BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

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Mantrik
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Mantrik » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:14 pm

Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:49 pm
so in a thread on a Buddhist site where a Loppon is calling for the killing of humans...
One of Lopon Ogyan Tanzin's most senior representatives in the UK has also published this teaching, as the duty of a Ngakpa related to the 14 Root Downfalls. Killing in order to save the lives of others is acceptable, as a general act, albeit that IS is not specifically mentioned.

If one has taken those vows it would be a serious downfall not to prevent IS killers from further action by killing them if that were to be necessary.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Minobu » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:24 pm

Well i guess a rethink is due.
thank you Malcolm for allowing me to venture somewhere i thought i never needed to venture.

I don't apologize for my take on this and my subsequent posts ...
I live in a very violent world..
it's pretty frak..ed up

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:25 pm

HHDL on Iraq, just wars, etc.:

The Dalai Lama said Wednesday that the U.S.-led war in Afghanistan may have been justified to win a larger peace, but that is it too soon to judge whether the Iraq war was warranted. "I think history will tell," he said in an interview with The Associated Press on Wednesday, just after he met with President Bush.

"In principle, I always believe nonviolence is the right thing, and nonviolent method is in the long run more effective," said the Dalai Lama, who after the Sept. 11 attacks had implored Bush to avoid a violent response by the United States.

The exile Tibetan leader, awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989, said the Vietnam War increased suffering and was a "failure." But, he said, some wars, including the Korean War and World War II, helped "protect the rest of civilization, democracy." He said he saw a similar result in Afghanistan - "perhaps some kind of liberation."

"The people themselves, I think, suffer a lot under their previous regimes," he said. But he was adamant that the United States not lose sight of rebuilding Afghanistan.

The Dalai Lama urged Bush, in a letter on Sept. 12, 2001, to "think seriously whether a violent action is the right thing to do and in the greater interest of the nation and people in the long run." Asked whether the Iraq war was just, the Dalai Lama said the situation there is "more complicated" and will take more time before he can judge.

The Dalai Lama said he had briefly raised these concerns to Bush during their meeting in the White House residence. He declined to say what Bush's response was.

The Tibetan Buddhist leader, who is a five-city, 20-day tour of the United States that is timed to coincide with the Sept. 11 anniversary, called on Americans to channel their lingering grief "into a source of inner strength."

"Big, unthinkable tragedies happen," he said. "Now, instead of keeping that and developing hatred or sense of revenge, instead of that, think long-term. The negative event, try to transform into a source of inner strength."

He likened the terrorist attacks to Tibetans' struggle to reclaim their country from Chinese rule. Communist troops took over Tibet in 1951, and the Dalai Lama fled in 1959 during a failed uprising. He now lives in India.

"In my own case, many experiences of unthinkable situations have happened, but we never lose our hope. We never let negative emotions (rule), so that's immense benefit - including my own health," said the Dalai Lama, who was hospitalized last year with stomach ailments. "More peace (of) mind, more calm mind, more compassionate mind - very good for my health!" he said with a hearty laugh.

The White House meeting irritated Chinese authorities, who said in the official China Daily newspaper that the visit to the United States "constitutes a serious intervention into China's internal affairs." Nevertheless, the Dalai Lama got an audience with Bush; Secretary of State Colin Powell and his top aide on Tibet, Paula Dobriansky; Laura Bush; White House chief of staff Andy Card; and a deputy to Vice President Dick Cheney, Scooter Libby.

The Washington-based International Campaign for Tibet, however, said it was high time Bush received the Dalai Lama in the Oval Office, not in the White House residence - a symbolic step that would signal a stronger commitment to the Dalai Lama's teachings, said John Ackerly, ICT's president.

"Our war on terrorism should include embracing nonviolent leaders, and not ushering them in through the back door of the White House," Ackerly said.

The Dalai Lama, regarded by Tibetan Buddhists as the 14th incarnation of the Buddha of compassion, broke into laughter often during the interview, even when the conversation turned to serious topics.

