Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

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Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Mantrik » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:44 am

A British Government minister has announced the policy to kill those British Citizens who went to fight for Daesh overseas.
Alternatives have been discussed, such as refusing them re-entry and/or citizenship, but is killing the best way to assure the future safety of the UK?

Killing people who are definitely seeking to kill others presents one moral dilemma. Killing people who may or may not be sufficiently 'radicalised' to kill in the future is very different, especially using drones to kill them as they seek escape after defeat in battle.

Part of me thinks such killing is very wrong. The other part thinks that, having been in terrorist bombings, I want to reduce that risk.

But would it reduce the risk of bombings, knife attacks, truck attacks etc. ? It may actually stir sleeper cells in the UK into more action rather than reduce the risks. A scan of the news reveals that other governments are also feeling that killing is the best option to prevent the fighters returning home.

I wonder if governments would have been so open about it pre-Trump. He has, after all, made bellicose policy announcements so frequently people from other nations may now more easily accept the same from their own governments.

As usual, the solution is far from simple.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -hf3bwhxc3
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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Dan74 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:23 am

It seems to me there are some important assumptions in the OP, which may or may not be true in individual cases, or even likely to be true.

One is that these people were 'definitely seeking to kill others'. I suspect that in many if not most cases this isn't how they think of it anymore than the Spanish Civil War volunteers did who we have much less trouble describing as 'freedom fighters'. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist, as the saying goes. But granted that their reasons are deluded, the motivation itself may be quite far from 'seeking to kill others.'

Second is the assumption that upom return, these people would want to harm their fellow citizens. Perhaps some would want to return with this express purpose but others may regret their mistake of ever going and even be willing to share their experience in order to stem radicalisation.

I think Denmark, for one, has been adopting a rather different approach: Aarhus Program for Returning Jihadists ... uccess ...

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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Mantrik » Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:46 am

Dan74 wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:23 am
It seems to me there are some important assumptions in the OP, which may or may not be true in individual cases, or even likely to be true.

One is that these people were 'definitely seeking to kill others'. I suspect that in many if not most cases this isn't how they think of it anymore than the Spanish Civil War volunteers did who we have much less trouble describing as 'freedom fighters'. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist, as the saying goes. But granted that their reasons are deluded, the motivation itself may be quite far from 'seeking to kill others.'

Second is the assumption that upom return, these people would want to harm their fellow citizens. Perhaps some would want to return with this express purpose but others may regret their mistake of ever going and even be willing to share their experience in order to stem radicalisation.

I think Denmark, for one, has been adopting a rather different approach: Aarhus Program for Returning Jihadists ... uccess ...
Yes, I can only imagine that they would rather have them dead than take a chance. In parts of the EU there is free movement, so unless all those countries which are 'borderless' agree to a single policy, it will be pointless anyway.
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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Dan74 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:02 am

Well, why stop there? Mandatory death sentence for murderers, who unlike most Daesh people have intentionally killed their fellow citizens already and who are at the risk of killing again. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth... On y va!

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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Mantrik » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:31 am

Dan74 wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:02 am
Well, why stop there? Mandatory death sentence for murderers, who unlike most Daesh people have intentionally killed their fellow citizens already and who are at the risk of killing again. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth... On y va!
Politicians are rarely consistent individually or collectively in government, let alone across nations. If we examine recent history it appears that governments have been helpless to prevent some of the Daesh attacks taking place, and very embarrassed about it.

In their minds maybe:

In the category of 'something must be done' this is perhaps the one thing governments can demonstrate as measurable action. They are also mindful that quite a few of the UK Daesh cells went abroad fro training and returned with skills to make bombs etc. Those returning after military experience are likely to have an even wider set of deadly skills.

Execution by armed forces avoids the inconvenience of imprisonment, trails and establishing guilt. However, it is no longer so easy to avoid scrutiny, so the quicker someone is killed after battle, the less chance there is that people will complain that it is unjust. Once people are locked up, the evidence from Northern Ireland is that questions will be asked decades after a conflict ends.

Interment trumps internment in that logic.

Personally, I can see it panning out as unsuccessful..........they simply won't catch that many to kill, even with drones. It is also likely to trigger more attacks in the EU and USA (which I think has the same kill policy). Planes, trains and underground stations during the run up to Xmas may be best avoided.
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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Dan74 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:42 am

This may all be so.

Back in my younger days, I studied law at the University of Melbourne. Among other things, if I remember correctly, we were taught that law, especially Criminal Law, springs from Justice. A concept of 'Natural Law', a sort of a inherent justice, was canvassed, as, ultimately, a guarantor of our human rights, the right to a fair trial, equality under the law, for instance.

When governments kill their citizens who are engaged in a foreign land in activities the said government disapproves of, this to me, doesn't quite mess with these principles. Moreover, it is an attack not just on your justice system, by on the Human Rights of British citizens. Not a good path to follow, IMO.

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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Mantrik » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:54 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:42 am
This may all be so.

