Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:48 am

Also worth mentioning, America has already done this with Al Quaeda.
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Malcolm
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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:50 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:44 am
no one is interested in "eliminating" ISIS in any way that would realistically reduce the damage they are doing, or prevent them from morphing into something else.
Iraqis, Kurds and Syrians are pretty interested in this, as they should be, and we should assist them.

Niger and Nigeria is also interested in this, as well as what passes for a Somalian Gvt. We should assist them as well. We are already assisting Duterte in the Philippines, who of course is also another person who is extremely problematical.

This is not even a question of Islam, etc. These people are enemies of humanity (even their own) and this should be recognized. We should support those who oppose to the extent that we can.
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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:52 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:50 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:44 am
no one is interested in "eliminating" ISIS in any way that would realistically reduce the damage they are doing, or prevent them from morphing into something else.
Iraqis, Kurds and Syrians are pretty interested in this, as they should be, and we should assist them.
That will just involve more US installation of friendly regimes, as much as I could agree in theory, I don't think any help the US gives will be about stopping ISIS or helping the nascent half-ass Iraqi government.
Niger and Nigeria is also interested in this, as well as what passes for a Somalian Gvt. We should assist them as well. We are already assisting Duterte in the Philippines, who of course is also another person who is extremely problematical.

This is not even a question of Islam, etc. These people are enemies of humanity (even their own) and this should be recognized. We should support those who oppose to the extent that we can.
Our country has such a terrible history of "assisting" with such things, I don't really see the point, it will never be above board. I agree in theory, but here practice almost never reflects the theory. Gogo Rojava, but that's about it.
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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:54 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:48 am
Also worth mentioning, America has already done this with Al Qaeda.
Al Qaeda is not the same. They are enemies of the US certainly and perhaps, given the chance, they might be just as terrible as Daesh. But as it stands right now they are not. Daesh even disgusts them. Al Qaeda is the enemy of those western countries who happened to station troops in Saudi Arabia after the first Gulf War. They don't qualify.
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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:55 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:54 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:48 am
Also worth mentioning, America has already done this with Al Qaeda.
Al Qaeda is not the same. They are enemies of the US certainly and perhaps, given the chance, they might be just as terrible as Daesh. But as it stands right now they are not. Daesh even disgusts them. Al Qaeda is the enemy of those western countries who happened to station troops in Saudi Arabia after the first Gulf War. They don't qualify.
Uh, the US killed Americans in Al Quaeda, it's already happened...
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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:57 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:52 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:50 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:44 am
no one is interested in "eliminating" ISIS in any way that would realistically reduce the damage they are doing, or prevent them from morphing into something else.
Iraqis, Kurds and Syrians are pretty interested in this, as they should be, and we should assist them.
That will just involve more US installation of friendly regimes, as much as I could agree in theory, I don't think any help the US gives will be about stopping ISIS or helping the nascent half-ass Iraqi government.
The installation of friendly regimes works for me.

Niger and Nigeria is also interested in this, as well as what passes for a Somalian Gvt. We should assist them as well. We are already assisting Duterte in the Philippines, who of course is also another person who is extremely problematical.

This is not even a question of Islam, etc. These people are enemies of humanity (even their own) and this should be recognized. We should support those who oppose to the extent that we can.
Our country has such a terrible history of "assisting" with such things, I don't really see the point, it will never be above board.
We have an obligation to assist — after all, Daesh is somewhat a problem of our own making. We do need to clean up the messes our country makes.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:57 am

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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:58 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:57 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:52 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:50 am


Iraqis, Kurds and Syrians are pretty interested in this, as they should be, and we should assist them.
That will just involve more US installation of friendly regimes, as much as I could agree in theory, I don't think any help the US gives will be about stopping ISIS or helping the nascent half-ass Iraqi government.
The installation of friendly regimes works for me.

Niger and Nigeria is also interested in this, as well as what passes for a Somalian Gvt. We should assist them as well. We are already assisting Duterte in the Philippines, who of course is also another person who is extremely problematical.

