Trump Tweets

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Trump Tweets

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:21 pm

I want to agree with Fraser, but her article doesn’t factor in the current trend of personalized facts, where people believe anything they think (or are told by people-like-us) is true.
This is all the more reason to stop turning every Trump Voter into a caricature, and someone who cannot be "reached" by an alternative message. As someone who grew up working class and white, and has been around plenty of "those people" I can honestly say that I believe many of them are much smarter than your average liberal gives them credit for. Right now there is simply no message that even acknowledges their existence, let alone speaks to them - other than Trump's. That is a toxic situation, and the only real solution is a movement on the left with different priorities, and a break with the neoliberal, identitarian approach of the past. It doesn't even need to be a radical movement at all, just an anti-neo liberal movement with focus on bread and butter economics and the material conditions of working people would be a start. Right now we don't have that at all on the left, so speculating about the tough media situation really doesn't matter...there is no real alternative message out there anyway, not hard for "post truth" messaging to win against nothing.
I also don’t see her considering the very real, entrenched, extra-political power of capital; Reagan, Bill, and Obama, like congress, were merely acting under orders. It’s one thing to find a charismatic leader, but quite another for that leader to actually change the economic social order.
That has always been the case, that is why it is important to change the paradigm of the everyday discussion on the left, rather than simply expecting political leaders who lead some "movement" to do the work for us.

Let me give a current example of the kind of shift that I think this article hints at:

I have had a number of conversations recently with women I know about the all the sexual abuse scandals in the news. I notice that a central concern of most of the women I've talked about it is simply their lack of agency in the workplace to deal with situations (altogether common) where someone in power is harassing or abusing them. They feel (rightly so I imagine) that they would not be listened to, and might even lose their jobs or face other retaliation when they attempt to get redress for their grievances.

I note that most of the middle to upper class women I have talked to only perceived the personal dimension of the problem - that men "view" them a certain way, that they need more "male allies", and that there is so much "implicit bias" that many men do not notice the overall environment of sexism they work in. This is all well and good, it is good to know these things, to make more men aware of these things, they are real, serious concerns. However, a large part of the problem functionally is simply that they do not have the power at work to stop someone from harassing them..that is not simply a problem of the attitudes of individual men.

That said, as they say, shit rolls downhill. If middle and upper class women face this kind of restriction on their autonomy at work, we can only assume it is even worse for women further down the economic totem pole. In fact, funnily enough we rarely even hear from these women at all, presumably because they are less listened to, less visible, have even less room to speak out, and their stories rarely if ever even make the news.

I am not sure that awareness building, public call-outs and shaming, "ally conversion", or focus on men's individual attitudes is going to help that much outside of the liberal bubble. People have to get together, work as a group, and demand change in workplaces (you know, where most of this stuff is happening. ), and ultimately demand that women (well, hopefully not just women, but here that is the focus) have more autonomy and redress for their grievances within them. That actually involves unionization, or something similar - some sort of collective effort at bottom-up solidarity to support women having equal say in the workplace - beyond the lip service, tokenism and "diversity", and reliance on symbolic legislation that exists today.

I have hardly seen anyone talk about this though, even though these issues have largely occurred in the power dynamic of the modern workplace, the discussion goes always to how we change the thinking of individuals..while that might be a laudable goal, it is instructive to me that people on the left are now conditioned to literally turn away from the elephant in the room when it is time to get something done.
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Lindama
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Re: Trump Tweets

Post by Lindama » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:54 pm

apologies, if it's cruel and unBuddhist. I'm not wishing for anything.... but, it's known that Trump loves burgers and fries, I think McD tho not sure about that part. It's more like letting nature take it's course. I make a point of not spending time disliking the man, tho I do. I'd rather focus on articles like I posted, the tax bill from hell, US unending war, etc.. It's not healthy to internalize these energies....

Minobu, I've come to appreciate your style.... good pan-dharma

Minobu wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:30 pm
Lindama wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:35 am
yes
if you are wishing heart attacks on people...i suggest a stint in Nichiren Daishonin's practice.

when i was young at this practice the three mile Island nuclear accident occurred, Match 28th 1979.

