THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

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Lucas Oliveira
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THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:33 pm

THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

http://www.newsweek.com/universe-should ... ver-692500
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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Wayfarer » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:28 pm

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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Jesse » Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:44 am

:thinking:

Do we seriously not have a facepalm icon?

Ok, let's tear this apart.

"We discovered symmetries in the universe that shouldn't be possible, thus the universe shouldn't exist'

What? (Insert Facepalm here)

Rather, shouldn't it be... "We discovered symmetries in the universe that by our understanding shouldn't exist, yet they do, and since universe exists, it's obvious we lack the understanding to make such a conclusion. As we are seriously lacking in information, understanding, and advancement in this specific area/field we should probably spend some more time trying to understand how/why this is possible, before simply claiming the universe shouldn't exist."

but..no... "The universe shouldn't exist.."

Lolwhut.

I kind of wonder if the article misquoted the scientists, or left something out.. I honestly can't imagine a seasoned, intelligent scientist making a claim like this.
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:15 am

I found this news on a Brazilian site about gnosticism in the media.

http://cinegnose.blogspot.com.br/2017/1 ... -para.html


:namaste:
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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Jesse » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:30 am

Lucas Oliveira wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:15 am
I found this news on a Brazilian site about gnosticism in the media.

http://cinegnose.blogspot.com.br/2017/1 ... -para.html


:namaste:


AH, I had to translate it, but I found this bit which kind of makes me feel better about the whole thing.
Perplexed, Smorra says, "There has to be some asymmetry, somewhere. We simply do not understand where the difference between matter and antimatter is that justifies the existence of the Universe "

This, however;
Many have begun to speculate that this finding corroborates the Universe's hypothesis as a gigantic hologram or the thesis of NASA's philosopher Nick Bostrom or Rich Terrile that the universe would be a gigantic computational simulation
I think they are jumping the gun on that one. TBH you could make a case for it supporting the Buddhist idea of emptiness as well. Even if the universe was a simulation; we still possess awareness, consciousness, free will in a manner of speaking. So even if it turned out to be true, it doesn't change anything.

For a being/beings to create a universe, they would have to be unfathomably advanced technologically, or perhaps even spiritually. I mean, computers are essentially a human conception based on pre-existing universal concepts/constructs. (Logic, Mathematics, Physics, etc).

Saying we live in a computer simulation is based on a lot of ignorant assumptions, limited conceptualization, and a lot of misunderstandings.

Perhaps computer simulations model rather well how the universe works. This does not mean the universe is a product of a computer simulation, but rather that our computer simulations accurately model the universe. It's like when people say the human brain is like a computer, when in fact, it's the computer that's like a human brain.

That's the sort of misunderstanding I think there is with the holographic universe theory.
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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:46 pm

According to Elon Musk there's only a one in a billion chance we're in base reality at the moment.

:alien: :spy:
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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Arjan Dirkse » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:10 am

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:46 pm
According to Elon Musk there's only a one in a billion chance we're in base reality at the moment.

:alien: :spy:
What does that mean? Reality is reality. Even if we're in a simulated reality (which I don't believe) that is still reality. Irreality desn't exist as a reality.

I think it may only look like we're in a simulated reality, because we have no other way to make sense of the results of the research. Reality is weird. But that doesn't mean we're on the harddrive of some brilliant alien.

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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by TharpaChodron » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:40 pm

Arjan Dirkse wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:10 am
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:46 pm
According to Elon Musk there's only a one in a billion chance we're in base reality at the moment.

:alien: :spy:
What does that mean? Reality is reality. Even if we're in a simulated reality (which I don't believe) that is still reality. Irreality desn't exist as a reality.

I think it may only look like we're in a simulated reality, because we have no other way to make sense of the results of the research. Reality is weird. But that doesn't mean we're on the harddrive of some brilliant alien.
Sounds similar to my own problems I've grappled with from time to time, which is the "Everything is an illusion," idea. It's like, okay, so it's all an illusion, but if everything is an illusion then what difference does it make it it's all real or not?

