BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

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Grigoris
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BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Grigoris » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:08 am

Iraqi photojournalist Ali Arkady was embedded with who he thought were the good guys — an elite unit of Iraqi soldiers battling Daesh in the name of a united Iraq, strong and free once and for all. But as the battle for Mosul intensified, the Iraqis lost the plot, descending into torture and murder of civilians.

Photos and video by Ali Arkady

By Mitch Potter, Michelle Shephard and Bruce Campion-Smith

May 25, 2017
http://projects.thestar.com/iraq-tortur ... ar-crimes/

It seems that many people here believe that the war in Syria and Iraq is like some sort of John Wayne western, with the good cowboys (the buddies of the US) on side and the bad Indians (ISIS) on the other, this article clears up that misconception.

Be warned: GRAPHIC PHOTOS AND VIDEO FOOTAGE of torture and executions.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Dan74 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:26 pm

It's always like that Greg. Just like most of the folks on 'our side' remember mostly the beheadings and the atrocities, the folks on the other remember Abu Graib, the Mahmudiya rape and killings, the drone attacks killing children. We see them as inhuman murderes and they see us in much the same light. And so it goes...

I am trying to normalise ISIS. It was a horrible outfit and it may not be the last we heard of it for some decades to come. But people inevitably whitewash the crimes committed by their side and tar everybody on the opposite side with the brush fit only for the worst of them. This is the dynamic that needs to be called out and examined, IMO.

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Mantrik » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:38 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:08 am
Iraqi photojournalist Ali Arkady was embedded with who he thought were the good guys — an elite unit of Iraqi soldiers battling Daesh in the name of a united Iraq, strong and free once and for all. But as the battle for Mosul intensified, the Iraqis lost the plot, descending into torture and murder of civilians.

Photos and video by Ali Arkady

By Mitch Potter, Michelle Shephard and Bruce Campion-Smith

May 25, 2017
http://projects.thestar.com/iraq-tortur ... ar-crimes/

It seems that many people here believe that the war in Syria and Iraq is like some sort of John Wayne western, with the good cowboys (the buddies of the US) on side and the bad Indians (ISIS) on the other, this article clears up that misconception.

Be warned: GRAPHIC PHOTOS AND VIDEO FOOTAGE of torture and executions.
This is the problem when people think they can bring about a 'united' country in a few years. It begins with the establishment of 'national' borders where shifting tribes and factions abound and lines on the map mean nothing. Same in what is called Afghanistan, Waziristan and many of the other 'stans. But it is hard to deal with tribes when it comes to oil so you try to get one group to be sufficiently in charge, by whatever means, to control the flow. And I don't think any western nation gives a flying firkin which band of whatever religion is in charge, as long as the supply of oil and minerals is secured, and will sell or supply arms to whichever faction looks most promising at the time.
They also misunderstand that loyalty is very ephemeral. Fighters switch sides, groups change alliegance, and so dealing with any one group is always going to run the risk that the arms supplied will end up being used by everyone around, and on civilians where rape and torture are also weapons of war and sometimes venting anger.
Good to post... it may be news to some, but I wonder how many will care.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Malcolm » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:50 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:26 pm
I am trying to normalise ISIS.
ISIS is not normal. They are abnormal.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Grigoris » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:50 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:26 pm
I am trying to normalise ISIS.
ISIS is not normal. They are abnormal.
No, in the specific context they are VERY normal.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Malcolm » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:35 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:31 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:50 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:26 pm
I am trying to normalise ISIS.
ISIS is not normal. They are abnormal.
No, in the specific context they are VERY normal.
No, ISIS is still abnormal.

Tribal killings are common in Iraq. This kind of thing has been going on there for the past 60 years, and longer.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Grigoris » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:50 pm

Let me enlighten you with an account from one of my patients that was captured by the Syrian State armed forces.

He was put naked into a bare walled room, with water covering the floor.

A guy in army fatigues strolls in and, without saying or asking anything of the captive and draws a ladder on the wall with a felt tip pen.

He then strolls over to the captive, points at the drawing and says to him: "Climb the ladder."

My patient answers: "But how can I? It is just a drawing."

To which the army guy replies: "By the time we are finished here, you will climb it."

The army guy walks out and the somebody outside of the room turns on a generator and electrocutes my patient via some wires lying in the water on the floor.

