Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

The best place for discussion of current events. News about Buddhists and Buddhism is particularly welcome.
User avatar
Dan74
Founding Member
Posts: 2232
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:59 pm
Location: Lyss, Switzerland

Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Dan74 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:29 pm

I think this view expressed by Malcolm here is so selfevidently repugnant on many levels, it doesn't require counterarguments.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 25476
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Malcolm » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:38 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:29 pm
I think this view expressed by Malcolm here is so selfevidently repugnant on many levels, it doesn't require counterarguments.
There are some sentient beings who are so harmful to other sentient beings the only compassionate thing to do is to liberate the former so they will not continue to harm the latter.

Fortunately, this fact has been recognized by the governments of the world and they are eliminating Daesh and its analogues as best they can. I support them in this. It is for the best.

Within Vajrayāna, there are ten criteria which must be fully met for a sentient being to be considered eligible for such liberation: 1) they harm the doctrine, 2) they despise the Three Jewels, 3) they rob the Sangha 4) they despise Mahāyāna 5) they harm the body of the guru, 6) they destroy the vajra family, 7) they cause obsctacles to practice, 8) they utterly lack love and compassion, 9) they are utterly divorced from samaya vows, and 10) they have a false view of the result of karma.

Those who belong to Daesh, as far as I am concerned, satisfy all ten.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

User avatar
Dan74
Founding Member
Posts: 2232
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:59 pm
Location: Lyss, Switzerland

Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Dan74 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:03 pm

It'll be a feat of serious sophistry to demonstrate that for each and every one of them, sight unseen. Seriously, Malcolm, you do a great deal of good. I hope you reconsider this. Look at what non-Buddhists do in Aarhus, Denmark, the success they've had in rehabilitating former Daesh people. And you would just give up on them and call for slaughter? Seems like a huge blind spot in compassion, let alone ethics and general sound policy.

Norwegian
Posts: 1043
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Norwegian » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:08 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:29 pm
I think this view expressed by Malcolm here is so selfevidently repugnant on many levels, it doesn't require counterarguments.
Malcolm's view expressed here has support in Tantra. I reckon your complete lack of knowledge of Tantric teachings and Tantric literature is the cause for your dismay. It's not more complicated than that.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 25476
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Malcolm » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:09 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:03 pm
It'll be a feat of serious sophistry to demonstrate that for each and every one of them, sight unseen. Seriously, Malcolm, you do a great deal of good. I hope you reconsider this. Look at what non-Buddhists do in Aarhus, Denmark, the success they've had in rehabilitating former Daesh people. And you would just give up on them and call for slaughter? Seems like a huge blind spot in compassion, let alone ethics and general sound policy.
I am talking about those who remain armed, who continue to fight and attempt to spread their evil creed. They have amply proven they will resort to genocide, etc. They would certainly harm any Buddhist they got their hands on.

And as far as those who have returned and have laid down arms, I would not trust them at all, and would make sure they were under constant surveillance. It is a crime in the US even to attempt to travel to join Daesh, as it should be in all civilized nations.

I am pretty liberal with respect to most things, but I have zero tolerance for Daesh.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

Norwegian
Posts: 1043
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Norwegian » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:12 pm

And as for rehabilitation, it sounds nice, but I have my doubts as to how you can truly "rehabilitate" someone who murdered a one year old boy, cooked him, and fed him to his mother, without her knowledge, then telling her after she ate the "food" served, that she had just eaten her own son:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 11216.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... child.html

User avatar
Virgo
Global Moderator
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Globe

Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Virgo » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:09 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:03 pm
It'll be a feat of serious sophistry to demonstrate that for each and every one of them, sight unseen. Seriously, Malcolm, you do a great deal of good. I hope you reconsider this. Look at what non-Buddhists do in Aarhus, Denmark, the success they've had in rehabilitating former Daesh people. And you would just give up on them and call for slaughter? Seems like a huge blind spot in compassion, let alone ethics and general sound policy.
I am talking about those who remain armed, who continue to fight and attempt to spread their evil creed. They have amply proven they will resort to genocide, etc. They would certainly harm any Buddhist they got their hands on.

And as far as those who have returned and have laid down arms, I would not trust them at all, and would make sure they were under constant surveillance. It is a crime in the US even to attempt to travel to join Daesh, as it should be in all civilized nations.

I am pretty liberal with respect to most things, but I have zero tolerance for Daesh.
I agree with this point of view. Malcolm is understanding the situation well, I would say.

Kevin

User avatar
Sherab
Posts: 1056
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:28 am

Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Sherab » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:39 pm

I think an assessment must be made as to how deep the wrong view has taken hold of the person. Those whose view could still be changed should be diverted to an effective and well-thought out rehabilitation and follow-up program. Those whose are assessed as truly hard core have to be separated from the rest of the society or even executed after due process of the law.