I'm glad to hear that Elon Musk is into alternate realities and stuff like that. But if the universe is like some giant Nintendo playstation, it seems a bit ridiculous. :shrug:

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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Queequeg » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:01 pm

Arjan Dirkse wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:10 am
But that doesn't mean we're on the harddrive of some brilliant alien.
It might be something more like Earth in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy where the whole planet and all the life on it is itself the computer. This whole universe might be some elaborate super tech.

Whatever the case, none of this changes anything for us.
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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:02 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:01 pm

Whatever the case, none of this changes anything for us.
does not change?

we are in a Buddhist forum. the Buddha teaches that we are in an illusion. we practice every day to free ourselves from this captivity. ok it's a mahayana Buddhist forum so we have to help many beings too.

but scientific articles like that of this topic show us what the Buddha spoke 2500 years ago and more and more science is reaching the same conclusion.

these scientific works show us that we are on the right track and so we must continue on our path and practice more seriously the Dhamma of the Buddha.

:anjali:
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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Minobu » Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:06 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:40 pm

Sounds similar to my own problems I've grappled with from time to time, which is the "Everything is an illusion," idea. It's like, okay, so it's all an illusion, but if everything is an illusion then what difference does it make it it's all real or not?
I think the middle way solves that by explaining emptiness or sunyata.
the illusion is that everything is real..real here means inherent...inherent means that a thing or an experience or a thought ,let that go on and on...
that the thing is so real it exists in and of itself. Normally we accept this and are caught in the illusion.


That car is mine and it is a wonderful car ...look at that car.. but what is car? take away anything that went into it and there is no car...Car relies on so many factors to exist as car...yeah there is a car ...but by seeing that it relies on many things to be car...down to some miner somewhere digging in a mine... it's to show us this whole samsaric experience is not what it seems..it's an illusion..it's not the real deal..or anything in samsara that cause you to grasp to the point of anxiety to have it or own it or experience it..is ridiculous because it's not the ultimate realty.

we aim for enlightenment , and Buddhists Buddhahood , to experience and know the ultimate reality because all this other stuff does not exist on it's own so why bother yourself...so everything is somewhere between existence and nonexistence.

personally throwing the whole thing out the window is not my cuppa...yeah it's an illusion...but what an illusion!!!!

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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Minobu » Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:25 pm

Lucas Oliveira wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:02 pm
we are in a Buddhist forum. the Buddha teaches that we are in an illusion. we practice every day to free ourselves from this captivity. ok it's a mahayana Buddhist forum so we have to help many beings too.

but scientific articles like that of this topic show us what the Buddha spoke 2500 years ago and more and more science is reaching the same conclusion.

these scientific works show us that we are on the right track and so we must continue on our path and practice more seriously the Dhamma of the Buddha.

:anjali:
i hear ya !
It's like a Nichiren shoshu priest first explained to me about time....then Hawkins came out with the same theory...and then a Rinpoche talked about it like this.
I said the whole thing is a circle and once again we are here talking about time.
He said yes but each time it's a little different....

i see that as parallel universes ..i've experienced this twice that i know of ..

the second was here at DW...i was discussing the Bodhisattva whom Nichiren Shonin prayed to in order to be the wisest person in Japan.

i have a gazillion memories of it being Avalokiteshvara ..discussed it a gazillion times...had a statue which i put in a fish tank , which the head of the Gakki in Canada(Buddhist sect) saw when she came to my house ..We discussed the statue and the whole Nichiren Shonin praying to her came up...She said that is who Nichiren shonin prayed to....

when i talked of it here at DW i was told i had it wrong...for the life of me i cannot recall the Bodhisattva they all said was the correct one...which is weird in and of itself....for this was a huge topic for me and i would have recalled the Bodhisattva ...which for me was the first time i ever heard of the Bohdistava they said was the correct one...