He laughed when he described his political role as one of "semi-retirement," when he stumbled on a word, and again when he characterized Beijing's occasional "bullying" of Tibet.

He gestured continuously, the beads on his bracelet rattling at the end of his bare arms. The 68-year-old Dalai Lama had flecks of gray in his close-cropped hair, but looked decades younger than his age.

The Dalai Lama and his followers seek greater autonomy for Tibetans while keeping the region part of China. Beijing demands that the Dalai Lama publicly renounce any claim to Tibet's independence, and says he is welcome back as a religious leader, but may have no political role.

The Dalai Lama said he saw hopeful signs of an agreement. Direct contact between his envoys and Chinese officials resumed last year after an impasse of nearly a decade.

He called China's new president, Hu Jintao - a former top Chinese official in Tibet - "cautious," but said he hoped Hu will continue a process of liberalization. But he also said he was concerned about frustration among Tibetans after decades of Chinese rule, and amid an "overwhelming" influx of Chinese into Tibet. "Not necessarily intentionally, but unintentionally, the cultural genocide is taking place," he said.

Asked whether decades of frustration could lead to violence or even terrorism, he paused. "Oh, possible," the Dalai Lama said. "But up to now, Tibetans, in spite individual views or feelings, I think generally they listen to my approach. Strictly nonviolent."
https://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/09/277215.html
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Grigoris » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:51 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:14 pm
One of Lopon Ogyan Tanzin's most senior representatives in the UK has also published this teaching, as the duty of a Ngakpa related to the 14 Root Downfalls. Killing in order to save the lives of others is acceptable, as a general act, albeit that IS is not specifically mentioned.

If one has taken those vows it would be a serious downfall not to prevent IS killers from further action by killing them if that were to be necessary.
Relax with the LOTR thing dude. The 14 tantric vows are taught and conferred by ALL tantric teachers. Every HYT empowerment is accompanied by the taking of these vows. It's implicit. And anyway, if you wish to apply the specific teaching, then ISIS members are only one example of a valid object of the application of this specific vow.

Out of interest: How many tantric teachers do you (and others) know of that have killed beings to liberate them? Hmmmm...?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Mantrik » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:14 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:51 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:14 pm
One of Lopon Ogyan Tanzin's most senior representatives in the UK has also published this teaching, as the duty of a Ngakpa related to the 14 Root Downfalls. Killing in order to save the lives of others is acceptable, as a general act, albeit that IS is not specifically mentioned.

If one has taken those vows it would be a serious downfall not to prevent IS killers from further action by killing them if that were to be necessary.
Relax with the LOTR thing dude. The 14 tantric vows are taught and conferred by ALL tantric teachers. Every HYT empowerment is accompanied by the taking of these vows. It's implicit. And anyway, if you wish to apply the specific teaching, then ISIS members are only one example of a valid object of the application of this specific vow.

Out of interest: How many tantric teachers do you (and others) know of that have killed beings to liberate them? Hmmmm...?
I was answering Minobu's point which perhaps made it seem that Malcolm's view is an odd one for a Lopon.

I'm quite relaxed about it and would follow that interpretation. You also took those vows so I guess you need to relax about them too.;)
I'm well aware of the vows and have had them conferred before. As you say, they accompany higher empowerments, but although we know of them, most Buddhists will not, and so need that context.
You make my point exaclty - it would be odd to exclude IS killers from the vow taken.