This went on for some time before they started the more seriously violent torture.

ISIS is very normal.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Malcolm » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:08 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:50 pm
Let me enlighten you with an account from one of my patients that was captured by the Syrian State armed forces.

...

ISIS is very normal.
No, Daesh is not very normal. They are very abnormal. They have exhibited the kind of mass cruelty we have not seen since death camps in WWII.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Grigoris » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:08 pm
No, Daesh is not very normal. They are very abnormal. They have exhibited the kind of mass cruelty we have not seen since death camps in WWII.
Sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "La-la-la!" just doesn't cut it like it used to when you were 5.

Tomorrow ISIS will be history in Iraq and Syria and somebody else will quickly and willingly step up to fill their shoes.

Meanwhile in Libya they are making gains...

Like I said elsewhere: the problem is much-much more than ISIS.
Last edited by Grigoris on Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by PuerAzaelis » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:32 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:50 pm
Let me enlighten you ...
A friend of mine was a surgeon who did intrauterine fetal heart transplants. He said he lost around a third of his patients. I used to tell his I didn't get how he could do what he did and keep his sanity. I don't know how you do what you do either.

Just out of interest though - if you were in that room with a free hand when that guy came in ... what would you do? I don't know you in real life but judging from the way you post here on DW I suspect you'd beat the s*** out of him, or worse.
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Malcolm » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:44 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:27 pm

Like I said elsewhere: the problem is much-much more than ISIS.
Oh no doubt, there are problems in the Mideast that are larger than Daesh, but that is really beside the point here.

If we are to listen to you, the 65 nation coalition should just go home and let everyone in the middle east murder each other with abandon.

But I really do not believe this is a very reasonable solution to the problems in the region. Yes, of course we can blame the US and its allies (mainly Britain) for so totally destabilizing the region. But it is not reasonable to pretend it is someone else problem. We live in a single world. People who committed war crimes on all sides should be held to account. But Daesh is a special case. Feeding infants to their mothers, setting up slave markets, etc., this is beyond the even the worst crimes of the Syrians, and so on. There is the brutalism of the Baathists such as Assad and Hussein, but then there is the sheer insanity of Daesh. The latter is in a special class all its own, not seen since the Nazis. Not even Pol Pot comes close to this.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by joy&peace » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:32 pm

All cap is the equivalent of shouting or screaming.

A lot of harsh speech. . .

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Grigoris » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:44 pm
If we are to listen to you, the 65 nation coalition should just go home and let everyone in the middle east murder each other with abandon.
I don't know if you have noticed but they are murdering each other with abandon in spite of the coalition and, in almost 100% of the cases, with the financial and material support of members of the 65 nation coalition.
But it is not reasonable to pretend it is someone else problem.
Nobody is pretending that.
But Daesh is a special case...
But that is where you are wrong. If I tell you some of the stories I hear from people escaping from the (extraordinarily common) indigenous death cults in Central Africa you would quickly come to realise that the brutality of ISIS is actually a common trait in any war zone and impoverished region.

You don't have to look to such exotic locations either.

Some of the shit that went down in the former Yugoslavia is blood curdling too. And I am sure that we are not getting the full picture of what is happening in the Ukraine either.

(I'll let Mantrik tell about the IRA and Ulster Unionists).

One time a former Afghani state army member showed me a video of young Taliban fighters playing soccer with the decapitated heads of their "enemies".

Even some of the reports I have heard from Israeli friends of mine (they were state military conscripts during the first Intifada) actions that they were personally involved in, would have you question human capacity for inhumanity. Not to mention some of the stories I have heard from Palestinian friends of mine on the other side of the conflict.

No, ISIS are not abnormal. This is, unfortunately, VERY normal behaviour for humans to engage in, when they are in the midst of the dehumanising chaos of war and abject poverty.

I recommend you read Franz Fanon's works. He was a psychiatrist working with torturers and torture victims from Farance's colonial wars. He then, strangely enough, turned revolutionary. His book "Wretched of the Earth" explains how oppressed people are justified in emulating the techniques (and worse) of their colonial oppressors in their struggle to liberate themselves from them. Maybe then you will start to understand the mindset of groups like ISIS.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Malcolm » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:58 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:37 pm
But Daesh is a special case...
But that is where you are wrong.
Sorry, Greg, I am familiar with all the things you mention. Still, Daesh is a special case. They have international reach and support. They have a well-oiled propaganda machine which attracts sick people from around the world to join their cause.