I was terrified of the fallout coming to toronto ...so i chanted for the wind to blow it away , and yes indeed we had a northerly wind which i was checking ..

all proud of this i told one of the Japanese senior members who actually introduced me to the practice.

the response was thus...with a deeply penetrating gaze and scowl he asked this"So you wished this to go to others?"

nothing was said on my part but i Realized the extent to what proper thinking is all about in this Buddhist practice.
wishing bad on others for your own benefit is just a road best left alone.

This practice really does afford one to be in direct presence with our Lord Buddha and have various teachings that one personally needs actually happen.

i guess my disdain for mean ness in people jumped to the forefront when mr. Iwasaki scowled at me and with little more than a question and a look induce in me a life changing moment.
it was indeed mean of me wishing bad on others and actually chanting for it to happen...even if it was like i just don;t want this stuff in my neighborhood...they caused it so let them have it then... bad...really bad ...
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho

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Re: Trump Tweets

Post by Minobu » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:33 pm

Lindama wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:54 pm


Minobu, I've come to appreciate your style.... good pan-dharma

well deep down i know your one of the good ones...
i just use what i read to express myself.

it's as much for me as others...

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Re: Trump Tweets

Post by Minobu » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:35 pm

a gift for Lindama

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Re: Trump Tweets

Post by Lindama » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:49 pm

Thank you kindly, Minobu. I'm smilin'
:anjali:
Minobu wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:35 pm
a gift for Lindama
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho

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Re: Trump Tweets

Post by Jeff H » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:59 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:21 pm
...
I am not sure that awareness building, public call-outs and shaming, "ally conversion", or focus on men's individual attitudes is going to help that much outside of the liberal bubble. People have to get together, work as a group, and demand change in workplaces (you know, where most of this stuff is happening. ), and ultimately demand that women (well, hopefully not just women, but here that is the focus) have more autonomy and redress for their grievances within them. That actually involves unionization, or something similar - some sort of collective effort at bottom-up solidarity to support women having equal say in the workplace - beyond the lip service, tokenism and "diversity", and reliance on symbolic legislation that exists today.

I have hardly seen anyone talk about this though, even though these issues have largely occurred in the power dynamic of the modern workplace, the discussion goes always to how we change the thinking of individuals..while that might be a laudable goal, it is instructive to me that people on the left are now conditioned to literally turn away from the elephant in the room when it is time to get something done.
Good comparison, JD, and thanks for your optimistic and clarifying reply.

I must admit, however, I continue to put my hopes in Dharma because, as unimaginable as enlightenment is, it nevertheless seems plausible through personal effort (shoes on the feet). I am much more cynical about societal rehabilitation because it requires so much cooperation (a world covered in leather).

I think of how much blood and suffering was required to create unions, and then how they got co-opted and now (in some cases) act like spoiled children even with well-meaning organizations. Strong, focused cooperation of some form is so much needed in many ways throughout the 99%, but I'm unable to imagine how it can come together.

Granted, it's my poverty of vision, but I would love to see it.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: Trump Tweets

Post by Jeff H » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:02 pm

Lindama wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:49 pm
Thank you kindly, Minobu. I'm smilin'
:anjali:
Minobu wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:35 pm
a gift for Lindama
This is a most remarkable thread!! :cheers:
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: Trump Tweets

Post by Grigoris » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:36 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:17 pm
Apart from the fact that because of American power, Russians are not invading Europe, though they are trying to destroy the EU by backing fascists in every country.

https://nltimes.nl/2017/11/22/wilders-d ... ussophobia
At least they are being sneaky and underhanded about their support, the blundering idiot the U$ has for president, on the other hand...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: Trump Tweets

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:23 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:36 pm
At least they are being sneaky and underhanded about their support, the blundering idiot the U$ has for president, on the other hand...
Sneaky and underhanded, like, by loaning Le Pen millions?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Trump Tweets