the first time was with Tarot cards and the ones used in the James Bond movie. i had the deck ..the Rider deck...but all of a sudden after years of letting the tarot go, my memory of the lovers card changed completely both in the rider deck and the movie which i rented at blockbuster to see if what i just saw on tv...a rerun of the bond film...was a mistake.lol..
i know and had many memories of the card and yet it was different... i went to a tarot online site and asked and described my card and if anyone saw it in another deck...there are a gazillion tarot decks and this site had them all...they did not have a clue as to any card anywhere looking like that...


so like yeah the whole other parallel universe does not know my memories...


i think i am like Guinan on star trek ...she had a thing with time realms being changed and recalled something...lol

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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Queequeg » Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:35 pm

Lucas Oliveira wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:02 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:01 pm

Whatever the case, none of this changes anything for us.
does not change?

we are in a Buddhist forum. the Buddha teaches that we are in an illusion. we practice every day to free ourselves from this captivity. ok it's a mahayana Buddhist forum so we have to help many beings too.

but scientific articles like that of this topic show us what the Buddha spoke 2500 years ago and more and more science is reaching the same conclusion.

these scientific works show us that we are on the right track and so we must continue on our path and practice more seriously the Dhamma of the Buddha.

:anjali:
The way in which guys like Elon Musk are proposing the world is an illusion is different than the Buddhist meaning.

The original article about the CERN scientists is really about the dead end that their present theories and hard research have brought them to. Clearly, there is something going on that they have not taken account of, or are unable to take account of because its outside of the scope of their current theories or their diagnostic tools.

Before we go wild eyed theorizing about the nature of reality based on present scientific knowledge, or applying Buddhist soteriological teachings to hard science, it probably is a good idea to pump the breaks and take an accurate inventory of verifiable facts. I've observed, interpreting Buddhism through non-Buddhist lenses generally creates tremendous obstacles to cultivating Buddhist wisdom.

But, just my opinion.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:39 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:35 pm
Lucas Oliveira wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:02 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:01 pm

Whatever the case, none of this changes anything for us.
does not change?

we are in a Buddhist forum. the Buddha teaches that we are in an illusion. we practice every day to free ourselves from this captivity. ok it's a mahayana Buddhist forum so we have to help many beings too.

but scientific articles like that of this topic show us what the Buddha spoke 2500 years ago and more and more science is reaching the same conclusion.

these scientific works show us that we are on the right track and so we must continue on our path and practice more seriously the Dhamma of the Buddha.

:anjali:
The way in which guys like Elon Musk are proposing the world is an illusion is different than the Buddhist meaning.

The original article about the CERN scientists is really about the dead end that their present theories and hard research have brought them to. Clearly, there is something going on that they have not taken account of, or are unable to take account of because its outside of the scope of their current theories or their diagnostic tools.

Before we go wild eyed theorizing about the nature of reality based on present scientific knowledge, or applying Buddhist soteriological teachings to hard science, it probably is a good idea to pump the breaks and take an accurate inventory of verifiable facts. I've observed, interpreting Buddhism through non-Buddhist lenses generally creates tremendous obstacles to cultivating Buddhist wisdom.

But, just my opinion.
That's why virtue and compassion are very important in the way

:anjali:
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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by TharpaChodron » Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:06 pm

Minobu wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:06 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:40 pm

Sounds similar to my own problems I've grappled with from time to time, which is the "Everything is an illusion," idea. It's like, okay, so it's all an illusion, but if everything is an illusion then what difference does it make it it's all real or not?
I think the middle way solves that by explaining emptiness or sunyata.
the illusion is that everything is real..real here means inherent...inherent means that a thing or an experience or a thought ,let that go on and on...
that the thing is so real it exists in and of itself. Normally we accept this and are caught in the illusion.