Back in my younger days, I studied law at the University of Melbourne. Among other things, if I remember correctly, we were taught that law, especially Criminal Law, springs from Justice. A concept of 'Natural Law', a sort of a inherent justice, was canvassed, as, ultimately, a guarantor of our human rights, the right to a fair trial, equality under the law, for instance.

When governments kill their citizens who are engaged in a foreign land in activities the said government disapproves of, this to me, doesn't quite mess with these principles. Moreover, it is an attack not just on your justice system, by on the Human Rights of British citizens. Not a good path to follow, IMO.
It probably breaches the Geneva Convention, the EU Human Rights legislation etc etc. but they won't care. We already have internment without trial, torture etc. ever since the days of the IRA. I do wonder if Trump really has had an effect whereby what was once done quietly is now seen as something to shout about, a macho bit of jingoism which the politicians think will play well at home. I wonder if they will be so confident when film emerges of British troops executing teenage girls who joined Daesh, and the body parts of children killed as 'collateral damage' as their parents are executed by drone. Methinks they will do all they can to hide such unpleasant reminders of their policy's effects.

I wonder at what point Buddhists would see killing as justified, if at all. At the moment the bomber reaches for the suicide belt detonator in a crowded train? At the moment the bomb factory is raided? At the moment the person is still abroad being trained to kill? Or when the person has joined a military conflict and has declared themselves willing to kill UK citizens? Or maybe, as this policy suggests, simply for joining an armed conflict and being deemed by the UK to be an enemy and therefore a combatant to be killed even in retreat to protect citizens at home in the future?

Of course, 'Buddhists' is a fairly useless definition, about as much use as defining 'Christians' when it comes to international conflict and violence between rival sects etc. Scripture can only go so far, and I've even see an interpretation of Ngakpa 14 Root Downfalls which claims killing someone about to kill others is a duty.
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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by DGA » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:49 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:44 am
A British Government minister has announced the policy to kill those British Citizens who went to fight for Daesh overseas.
Alternatives have been discussed, such as refusing them re-entry and/or citizenship, but is killing the best way to assure the future safety of the UK?

Killing people who are definitely seeking to kill others presents one moral dilemma. Killing people who may or may not be sufficiently 'radicalised' to kill in the future is very different, especially using drones to kill them as they seek escape after defeat in battle.

Part of me thinks such killing is very wrong. The other part thinks that, having been in terrorist bombings, I want to reduce that risk.

But would it reduce the risk of bombings, knife attacks, truck attacks etc. ? It may actually stir sleeper cells in the UK into more action rather than reduce the risks. A scan of the news reveals that other governments are also feeling that killing is the best option to prevent the fighters returning home.

I wonder if governments would have been so open about it pre-Trump. He has, after all, made bellicose policy announcements so frequently people from other nations may now more easily accept the same from their own governments.

As usual, the solution is far from simple.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -hf3bwhxc3
They (the Britons who fought for Daesh abroad) are likely more valuable alive than dead for intelligence purposes.

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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Grigoris » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:53 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:46 am
Yes, I can only imagine that they would rather have them dead than take a chance. In parts of the EU there is free movement, so unless all those countries which are 'borderless' agree to a single policy, it will be pointless anyway.
If we killed everybody that may, under the correct circumstances, act in a criminal manner, there wouldn't be many of us left alive, would there?

I think arresting them as they returned and judging them for war crimes, if they committed any, would be the right way to go about things. The (shallowest) democratic manner to deal with them.

Rehabilitation programs would be the best course of action. When you make an enemy a friend, they are no longer an enemy. Plus this would be an intelligent way to use their experiences to dissuade others from volunteering too. This would also reduce domestic attacks.
Last edited by Grigoris on Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Grigoris » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:57 pm

Oh yeah, armed forces personnel are also in foreign lands killing people. Should they be subject to the same treatment? I mean, they will come back with the same skill base as the Daseh fighters too, so why should we trust them? ;)
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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Jesse » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:33 pm

There are no reasonable answers. To arrive at one, would require a fundamental change in the way society works. At best you can hope to mitigate the damage.

Society is profoundly sick at every fundamental level. Trying to 'fix' a disease by treating it's symptoms, without fixing the root cause never works. At best it's a stop-gap.

For example:

You could let them back in and do nothing, and some percentage of them would go on to commit more violent acts. Some wouldn't.
You could kill them all, and become the exact thing you judged them to be, and thus become deserving of death yourself. (By that logic)
You could pick some middle ground, and put them in prison, or judge them on an individual basis; all of these end up being hypocritical though, as greg pointed out.. what about our soldiers returning from war, who literally just did the same things these guys did?

Ofc the reasoning is (us, and them) As long as we are ok, it's fine. That works, but only for so long. As I mentioned in the beginning, this is one of the root causes that breed this sort of dilemma in the first place. Funny ain't it.