This is not even a question of Islam, etc. These people are enemies of humanity (even their own) and this should be recognized. We should support those who oppose to the extent that we can.
Our country has such a terrible history of "assisting" with such things, I don't really see the point, it will never be above board.
We have an obligation to assist — after all, Daesh is somewhat a problem of our own making. We do need to clean up the messes our country makes.
I don't think the US has ever cleaned up a mess it has made, usually it installs it's own business interests backed by military presence and finagles things to make markets friendly, I don't think on the whole policy makers care about cleaning up our messes, though again I can agree in theory.
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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:00 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:55 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:54 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:48 am
Also worth mentioning, America has already done this with Al Qaeda.
Al Qaeda is not the same. They are enemies of the US certainly and perhaps, given the chance, they might be just as terrible as Daesh. But as it stands right now they are not. Daesh even disgusts them. Al Qaeda is the enemy of those western countries who happened to station troops in Saudi Arabia after the first Gulf War. They don't qualify.
Uh, the US killed Americans in Al Quaeda, it's already happened...
You mean Anwar Al Awlaki? He gave up his right to call himself an American the very first time he called for terrorist attacks on the United States.
Atikosha
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:01 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:00 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:55 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:54 am


Al Qaeda is not the same. They are enemies of the US certainly and perhaps, given the chance, they might be just as terrible as Daesh. But as it stands right now they are not. Daesh even disgusts them. Al Qaeda is the enemy of those western countries who happened to station troops in Saudi Arabia after the first Gulf War. They don't qualify.
Uh, the US killed Americans in Al Quaeda, it's already happened...
You mean Anwar Al Awlaki? He gave up his right to call himself an American the very first time he called for terrorist attacks on the United States.
You're welcome to believe that, it's certainly a common sentiment these days, but you're not going to convince me of the importance of extra-judicial assassination. I was simply mentioning it because it's relevant, as America has already killed it's own citizens sans due process int he War on Terror, though certainly it's been isolated.
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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:05 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:58 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:57 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:52 am


That will just involve more US installation of friendly regimes, as much as I could agree in theory, I don't think any help the US gives will be about stopping ISIS or helping the nascent half-ass Iraqi government.
The installation of friendly regimes works for me.

Our country has such a terrible history of "assisting" with such things, I don't really see the point, it will never be above board.
We have an obligation to assist — after all, Daesh is somewhat a problem of our own making. We do need to clean up the messes our country makes.
I don't think the US has ever cleaned up a mess it has made, usually it installs it's own business interests backed by military presence and finagles things to make markets friendly, I don't think on the whole policy makers care about cleaning up our messes, though again I can agree in theory.
I disagree. I think Obama, Clinton, and Carter were very motivated to clean up messes we made. Unfortunately, for Obama and Clinton, they had hostile congresses to contend with.

As a matter of real politik, however, I think that Trump's nativism, etc., has really cost us. Frankly, I would rather live in a world where US power was dominant than Russian or Chinese power. Just sayin...
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:09 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:01 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:00 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:55 am


Uh, the US killed Americans in Al Quaeda, it's already happened...
You mean Anwar Al Awlaki? He gave up his right to call himself an American the very first time he called for terrorist attacks on the United States.
You're welcome to believe that, it's certainly a common sentiment these days, but you're not going to convince me of the importance of extra-judicial assassination. I was simply mentioning it because it's relevant, as America has already killed it's own citizens sans due process int he War on Terror, though certainly it's been isolated.

He was a traitor to his nation. He committed treason. This is how the treason law works:
United States Constitution. Article III wrote:Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
and:
18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason wrote:Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
His broadcasts and videos were quite sufficient evidence. Under these statutes, any US citizen who went to fight for Daesh, can be subject to the same punishments.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:10 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:05 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:58 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:57 am


The installation of friendly regimes works for me.




We have an obligation to assist — after all, Daesh is somewhat a problem of our own making. We do need to clean up the messes our country makes.
I don't think the US has ever cleaned up a mess it has made, usually it installs it's own business interests backed by military presence and finagles things to make markets friendly, I don't think on the whole policy makers care about cleaning up our messes, though again I can agree in theory.
I disagree. I think Obama, Clinton, and Carter were very motivated to clean up messes we made. Unfortunately, for Obama and Clinton, they had hostile congresses to contend with.