User avatar
Mantrik
Posts: 569
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Mantrik » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:46 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:04 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:45 pm
Daesh should be eliminated. They are exactly the kind of sentient beings that should be the object of the lower activity. It is the only compassionate way to deal with them.
I guess we should eliminate the Burmese government too. And the US government, I mean they have killed more people and destroyed more countries than Daesh ever will, even in their wildest wet dreams.
The website for LOTR in the UK interprets the 14 Root Downfalls as meaning that such killing to prevent others killing is not only acceptable but the duty of a Ngakpa. Maybe check that out. ;)
http://www.khyung.com

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

User avatar
Jesse
Posts: 1533
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Mordor, Middle Earth

Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Jesse » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:13 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:09 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:03 pm
It'll be a feat of serious sophistry to demonstrate that for each and every one of them, sight unseen. Seriously, Malcolm, you do a great deal of good. I hope you reconsider this. Look at what non-Buddhists do in Aarhus, Denmark, the success they've had in rehabilitating former Daesh people. And you would just give up on them and call for slaughter? Seems like a huge blind spot in compassion, let alone ethics and general sound policy.
I am talking about those who remain armed, who continue to fight and attempt to spread their evil creed. They have amply proven they will resort to genocide, etc. They would certainly harm any Buddhist they got their hands on.

And as far as those who have returned and have laid down arms, I would not trust them at all, and would make sure they were under constant surveillance. It is a crime in the US even to attempt to travel to join Daesh, as it should be in all civilized nations.

I am pretty liberal with respect to most things, but I have zero tolerance for Daesh.
Who get's to decide who lives, and who dies? Based on what criteria? Based on the views/welfare of which nation-state? I find you pretty intolerable most of the time, I suppose my killing you would be a service to sentient beings then.

Let's look at some numbers:
the Washington DC-based Physicians for Social Responsibility (PRS) released a landmark study concluding that the death toll from 10 years of the “War on Terror” since the 9/11 attacks is at least 1.3 million, and could be as high as 2 million.
http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/un ... 0-39149394
US Has Killed More Than 20 Million People in 37 “Victim Nations” Since World War II
https://www.globalresearch.ca/us-has-ki ... ii/5492051

Genocide, you say? is 20 million still genocide? It really needs a harsher sounding name after so many millions.
Norwegian wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:08 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:29 pm
I think this view expressed by Malcolm here is so selfevidently repugnant on many levels, it doesn't require counterarguments.
Malcolm's view expressed here has support in Tantra. I reckon your complete lack of knowledge of Tantric teachings and Tantric literature is the cause for your dismay. It's not more complicated than that.
The view that women are inferior to men has support in quite a few sutras as well, also that homosexuality is sexual misconduct. People who believe everything they read get on my nerves.
Last edited by Jesse on Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Freedom is secured not by the fulfilling of one's desires, but by the removal of desire” – Epictetus

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 25476
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:37 am

Jesse wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:13 am

Who get's to decide who lives, and who dies? Based on what criteria? Based on the views/welfare of which nation-state?
I gave the criteria.

I find you pretty intolerable most of the time, I suppose my killing you would be a service to sentient beings then.
I think you would only be scratching a homicidal itch and not getting the root of your problems.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

User avatar
Jesse
Posts: 1533
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Mordor, Middle Earth

Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Jesse » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:56 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:37 am
Jesse wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:13 am

Who get's to decide who lives, and who dies? Based on what criteria? Based on the views/welfare of which nation-state?
I gave the criteria.

I find you pretty intolerable most of the time, I suppose my killing you would be a service to sentient beings then.
I think you would only be scratching a homicidal itch and not getting the root of your problems.
1) they harm the doctrine, 2) they despise the Three Jewels, 3) they rob the Sangha 4) they despise Mahāyāna 5) they harm the body of the guru, 6) they destroy the vajra family, 7) they cause obsctacles to practice, 8) they utterly lack love and compassion, 9) they are utterly divorced from samaya vows, and 10) they have a false view of the result of karma.
This literally reads just like the criteria from the Quran used to dictate which infidels should be killed. "They are utterly divorced from Samaya vows? Dude, f-uck your Samaya vows and f-uck your guru.

Have I made the list yet?
“Freedom is secured not by the fulfilling of one's desires, but by the removal of desire” – Epictetus

User avatar
PuerAzaelis
Posts: 826
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by PuerAzaelis » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:28 am

You know, uh, I have to confess for years I’ve had this craving to hear you have a Christopher Hitchens moment, loppon, but now that you kind of did ... I really, really wish you would qualify this position or take it back. ... So go figure.