I know you are not all from the USA, but many of you are from US Allied countries, so this is probably still relevant to you. If you think we are the good guys, and they the bad guys.. then read/watch this:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ ... cia-strike

We are not innocent of anything, they are not guilty of anything we don't do on a daily basis. We are simply protected from it to a large degree. Even protected from hearing about it.

I should probably stop before some government web crawler labels me a sympathizer, and adds me to a watch list, though. Cya all around. :heart:
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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Dan74 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:45 pm

In countries which do not extrajudicially execute their citizens, these guys get charged with a crime if they are suspected to have committed one and if not, the secret services keep a close eye on them. It is not such a big deal really, given there is a small handful.

But on the other hand, executions have always been fun. And drone strikes are so like a computer game!

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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Jesse » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:53 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:45 pm
In countries which do not extrajudicially execute their citizens, these guys get charged with a crime if they are suspected to have committed one and if not, the secret services keep a close eye on them. It is not such a big deal really, given there is a small handful.

But on the other hand, executions have always been fun. And drone strikes are so like a computer game!
Know what's sad? They recruit expert gamers because the interface to control these drones IS a computer game. Complete with crosshairs, and everything. It's just like playing a flight simulator fighting game. Soon humans won't even need to pull the trigger, AI already does most of the flight control, soon it will do the rest too.

https://www.goarmy.com/downloads/games.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpcmb-8mEMM

In fact, I recently got targeted advertisement for the DOD recruiting programmers to create AI Based games in Unity3d. (Software for creating games.) /vomit

I wonder how we in the USA/EU/Etc would feel if AI Controlled Death Bots were patrolling our skies 24/7, while killing what seemed like random people we loved, with no explanation, or accountability. I think we would be a little pissed too.
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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Mantrik » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:37 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:57 pm
Oh yeah, armed forces personnel are also in foreign lands killing people. Should they be subject to the same treatment? I mean, they will come back with the same skill base as the Daseh fighters too, so why should we trust them? ;)
Good question.

They say killing gets easier after the first few.

I don't have the answers here, just posing the questions which occur to me and trying to understand what our Govt is hoping to gain from publicising this.

After H Block in N Ireland, collusion with the USA overe rendition and Gauntanamo etc the record is hardly a glowing one. Their appetite seems to be to use a bullet or bomb rather than spending millions in incarcerating them, war crimes trials and endless appeals, in defending against an army of human rights lawyers who can spin things out for decades. I also guess they would not be too keen on answering their critics should just a dozen or so of these returning jihadists become active in UK massacres.

The mental health aspect is your speciality, but I'm not at all convinced that someone totally immersed in the Daesh system and active in torture and slaughter could ever easily be persuaded to give up jihad, so we're looking at turning those who may have been at the margins, maybe, and persuadable.
I wouldn't envy the person who has to separate the sheep from the wolves - very recently a civilian with a record clearly indicating homicidal potential was released from a secure psychiatric hospital in the UK and committed murder, even after having told the authorities in advance that he would do so. We'd be certain to screw up with jihadists too......but rather than picking up a kitchen knife they may build another train bomb. That would not help the Tories re-election chances, or Corbyn's if he plays the 'hug a jihadi' card.

Maybe the above reflects their thinking.................or maybe our Govt just envied Trump's bellicose swaggering and would quite like to distract us from Brexit (aka Breakshit) for a while.
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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Malcolm » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:02 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:54 pm
I wonder at what point Buddhists would see killing as justified, if at all.
When someone is an enemy of the Dharma and sentient beings, like Daesh, then it is justified.

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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:09 pm

Whoa.
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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Mantrik » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:02 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:54 pm
I wonder at what point Buddhists would see killing as justified, if at all.
When someone is an enemy of the Dharma and sentient beings, like Daesh, then it is justified.
Do you mean if they are close to completing the karma of killing, specifically?
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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Malcolm » Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:45 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:05 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:02 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:54 pm
I wonder at what point Buddhists would see killing as justified, if at all.
When someone is an enemy of the Dharma and sentient beings, like Daesh, then it is justified.
Do you mean if they are close to completing the karma of killing, specifically?
Daesh should be eliminated. They are exactly the kind of sentient beings that should be the object of the lower activity. It is the only compassionate way to deal with them.

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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Grigoris » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:04 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:45 pm
Daesh should be eliminated. They are exactly the kind of sentient beings that should be the object of the lower activity. It is the only compassionate way to deal with them.
I guess we should eliminate the Burmese government too. And the US government, I mean they have killed more people and destroyed more countries than Daesh ever will, even in their wildest wet dreams.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Malcolm » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:15 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:04 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:45 pm
Daesh should be eliminated. They are exactly the kind of sentient beings that should be the object of the lower activity. It is the only compassionate way to deal with them.
I guess we should eliminate the Burmese government too. And the US government, I mean they have killed more people and destroyed more countries than Daesh ever will, even in their wildest wet dreams.
I am sure if you think about it a little bit, you can really understand the difference.

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