Post by Dan74 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:08 pm

Many interesting observations here. I wish I had the time to put together a serious commentary, but let me just pick up a bit from JD's post for now:


Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:21 pm
I want to agree with Fraser, but her article doesn’t factor in the current trend of personalized facts, where people believe anything they think (or are told by people-like-us) is true.
This is all the more reason to stop turning every Trump Voter into a caricature, and someone who cannot be "reached" by an alternative message. As someone who grew up working class and white, and has been around plenty of "those people" I can honestly say that I believe many of them are much smarter than your average liberal gives them credit for. Right now there is simply no message that even acknowledges their existence, let alone speaks to them - other than Trump's. That is a toxic situation, and the only real solution is a movement on the left with different priorities, and a break with the neoliberal, identitarian approach of the past. It doesn't even need to be a radical movement at all, just an anti-neo liberal movement with focus on bread and butter economics and the material conditions of working people would be a start. Right now we don't have that at all on the left, so speculating about the tough media situation really doesn't matter...there is no real alternative message out there anyway, not hard for "post truth" messaging to win against nothing.
What about Sanders (and if you follow the UK politics, Corbyn)? Do you not see them as responding to exactly these concerns, or do you mean since Sanders was knocked out of the race, people had no real alternative when it came to the vote?
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:21 pm

Let me give a current example of the kind of shift that I think this article hints at:

I have had a number of conversations recently with women I know about the all the sexual abuse scandals in the news. I notice that a central concern of most of the women I've talked about it is simply their lack of agency in the workplace to deal with situations (altogether common) where someone in power is harassing or abusing them. They feel (rightly so I imagine) that they would not be listened to, and might even lose their jobs or face other retaliation when they attempt to get redress for their grievances.

I note that most of the middle to upper class women I have talked to only perceived the personal dimension of the problem - that men "view" them a certain way, that they need more "male allies", and that there is so much "implicit bias" that many men do not notice the overall environment of sexism they work in. This is all well and good, it is good to know these things, to make more men aware of these things, they are real, serious concerns. However, a large part of the problem functionally is simply that they do not have the power at work to stop someone from harassing them..that is not simply a problem of the attitudes of individual men.

That said, as they say, shit rolls downhill. If middle and upper class women face this kind of restriction on their autonomy at work, we can only assume it is even worse for women further down the economic totem pole. In fact, funnily enough we rarely even hear from these women at all, presumably because they are less listened to, less visible, have even less room to speak out, and their stories rarely if ever even make the news.

I am not sure that awareness building, public call-outs and shaming, "ally conversion", or focus on men's individual attitudes is going to help that much outside of the liberal bubble. People have to get together, work as a group, and demand change in workplaces (you know, where most of this stuff is happening. ), and ultimately demand that women (well, hopefully not just women, but here that is the focus) have more autonomy and redress for their grievances within them. That actually involves unionization, or something similar - some sort of collective effort at bottom-up solidarity to support women having equal say in the workplace - beyond the lip service, tokenism and "diversity", and reliance on symbolic legislation that exists today.

I have hardly seen anyone talk about this though, even though these issues have largely occurred in the power dynamic of the modern workplace, the discussion goes always to how we change the thinking of individuals..while that might be a laudable goal, it is instructive to me that people on the left are now conditioned to literally turn away from the elephant in the room when it is time to get something done.
To my ears what you are pointing to is an oppressive and dehumanising organisational structures that are the rule in our society and that lend themselves to abuse by those in position of power and subsequent cover-up. Sexual abuse is only one part of it. The broader nature of abusive and toxic work environments that lead to depression, anxiety and wide-spread anhedonia, is still considered acceptable. As is often the case we zero in on one aspect of the problem, typically one that affects the glitterati and the prominenti or at least the urbanite middle-class. As you said, rural and working class has been largely forgotten. Don't know if you care about the Australian perspective, but here's an article that touched on similar issues that may be of interest, makes a few very good points, IMO. https://meanjin.com.au/essays/in-defenc ... ing-class/

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Re: Trump Tweets

Post by Grigoris » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:23 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:36 pm
At least they are being sneaky and underhanded about their support, the blundering idiot the U$ has for president, on the other hand...
Sneaky and underhanded, like, by loaning Le Pen millions?
And they didn't tweet about it...