That car is mine and it is a wonderful car ...look at that car.. but what is car? take away anything that went into it and there is no car...Car relies on so many factors to exist as car...yeah there is a car ...but by seeing that it relies on many things to be car...down to some miner somewhere digging in a mine... it's to show us this whole samsaric experience is not what it seems..it's an illusion..it's not the real deal..or anything in samsara that cause you to grasp to the point of anxiety to have it or own it or experience it..is ridiculous because it's not the ultimate realty.

we aim for enlightenment , and Buddhists Buddhahood , to experience and know the ultimate reality because all this other stuff does not exist on it's own so why bother yourself...so everything is somewhere between existence and nonexistence.

personally throwing the whole thing out the window is not my cuppa...yeah it's an illusion...but what an illusion!!!!
Sure, I know that if I fully realize the illusory nature of existence it is a transformative experience. I see a scary movie and for a minute am terrified, then later entertained because I think it's just a movie. How can I not feel the same about my everyday experience as I do about the movie is due to the fact that I have not really internalized the main teaching. What can I say, I'm working on it.

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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by PuerAzaelis » Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:28 pm

Arjan Dirkse wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:10 am
Even if we're in a simulated reality ... that is still reality.
Thank you Mr. Kant. We look forward to reviewing the first edition of your Critique ...
And nobody in all of Oz. No Wizard that there is or was.

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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Queequeg » Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:56 pm

Say... anyone know where the knobs are to adjust the picture?
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Minobu
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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Minobu » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:03 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:06 pm
Minobu wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:06 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:40 pm

Sounds similar to my own problems I've grappled with from time to time, which is the "Everything is an illusion," idea. It's like, okay, so it's all an illusion, but if everything is an illusion then what difference does it make it it's all real or not?
I think the middle way solves that by explaining emptiness or sunyata.
the illusion is that everything is real..real here means inherent...inherent means that a thing or an experience or a thought ,let that go on and on...
that the thing is so real it exists in and of itself. Normally we accept this and are caught in the illusion.


That car is mine and it is a wonderful car ...look at that car.. but what is car? take away anything that went into it and there is no car...Car relies on so many factors to exist as car...yeah there is a car ...but by seeing that it relies on many things to be car...down to some miner somewhere digging in a mine... it's to show us this whole samsaric experience is not what it seems..it's an illusion..it's not the real deal..or anything in samsara that cause you to grasp to the point of anxiety to have it or own it or experience it..is ridiculous because it's not the ultimate realty.

we aim for enlightenment , and Buddhists Buddhahood , to experience and know the ultimate reality because all this other stuff does not exist on it's own so why bother yourself...so everything is somewhere between existence and nonexistence.

personally throwing the whole thing out the window is not my cuppa...yeah it's an illusion...but what an illusion!!!!
Sure, I know that if I fully realize the illusory nature of existence it is a transformative experience. I see a scary movie and for a minute am terrified, then later entertained because I think it's just a movie. How can I not feel the same about my everyday experience as I do about the movie is due to the fact that I have not really internalized the main teaching. What can I say, I'm working on it.
yeah well i'm 62 and been at it since 15 , seriously Buddhist since 19/20ish?
still at it..had a huge lapse into the the party scene in the 80's..like breaking the candle into four and burning it at four ends...

the thing is how to work into Bodhicitta. the whole thing is generating that as we go...

we all feel at our best when helping..the journey is the thing..

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Minobu
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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Minobu » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:04 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:56 pm
Say... anyone know where the knobs are to adjust the picture?
Yeah buddhist practice.
and a heapin helpin of Granny's tonic from time to time...just kiddin'

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Minobu
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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Minobu » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:09 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:06 pm
the fact that I have not really internalized the main teaching. What can I say, I'm working on it.
on a more serious note...

you have internalized the main teaching cause you are aware of it.

and as per sunyata is far simpler than people think..
it's not complicated..

the emptiness is just the absence of inherent existence..so it is somewhere between existence and nonexistence..
it's an illusion, doesn't really exist(ON IT'S OWN) but hey you did feel fear at the movies...so it's also real..

people think because the word emptiness is used in english to teach it that they identify nothingness with emptiness..

if you are doing Dzogchen there is this whole other non related emptiness they talk of...which i don't know.

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