Many master liberate beings through 'lower activities' - you know that - but I don't know of one I've met who has liberated a human being by killing them.
But then, I haven't asked them.
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Arjan Dirkse » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:09 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:53 am
Arjan Dirkse wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:26 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:57 pm

Sorry, but there is nothing remotely unique in ISIS tactics (I wish there was), I think the thing that scares most people is that their ideology seems to have some pull, but of course most do not want to admit that their ideology has pull for a reason, and a big part of that reason is hypocrisy and present moral bankruptcy of it's big viilian - the West. When people are already crazy, all it takes is lies that are vaguely pointed in the same direction as truth to recruit people.
ISIS is not chiefly about the West, its main target is shiites and other non-sunni groups like the Yazidis in Iraq, as well as moderate sunnis. They care more about terrorizing Muslims than terrorizing the West.
Politically, they most certainly care about terrorizing the west, or creating the appearance they are, just read their propaganda, not hard to figure out. Of course, this is not reflected in the body count necessarily, it's about appearances.
I am not saying they don't care about the West at all, it just isn't their main target. Basically IS has declared war against everything that doesn't fit their own ideology, including the West, Russia, China, and well, everybody else. Though ideologically their number one target is what they call Muslim apostates: shiites, alawites, moderate democratic sunnis, etc. Those groups have "defiled Islam", IS wants to bring the religion back to their ideal pure version. That's the first task, fighting the West is only secondary.

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Grigoris » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:05 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:14 pm
You make my point exaclty - it would be odd to exclude IS killers from the vow taken.
I don't see anybody excluding them as valid objects of liberation. I just doubted the effectiveness and validity of military personnel dropping bombs from drones on random retreating people as a form of liberation.

My motivation for posting the video that started this thread is to do away with people's fixation on ISIS members being the only "evil" force in this engagement. Seems to me that nobody has bothered reading the article or watching the videos.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by CapNCrunch » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:19 am

killing is never an option in buddhism, even of an insect let alone a Human being who somewhere in future as promised by The Lotus Sutra is a Buddha.
going to work we have proper guidelines of conduct
cooking and the food we eat also...
Would you kill a suffering animal that was in obvious, excruciating pain, beyond your or anyone's ability to help, and was going to die soon anyway?
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Minobu » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:20 am

CapNCrunch wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:19 am
killing is never an option in buddhism, even of an insect let alone a Human being who somewhere in future as promised by The Lotus Sutra is a Buddha.
going to work we have proper guidelines of conduct
cooking and the food we eat also...
Would you kill a suffering animal that was in obvious, excruciating pain, beyond your or anyone's ability to help, and was going to die soon anyway?
you know i would like to add something to my dialogue and learning in this thread. thats my quote there Capn.

your question nailed it...hopefully my mindstream does not produce that moment.
this whole concept of killing when it is righteous and when it is not ...so far i've avoided having to make those choices...
it's like maybe and hopefully i no longer have the karma even though i live on this planet of murderous moments in time galore.

also i'm glad i'm not in a position of being a teacher who needs to dictate it's ok at times to murder sentients.

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by CapNCrunch » Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:37 am

your question nailed it...hopefully my mindstream does not produce that moment.
this whole concept of killing when it is righteous and when it is not ...so far i've avoided having to make those choices...
Fair enough, but having come to Buddhism rather late in life, I have to say that I find some of the ideas and even doctrines hard to square with my own experience, which is why I really appreciate my teacher's constant admonition to "work with circumstances".

The fact is, a lot of us have to make those choices, and on a regular basis. For example, I'm a beekeeper. I love my little friends, and have a lot of joy working with them and experiencing their wisdom.

As a Buddhist, I'm obviously practicing wrong livelihood - I do my best, but there is no way to avoid squashing bees constantly on the scale we work. Also, when you see a bee trapped, or 1/2 squashed and trying to get away etc. etc. - all of the situations that can arise, my feeling is that it would be a miserable compassion indeed to let them suffer like that when I can end that suffering quickly.

This is to say nothing of the very concept of beekeeping, a situation where you take what you didn't earn (or at least in theory although in practice to be a decent beekeeper you have to work at least as hard as they do, and the rewards are shared) like collecting interest on money - something else forbidden.

In practice, honey bees would no longer exist at all where I live without husbandry and active human involvement. Without bees, forget our entire local agricultural system.

So I'm happy that you've never had to make those choices, but I'll bet you eat honey, or have eaten it at some point. So now that you've been in the back room and seen the way the sausages are made, will you swear off eating honey?