:cry:
And nobody in all of Oz. No Wizard that there is or was.

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 7456
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:32 am

This kind of requires one to ask the question behind the motivation of killing Daesh/Isis.

Personally I do not believe that governments of liberal democracies see Daesh as any kind of real existential problem at all, in fact sometimes I wonder if they are simply the "useful idiots" of the increasingly authoritarian approach of the supposed liberal democracies, both militarily and economically.

Second, one has to ask if the low level warfare and proxy war which has so far been the MO of the US, Europe etc. is actually doing anything to change the spread of the ideology of Daesh, again..the answer appears to be NO to me, so I am skeptical that there is even any real desire to solve the problem.

I would also point out, whether people like or dislike Trump, this was in play long before him. in fact, Obama has quite the "killer" record in this department.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 7456
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:34 am

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:28 am
You know, uh, I have to confess for years I’ve had this craving to hear you have a Christopher Hitchens moment, loppon, but now that you kind of did ... I really, really wish you would qualify this position or take it back. ... So go figure.

:cry:
Loppon Malcolm is a brilliant guy and clearly a serious Dharma resource on a number of levels, but I have no idea why so many on this board feel like they need to agree with everything he says constantly, or feel pressure to entirely align themselves with his views, particularly when he doesn't seem to demand that himself.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 25476
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:35 am

Jesse wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:56 am
Have I made the list yet?
No, you have not. You would literally have to be willing the harm the Dharma and all sentient beings as well (Like Daesh), and be utterly devoid of love and compassion to make it on the list,

I do suggest you get a handle on your anger, however.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 8787
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by DGA » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:37 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:02 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:54 pm
I wonder at what point Buddhists would see killing as justified, if at all.
When someone is an enemy of the Dharma and sentient beings, like Daesh, then it is justified.
Let's talk about a different context: Nazis.

There are those who were really into it: Brownshirts and the like. That's one category.

Then there were fellow-travelers who had a kind of intellectual dalliance with it, and who didn't stand in the way of benefiting materially and socially from the Nazi thing, and never really backed off afterward. You know, the Heideggers of the world. That's a second category.

Then there are those whose very survival depended on passing as a fellow traveler, who participated in the Nazi program as little as possible and only as a condition of survival, and felt great remorse even for that. That's a third category.

I would assume that among Daesh all three categories of participants obtain. Should all three be treated the same, i.e., "lead poisoning"?

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 25476
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:39 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:32 am
This kind of requires one to ask the question behind the motivation of killing Daesh/Isis.
They are harmful beings. In a rather short time, they have wrecked a number of large cities in the Middle East, and literally kept 2 or 3 million people in abject slavery, terror, and poverty. Yes, I am quite aware that without the second Iraq war, etc., we would not discussing this at all.

But when you havea rabid dog, first you put it down before you wonder where it got bit.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 7456
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:44 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:39 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:32 am
This kind of requires one to ask the question behind the motivation of killing Daesh/Isis.
They are harmful beings. In a rather short time, they have wrecked a number of large cities in the Middle East, and literally kept 2 or 3 million people in abject slavery, terror, and poverty. Yes, I am quite aware that without the second Iraq war, etc., we would not discussing this at all.

But when you havea rabid dog, first you put it down before you wonder where it got bit.
Again this assumes that policy is actually crafted to get rid of them. Either Western leaders are not actually that interested in this (just lip service mostly), or they are really dumb. Perhaps a combination of the two. I feel fairly confident though that their strategy is not going to be successful. in fact, given the West's continual slide into authoritarianism and even more blatant political hypocrisy....i'll be surprised if they see even whatever little success they expect to, so to me your declaration (whatever it's merits on a basic ethical level) doesn't much matter, no one is interested in "eliminating" ISIS in any way that would realistically reduce the damage they are doing, or prevent them from morphing into something else.

Years of drone bombings and proxy wars have not really led to a "solution" of any kind...in fact one could argue that on the whole the increase in terror after the declaration of the "War on Terror is no kind of coincidence, whether it's overtly intentional or subconscious, it is an abject failure.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 25476
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:45 am

DGA wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:37 am
I would assume that among Daesh all three categories of participants obtain. Should all three be treated the same, i.e., "lead poisoning"?
I was talking about Daesh fighters, people who run the Daesh state and are committed to it's really insane vision of the world.

Fortunately, the Iraqis, Kurds and some Syrians seem to be in the process of sorting out Daesh in Iraq and Eastern Syria. They understand very clearly the toxicity of Daesh, even if some people in the West do not.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 32 guests