.
The retailer also said that it would no longer sell high-capacity magazines and that it would not sell any gun to anyone under 21 years of age, regardless of local laws...."

“When we saw what happened in Parkland, we were so disturbed and upset,” Mr. Stack said in an interview Tuesday evening. “We love these kids and their rallying cry, ‘enough is enough.’ It got to us.”

He added, “We’re going to take a stand and step up and tell people our view and, hopefully, bring people along into the conversation.”