But you seem to be forgetting that Trump had Putin's "backing" too.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Trump Tweets

Post by Queequeg » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:02 pm

Jeff H wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:59 pm
I must admit, however, I continue to put my hopes in Dharma because, as unimaginable as enlightenment is, it nevertheless seems plausible through personal effort (shoes on the feet). I am much more cynical about societal rehabilitation because it requires so much cooperation (a world covered in leather).
I went to law school young - straight from undergraduate - with visions of a career, crusading for justice... I went to one of the most progressive law schools in the US (Northeastern) where I found like minded peers and this vision was robustly cultivated by the faculty as well as the entire culture at the school. Half way through my second year, probably in Constitutional Law, I had an an epiphany of sorts and nearly stood up and walked out of school for good. In retrospect, my visions were naive, but I was young - 22 or so. I realized that no matter how successful I was as a lawyer, no matter how great a victory could be won at the Supreme Court, none of it would ever really affect the factors that lay at the root of all the problems in the world. In a sense, that was the moment I realized the futility of the life that would unfold if I continued to follow the rules of the palace. Not to compare myself to the Buddha, but that was my real moment of disillusionment with samsara.

At the time I was nominally Buddhist, having inherited the tradition from my family, and I'm sure the background played some role in my realization, but that moment marked my turn toward Dharma in earnest out of my own motivation and not out of a sense of duty or obligation to my parents. That's where I realized that indeed, as I had heard passively all my life, that real peace and happiness emanates from within and does not come to us through circumstances. Of course, there is a lot we can do for each other to make the material and social conditions better, but these only go so far and ultimately fail to take us further, where real work needs to be done.

I completely agree that only Dharma offers hope for rehabilitation of the person as well as society.
I think of how much blood and suffering was required to create unions, and then how they got co-opted and now (in some cases) act like spoiled children even with well-meaning organizations. Strong, focused cooperation of some form is so much needed in many ways throughout the 99%, but I'm unable to imagine how it can come together.

Granted, it's my poverty of vision, but I would love to see it.
The connection between those people who fought Pinkertons in the street for the right to organize and the union member punching the clock and gaming the rules is nearly impossible to fathom until you take human nature into consideration. And human nature is in a sense precisely what Dharma is aimed at.

I don't know if that is a poverty of vision. If so, I'm as impoverished as you.

I think that is the Mahayana vision.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Trump Tweets

Post by Jeff H » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:33 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:02 pm
The connection between those people who fought Pinkertons in the street for the right to organize and the union member punching the clock and gaming the rules is nearly impossible to fathom until you take human nature into consideration. And human nature is in a sense precisely what Dharma is aimed at.
I’d add that, more than the worker’s who fought the Pinkertons and the present-day members gaming the rules, it’s the leaders who influence the expression of their human nature.

Nancy Fraser is trying to invoke bodhisattva-like organizers who can motivate ordinary people to act beyond self-preservation in the name of reason and enlightened self-interest. It is so much easier to motivate people, as our leaders today are doing, to reject reason and settle for depraved self-interest in the name of self-preservation.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: Trump Tweets