Should I stop keeping bees, even though I know I'm as careful as I can be, and I know for a fact much gentler and careful than at least some of the beekeepers we've met and observed first hand?

For example, we don't do mass pollination contracts which I think is the root cause of the bee issues and focus on honey production, but even this is only due to favorable circumstances. There are other beekeepers, good and well meaning people who MUST provide this service or we'd all be eating very differently in N. America.

So this thread deals with some sticky issues where the rubber meets the road. Maybe you think I'm evil incarnate b/c I keep bees, but obviously I don't feel this way. Reality in samsara is nuanced and the older get to be the more I understand that 'there but for the grace of god...'

I spoke up when I saw you speaking in absolutes because I'm very familiar with this type of thinking and I understand it, I'm not condemning, just providing my own experience and view. I grew up a fundamentalist Christian sect and left precisely because the endless rules I had no problem keeping (they always say you're an apostate because you couldn't live it) always have exceptions, and the best I feel we can do as humans living in Samsara, is to have a good heart, guard our motivation like our eyes, and do our best - at least people like me without exceptional qualities like the teachers who guide us - obviously they have different karma. As do the noble ordained Sangha who give their existence to ensure the teaching survives.

If we're fortunate to not have to be involved in things we find unpleasant or that we feel are at odds with our understanding of Dharma, then that's awesome - but are you really ready to consign everyone else to the hell realms? I've had a gut full of that in my life, and while I understand it, I think it's a bit unrealistic - samsara is suffering and struggle all the way down. It's easy to say that someone else is simply rationalizing their bad behavior, but it's really a bit more complicated than that.

On this subject of Daesh and what can or should be done about this kind of evil - I can understand the sentiment that by fighting something like that, you only become part of the problem etc. - but in reality, where the rubber meets the road, if everyone acted like this and abdicated responsibility, then evil would totally conquer in a single generation and it would all be much, much worse. Things are NEVER so bad they can't get worse, unfortunately.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by anjali » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:45 pm

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Minobu » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:58 pm

CapNCrunch wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:37 am
ike collecting interest on money - something else forbidden.
i think that is more a moslem thing ..lots of Buddhists on Wall Street...never heard that..
In practice, honey bees would no longer exist at all where I live without husbandry and active human involvement. Without bees, forget our entire local agricultural system.

So I'm happy that you've never had to make those choices, but I'll bet you eat honey, or have eaten it at some point. So now that you've been in the back room and seen the way the sausages are made, will you swear off eating honey?
i drive a car and my windscreen is filled with insects i killed.
it's very hard to avoid this sort of thing...i eat meat practically every day...i can't come to hunt though.
HHDL eats meat as well for His health.

I spoke up when I saw you speaking in absolutes because I'm very familiar with this type of thinking and I understand it, I'm not condemning, just providing my own experience and view.

i think you might have missed me ...maybe this type of thinking is for someone else...

As i said in the thread...maybe there is room for a rethink...
we are not supposed to kill or spend our time thinking about it ...

Somewhere i read there is a mention to the suffering one who makes oil from hemp will experience in the Bardo..
i read somewhere and this i think is very old text...when you make hemp seed oil you inadvertently kill insects...it cannot be helped...so when you die and in the Bardo these beings will experience large fingers squashing you...

Just living causes death to other sentients...the Janes go to great lengths and wear face coverings to not kill bacteria...that might not be true ..i read it somewhere...but Janes really do stuff to avoid all killing.

i'm not some fanatic i just go the distance with topics and reflect..

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Minobu » Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:46 pm

CapNCrunch wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:37 am
but are you really ready to consign everyone else to the hell realms?
This is something i needed to think about..
why do you say am i ready to consign everyone else to hell realms.
The Dharma is not something one can bend due to human frailty or fears or just because of living.

We do need to know what we are doing.

Lord Nagarjuna needed someone to kill him and asked this of someone because he had one last Karma to eradicate. In a past life he inadvertently stepped on an ant and killed a sentient being by doing so. so he needed to die by another's hand...also cause he could not die due to his level of realization...he was nine hundred at the time.