As a matter of real politik, however, I think that Trump's nativism, etc., has really cost us. Frankly, I would rather live in a world where US power was dominant than Russian or Chinese power. Just sayin...

Obama basically pioneered drone bombings. He personally may have not wanted it to be the way it was, but his administration as a whole managed to be both incredibly ineffective in fighting global terrorism, -AND- somewhat authoritarian (you could call it targeted authoritarianism I guess) about it's prosecution of the 'war on terror", including domestically with things like the NSA revelations. You'd think with this dictatorial attitudes towards the press, increase in the surveillance state etc...he'd at least achieve something.

On the last bit, I suspect we will find out. I agree that a world run by the US is preferable in it's current state, but it is really sliding downhill and continues to, there is little keeping it from being like Russia or China, from my PoV, other than civil society objections.
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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:11 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:09 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:01 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:00 am


You mean Anwar Al Awlaki? He gave up his right to call himself an American the very first time he called for terrorist attacks on the United States.
You're welcome to believe that, it's certainly a common sentiment these days, but you're not going to convince me of the importance of extra-judicial assassination. I was simply mentioning it because it's relevant, as America has already killed it's own citizens sans due process int he War on Terror, though certainly it's been isolated.

He was a traitor to his nation. He committed treason. This is how the treason law works:
United States Constitution. Article III wrote:Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
and:
18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason wrote:Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
His broadcasts and videos were quite sufficient evidence.
Yeah, because that's never been historically misused.

Anyway, I don't really wanna continue this, I see where you're coming from on an ethical level, i am not bothered by people wanting to go to war with Daesh, and I applaud groups like Rojava doing so..I just don't share your enthusiasm or trust for the Western world's "solutions".
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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:12 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:11 am

Yeah, because that's never been misused.
Unlike other countries, like China and Russia, the US and Western Europe are largely nations of laws. We really do maintain that, not perfectly, but we try. Can't say as much for the rest of the world. And I have travelled a lot of it.
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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:14 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:12 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:11 am

Yeah, because that's never been misused.
Unlike other countries, like China and Russia, the US and Western Europe are largely nations of laws. We really do maintain that. Can't say as much for the rest of the world.
Only because of civil institutions basically, increasingly militarism - including things like expanding approval extra judicial assassination, will put an end to what little restrains authoritarianism here, IMO.
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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:15 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:11 am

Anyway, I don't really wanna continue this, I see where you're coming from on an ethical level, i am not bothered by people wanting to go to war with Daesh, and I applaud groups like Rojava doing so..I just don't share your enthusiasm or trust for the Western world's "solutions".
I actually don't want to make war on anyone. But sometimes, when decent people are being deliberately murdered by savages, someone has to step up.
Atikosha
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Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:16 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:15 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:11 am

Anyway, I don't really wanna continue this, I see where you're coming from on an ethical level, i am not bothered by people wanting to go to war with Daesh, and I applaud groups like Rojava doing so..I just don't share your enthusiasm or trust for the Western world's "solutions".
I actually don't want to make war on anyone. But sometimes, when decent people are being deliberately murdered by savages, someone has to step up.
I agree there, just not on the details.
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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:17 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:14 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:12 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:11 am

Yeah, because that's never been misused.
Unlike other countries, like China and Russia, the US and Western Europe are largely nations of laws. We really do maintain that. Can't say as much for the rest of the world.
Only because of civil institutions basically, increasingly militarism - including things like expanding approval extra judicial assassination, will put an end to what little restrains authoritarianism here, IMO.

I bet you will find out someday that Anwar Al Awlaki was tried in absentia in a FISA court before Obama ordered his death.
Atikosha
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


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Re: Kill Daesh Jihadists from Britain says Government

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:19 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:17 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:14 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:12 am


Unlike other countries, like China and Russia, the US and Western Europe are largely nations of laws. We really do maintain that. Can't say as much for the rest of the world.
Only because of civil institutions basically, increasingly militarism - including things like expanding approval extra judicial assassination, will put an end to what little restrains authoritarianism here, IMO.

I bet you will find out someday that Anwar Al Awlaki was tried in absentia in a FISA court before Obama ordered his death.
(Secret) FISA courts don't constitute due process IMO. Gotta get back to work now, have fun.
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