Post by Queequeg » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:26 pm

Jeff H wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:33 pm
Nancy Fraser is trying to invoke bodhisattva-like organizers who can motivate ordinary people to act beyond self-preservation in the name of reason and enlightened self-interest. It is so much easier to motivate people, as our leaders today are doing, to reject reason and settle for depraved self-interest in the name of self-preservation.
I don't know much about Nancy Fraser in particular, but back when I was more woke and tuned in to labor issues, the new frontier was organizing service workers, custodial staff, graduate students, etc., a departure from industrial and trade occupations. I remember a number of issues coming up - a change in approach due to the demographics in the service industries - largely female, largely non-white, non-native English speakers. I remember hearing from one salty old organizer who had been working with construction workers for decades talking about having to change his approach to talk to Latinas on their way to their hotel housekeeping jobs. Part of the difficulty was convincing people with no union backgrounds on why it made sense to organize. It takes years of explaining the logic and addressing the concerns of organizing, and ultimately showing the power of collective bargaining. That's a long haul that involves a lot of educating people, often with little to show in the beginning. Its the same thing those old unions had to go through - it takes a lot of conviction to take a beating for an idea.

You see this lack of understanding about the benefits of unions in the move of automakers to "Right to Work" states where there is no labor tradition among the people who live there. Workers are often bought in to management's disparagement of unions, playing up the fears and prejudices inherent in the rural/urban divide (the same division the Republicans used to defeat the Populists back at the turn of the 20th c., and ironically, the same division the Republicans exploit now, though with an opposite dynamic). The picture of union busting right now is probably Walmart.

If we're talking about bodhisattva-like behavior among union organizers, there's a tradition of this in the US - Eugene Debs comes to mind. And Harry Bridges. These days, I think of the guy who led SEIU Local 1199 in NY back in the 90s...

I'm rambling at this point, but, back in the early days of OWS, the Verizon workers turned out... for a hot minute, the OWS dropouts and labor came together... I think OWS became Sanders' core support... need the unions to come over.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Trump Tweets

Post by Jeff H » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:04 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:26 pm
If we're talking about bodhisattva-like behavior among union organizers, there's a tradition of this in the US.
Yes, that was my reference.
Workers are often bought in to management's disparagement of unions, playing up the fears and prejudices inherent in the rural/urban divide (the same division the Republicans used to defeat the Populists back at the turn of the 20th c., and ironically, the same division the Republicans exploit now, though with an opposite dynamic).
And these are the people Nancy Fraser is talking about joining with in a hegemonic bloc.

Actually, the context for my remarks is the Fraser article Lindama posted. Fraser speaks of the current “crisis of hegemony” which has come about because of a successful overthrow of the American hegemonic bloc that developed after WWII. She calls the “hegemonic gap” thus created a crisis because Trump, as it’s champion, simply can’t deliver a sustained new order.

She defines a hegemonic bloc in terms of how it allocates distribution of resources and recognition (that is, who gets the respect and esteem) and discusses the contributing conditions and ripening responses in this particular change of bloc. She identifies the trends being abandon as progressive neoliberalism and reactionary neoliberalism. She characterizes the current hegemony as a form of reactionary populism and argues that the antidote must be progressive populism.

Anyway, all my comments are in reference to how she imagines effective alliances coming together to realize where the real best interests of ordinary people converge. I used the union example in my reply to JD because of exactly the elements you are talking about here: Understanding how to create productive dialog between disparate interest groups and forging movements in which many people are willing to sacrifice and suffer for a common good.

I think it is more than ...
years of explaining the logic and addressing the concerns of organizing, and ultimately showing the power of collective bargaining. That's a long haul that involves a lot of educating people, often with little to show in the beginning. Its the same thing those old unions had to go through - it takes a lot of conviction to take a beating for an idea.
... precisely because taking a beating is not a metaphor. Power is a real force that never negotiates or concedes, but it is very, very good at co-opting and wrathful vengeance.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: Trump Tweets

Post by Lindama » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:48 am

Thanks for that Jeff. It is a "crisis of hegemony". From that perspective, it's not politics as usual.... a new paradigm perhaps. It gets at peoples core experience. It seems ppl often vote their feelings. I don't have any idea how the dis-enfranchised view the world apart from understanding basics like jobs and healthcare. When people feel powerless, they look to power to rescue them. This is what I find distasteful in the pink hat/ear phenomena ... Fraser is looking at that. It is compassion in a higher octave. That is what I was pointing at in my first post, I was starting to see how I/we are complicit. It's so much more than getting the right candidate or organization. this is so pervasive, it's still seeping in ... just a few thoughts

until I read that article, I had a somewhat skewed idea of hegemony... ie, the US imperialist operation. while hegemony points to a collective world view supporting the operation. .... just off the top, I could be wrong. I'm far from expert. I'm not very optimistic that such change can be engineered, but then we never thought the Berlin Wall would come down. A little nudge at the right time is often enough.
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
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Re: Trump Tweets