Is this historic or is it a teaching...doesn't matter.... Lord Nagarjuna tells it for us. it's up to you to take what you want..

the thread got heavy with a Loppon talking about destroying humans and gave reason for this.
i played the rules card..
apparently HHDL says it is ok sometimes..

i rethought it and realized fortunate for me i am not in this scenario , nor am i in hell . does that mean that there is no hell realms..no...i'm just not there and don't want to be there..
So my life is such i do not have to kill people...and do not even need to teach killing others or justify killing others ....
i have evolved and continue to pray to evolve out of the whole killing other sentients..
now let me go and clean off my windscreen whilst eating a hot dog.

the worst thing one can do is con themselves into thinking wrong view.


My father was in WWII..he was in the medical branch...he wanted to be a radio operator, instead he saved lives.
Me Grand dad was in WWI...he was a cook and in the annals of his regiment he saved three guys from being overcome by coke fumes in a bombed out building he ran into to save people...

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Karma Dorje » Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:34 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:53 pm
As you always do, you are overstating your case, Malcolm. http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebites ... rint.shtml
There. Fixed it for you, Dan.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Dan74 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:23 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:34 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:53 pm
As you always do, you are overstating your case, Malcolm. http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebites ... rint.shtml
There. Fixed it for you, Dan.
Thanks for the irony, KD. I always overstate my case too. Malcolm and I have much in common :)

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by CapNCrunch » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:15 am

We do need to know what we are doing.
Thanks for your thoughtful posts, Mino. I wasn't saying you were consigning everyone to hell realms, I meant people who are not fortunate enough to avoid things arising in their mindstreams that the tradition says, as you say it will, bring the vision of hell if ripened.

Your comment that we need to know what we are doing is well taken. I honestly think that knowing what we are doing always depends on how we understand phenomenon. Up until our understanding is stable and perfect, we can always change our mind.

Even if we can check with someone we trust completely, a teacher, a spiritual friend, etc., we still have the ultimate responsibility to act in accordance with the dictates of our own conscience, and always be open to accepting correction & instruction with a good heart, when they are offered by those we trust. What else can we do? I'm not suggesting in any way that we can escape the infallibility of karma by doing whatever we please - this is pure folly. Padmasambava's admonition re: view & action.

I'm only saying that for as long as I've been in samsara, my view about what is good and what isn't, appropriate or not has changed based on opinions given to me by others, those formed by myself, & everything in between - all subject to my own limitations and understanding.

That's why on the path I take refuge in the 3 jewels & do my best to follow the advice of my teacher which is to work with circumstances. I'm open to correction always, if doing the wrong thing, but it's honestly very difficult at times to always know precisely what to do, and the teacher isn't always there to ask answer every question, so what to do but one's best.

That said, in the case of extremely violent groups, I think that those who are involved directly in the problem would be irresponsible to simply turn away. I also feel that it's cruel to let an animal, or perhaps even a person, suffer extreme pain when their every action cries for relief. YMMV.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Minobu » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:56 pm

CapNCrunch wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:15 am

That said, in the case of extremely violent groups, I think that those who are involved directly in the problem would be irresponsible to simply turn away. I also feel that it's cruel to let an animal, or perhaps even a person, suffer extreme pain when their every action cries for relief. YMMV.
It's something debated forever.
i guess if i had to kill an animal i would pray for the sentients success and apologize for killing .
We had to put down a dog and it still haunts me...shortly after her death my parents had a luck change..for the good.my dad attributed that to her.
my uncle had to put down dogs all the time for he was a breeder and stuff happens.
he was a good guy and had me to hold him during his death and i chanted as he passed in my arms...out of nowhere i decided to go visit him up in Ottawa..i was 28 and never did that except as a kid with parents....the next day he died.

as for issis...they are probably possessed by evil demons...it is out of my depth to deal with them ...they only induce real negativity in my mindstream...so i try to ignore it.

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