It really is on a scale not seen since the Nazis. And incidentally, Daesh arose from the oppressor class in Iraq. One of the reasons for their success is that 1) a large percentage of their commanders are ex- Iraqi Revolutionary Guard, and 2) a lot of the most effective foreign fighters are/were Chechens. who now have a brutal state tolerated by the Russians.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Dan74 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:58 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:37 pm
But Daesh is a special case...
But that is where you are wrong.
Sorry, Greg, I am familiar with all the things you mention. Still, Daesh is a special case. They have international reach and support. They have a well-oiled propaganda machine which attracts sick people from around the world to join their cause.

It really is on a scale not seen since the Nazis. And incidentally, Daesh arose from the oppressor class in Iraq. One of the reasons for their success is that 1) a large percentage of their commanders are ex- Iraqi Revolutionary Guard, and 2) a lot of the most effective foreign fighters are/were Chechens. who now have a brutal state tolerated by the Russians.
Be all that as it may, we should not confuse Daesh, the organisation and individual recruits.

PS The 'Chechen brutal state' is much more than ''tolerated' by the Russian government - it is a very useful puppet/mafia/assassins. Chechens were implicated in a number of political assassinations in Russia in recent years. Chechnya campaign is where Putin earned his stripes, as well as that horrific bomb attach on an apartment building in Moscow that could never be properly investigated because the investigators started dropping dead. Ah... the joys of the powerful state and powerless citizen...

Britain seems to hanker for such times. Murder its undesirable citizens, put people in jail for posting silly shit on FB, harass and threaten one of your oldest newspapers when they publish material you don't want out, meanwhile the former pollies are up for sale... Sad to see the UK democracy going down the slippery slope towards the corrupt Illiberal state.

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Malcolm » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:01 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:40 pm

Be all that as it may, we should not confuse Daesh, the organisation and individual recruits.
This is like saying we should not confuse the SS with camp guards in Dachau.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Dan74 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:04 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:01 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:40 pm

Be all that as it may, we should not confuse Daesh, the organisation and individual recruits.
This is like saying we should not confuse the SS with camp guards in Dachau.
Yes. Even in that horrific war, people were held to the Geneva's Convention on the Rights of PoWs. People were tried for their crimes and not summarily executed (see the case of General Anton Dostler).

Besides the very long stretch of that analogy, as if every Daesh recruit is equivalent to a guard at Dachau. And every guard at Dachau is equivalent to a brutal murderer deserving nothing but death. It seems to me, Malcolm, that people have become so brutalised that the line between the good folks in the UK calling to indiscriminate murder of former Daesh recruits and the recruits themselves is blurring fast...
Last edited by Dan74 on Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Malcolm
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Malcolm » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:07 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:04 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:01 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:40 pm

Be all that as it may, we should not confuse Daesh, the organisation and individual recruits.
This is like saying we should not confuse the SS with camp guards in Dachau.
Yes. Even in that horrific war, people were held to the Geneva's Convention on the Rights of PoWs. People were tried for their crimes and not summarily executed.
I never called for summary executions, Dan.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Malcolm » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:09 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:04 pm
the good folks in the UK calling to indiscriminate murder of former Daesh recruits and the recruits themselves is blurring fast...
Yes, the Gvt. in the UK is seems to be taking a zero tolerance policy — they don't want anyone to return at all.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: BOUND. TORTURED. KILLED.

Post by Dan74 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:07 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:04 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:01 pm


This is like saying we should not confuse the SS with camp guards in Dachau.
Yes. Even in that horrific war, people were held to the Geneva's Convention on the Rights of PoWs. People were tried for their crimes and not summarily executed.
I never called for summary executions, Dan.
That's good, Malcolm. Your initial post in that other thread sounded that way, but maybe I and some other folks misunderstood. I certainly hope so.

A lot of other people are, though. And it is scary. I love England, spent quite a bit of time there, but people scare me sometimes. A kind of a bloodlust that is quite pervasive. Human Rights is a funny old thing, even in a place like the UK, seems like many people aren't quite ready for it.

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