Post by Jeff H » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:55 pm

Lindama wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:48 am
Thanks for that Jeff. It is a "crisis of hegemony". From that perspective, it's not politics as usual.... a new paradigm perhaps. It gets at peoples core experience. It seems ppl often vote their feelings. I don't have any idea how the dis-enfranchised view the world apart from understanding basics like jobs and healthcare. When people feel powerless, they look to power to rescue them. This is what I find distasteful in the pink hat/ear phenomena ... Fraser is looking at that. It is compassion in a higher octave. That is what I was pointing at in my first post, I was starting to see how I/we are complicit. It's so much more than getting the right candidate or organization. this is so pervasive, it's still seeping in ... just a few thoughts

until I read that article, I had a somewhat skewed idea of hegemony... ie, the US imperialist operation. while hegemony points to a collective world view supporting the operation. .... just off the top, I could be wrong. I'm far from expert. I'm not very optimistic that such change can be engineered, but then we never thought the Berlin Wall would come down. A little nudge at the right time is often enough.
Yes, I think perhaps we are in a similar place, you and I, Linda.

Complicity in pervasive suffering seems so evident to me when looking at Trumpism and thinking about counter measures. I just did a series of reflections on lojong and it really brought out for me how many sneaky ways I use to mask my self-grasping and self-cherishing and secretly nurture my ego. That’s part of my complicity because the power structure and society itself are so in tune with my ego-wishes that I quietly acquiesce, even as I protest, without any real awareness. But as Shantideva says, it isn’t them, it’s me:
In chapter 4 Shantideva wrote: 35. And if the jail guards of the prisons of saṃsāra,
The butchers and tormentors of infernal realms,
All lurk within me in the web of craving,
What joy can ever be my destiny?
Samsara will be like this forever, but nevertheless, it is the bodhisattva ideal to ease manifest suffering while working to eliminate pervasive suffering. That was the point of my reference to the nobility of people like the early union organizers; I see the bodhisattva motivation in them. In enlightenment the perfect responses come spontaneously. But on the way one hopes to see a progression of ever greater discernment and maturing responses that actually benefit both sides in the world -- those we feel are the perpetrators and those we feel are the recipients.

Sadly, I don’t see it in myself much. I don’t really see which way pro-positive action lies. I think this is where the need for refuge can be seen, but I don’t want to fool myself into merely hiding behind refuge.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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fuki
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Re: Trump Tweets

Post by fuki » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:37 pm

Lindama wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:48 am
. It seems ppl often vote their feelings.
And their "feelings" are often out of self-interest right?
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen nederland.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

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Lindama
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Re: Trump Tweets

Post by Lindama » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:47 pm

well, I'd say we can be kind to ourselves. We always fool ourselves until we don't. Only ego thinks it can transcend and become a better person. My zen teacher always said zen is not a self-improvement project. He was not giving license for bad behavior. I have been taught lojon by zen teachers. So we can relax and notice, practice. There is no way to take responsibility for worldly events. The pervasive nature is like a fish recognizing water, and the multi-dimension relationships. For me, hegemony must be looked at both individual and collectively.
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho

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Lindama
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Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:26 pm
Location: Forestville, CA usa

Re: Trump Tweets

Post by Lindama » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:50 pm

fuki wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:37 pm
Lindama wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:48 am
. It seems ppl often vote their feelings.
And their "feelings" are often out of self-interest right?
sure, including people whose children go to bed hungry, haven't had a decent job since they lost it, are labeled as deplorable. it's ain't easy
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho

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