sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

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Queequeg
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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by Queequeg » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:15 pm

MeToo makes me happy for my daughter. Happy to an extent for my son, but also concerned for how the backlash against boys just got another round of ammo.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by DGA » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:22 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:03 pm
DGA wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:53 pm

Franken blew it today, by the way.
He had no choice. His statement was correct:
I, of all people, am aware that there is some irony in the fact that I am leaving while a man who has bragged on tape about his history of the sexual assault sits in the Oval Office and a man who has repeatedly preyed on young girls campaigns for the Senate with the full support of his party.
The GOP has basically decided they don't care how awful a person one might be, they just care that one says and votes the way they want one to say and vote. As long as one goes along with their program, one can be an accused rapist (Trump) or pedophile (Moore) and still get elected. The GOP has abandoned anything like a moral standing.
When I say he blew it, I mean that he didn't leverage his moment in the spotlight as strategically as he could have. He came off as frazzled and put-upon.

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Malcolm
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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by Malcolm » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:23 pm

Ricky wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:56 pm

Nobody wants to blame the sexual revolution of the 60s for this grotesqueness?
Absolutely not. It was much worse for women in the 1960's and before. Before the 1960's, if husband beat his wife and kids, no one would interfere, not the cops, not the courts, and not the schools. Moreover, male infidelity was considered normal. Patting women in the ass, making lewd comments at work, etc., were all commonplace, not exceptions, and certainly no one would have been fired for what people are being dismissed for today.

Moreover, the sexual revolution was not a revolution at all in terms of how women were treated. The "revolution," such as it was, was that men were able to have sex with women without major fear of pregnancy. But "sexual revolution" merely exposed how one sided things were for women. Thus, women, taking a clue from the civil rights movement, started the feminist movement. Sadly, Europe is still very backwards when it comes to women's rights. This is why Buddhist teachers who like assaulting women avoid the US.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by Malcolm » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:23 pm

DGA wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:22 pm

When I say he blew it, I mean that he didn't leverage his moment in the spotlight as strategically as he could have. He came off as frazzled and put-upon.

Oh, you mean he came off as he actually was. I agree.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by Malcolm » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:34 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:15 pm
MeToo makes me happy for my daughter. Happy to an extent for my son, but also concerned for how the backlash against boys just got another round of ammo.
Just tell him to keep his hands to himself and his head down.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by DGA » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:07 am

Generally, those straight men who communicate well, treat women like people and not property, and treat all people with courtesy and respect, lead very happy lives. These are not the ones who struggle to get laid or who wind up having to apologize for being handsy creeps (or worse).

This is among the best arguments against rape culture and against sexual harassment:

Guys, don't be like those nervous-looking, self-hating MRAs who never got enough. Being a grownup is a lot more fun and much less stressful: respect women, respect yourself, and enjoy the party.





(in other words, not all masculinity is toxic, and male desire, whatever that may be, is not necessarily a threat to life or to civilization or an object of universal approbation. Gentlemen, if you earn the trust of even a few straight women, and you listen to them with care, this will be obvious to you.)

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by TharpaChodron » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:47 am

The sexual revolution didn't change the inherent patriarchy of society. It was a move in the right direction, but was co-opted by the overarching power structure to become another way to justify abuse of women. I think these left-leaning liberals and Charlie Rose sorts are a product of that false idea that equality means that women want to be sexualized and treated like men think they would want to be treated by women. I think that both right-wing males with their false dichotomy of all woman as either virgins,good wives/whores and the liberal version of "free women" who are lascivious, are both totally unfair and wrong ideas.

And as Ayu said, in Europe, I don't think things are much more enlightened in this regard, if at all. I thought they were before I naively set foot there.

There's a book called "Woman at Point Zero," by an Egyptian feminist writer, which elucidated this point, albeit in a fictional story. The hero finds her experiences in an arranged marriage, prostitution, and with a revolutionary (think Julian Assange) were all invalidating of her basic humanity.

And for what your son can do, to me, it's not putting his head down, quite the opposite. He needs to look around himself, learn to communicate his feelings and respect others. Men don't need to walk on egg shells, just be in touch with reality. It's not hard.

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by Brunelleschi » Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:22 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:23 pm
Moreover, the sexual revolution was not a revolution at all in terms of how women were treated. The "revolution," such as it was, was that men were able to have sex with women without major fear of pregnancy. But "sexual revolution" merely exposed how one sided things were for women. Thus, women, taking a clue from the civil rights movement, started the feminist movement. Sadly, Europe is still very backwards when it comes to women's rights. This is why Buddhist teachers who like assaulting women avoid the US.
1. I'm going to need a source on that.
2. You can't speak of "Europe" as if it were a country.

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by Dan74 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:15 pm

justsit wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:42 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:26 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:14 pm
... even more uptight about sex.
Um ... you want to live in a country that is more sexualized than the US?
That's the problem, US is "Sexualized" but not "sexually mature." Two different things.

Puritan background apparently precludes a mature attitude towards sex here, leading to perpetual adolescent behaviors. We give lip service to "Christian" values, all the while devouring more porn than ever. It's a powder keg, and frequently it, ahem, blows.

Europe doesn't seem to have this problem.
A rising political star and member of parliament here in Switzerland just resigned due to stalking and some other related behaviour. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/y ... n/43726188. Generally it seems to me that there are the same problems here, though I am no expert.

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by Queequeg » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:34 pm

Re: my son - but let's generalize this about all boys and girls who are growing up now.

In my heart, I'm afraid Malcolm's advice is the practical and realistic advice - "Son, keep your hands to yourself and your head down." I don't want to draw too much of a parallel, but its similar to the advice my black friends tell their sons - "Behave and keep your head down around the police." That is not a healthy message especially to teens exploring and figuring out their sexuality.

What I'm afraid of is the wild pendulum swing we will see in sex ed; similar things have happened over the years in schools. What I'm going to write might be somewhat controversial and I'm open to alternate views.

There is a general difference in children's behavior by sex. The distinction is not universal, but on the whole, anyone who has been around children will see it:
Boys are generally rougher and more rambunctious than girls. The way boys interact with each other and the way they participate in class and learn is different. Girls are socially more tuned in to each other (though that mode of interaction has its own problems - I don't think I've seen anything as vicious as tween and teen girls when they start bullying each other, but we're not talking about that here) but tend to be less vocal in class, especially when boys are around. My wife tells me she observes this even with her Ivy league students who you'd think would break that trend.

What I'm sort of clumsily trying to get at is that to an extent, normal boy behavior has been pathologized, commonly labeled ADD and ADHD, along with the occasional autism spectrum diagnosis.

I'm concerned that as the MeToo movement is translated into education curricula, what we'll see is educators going overboard to the point that little boys and girls are not taught to be comfortable with sexuality, but will have a whole new set of hangups that will fall especially hard on boys.

It'd be great if schools became the enlightened institutions they could be, preparing us and socializing us for the kind of well adjusted life we envision. The track record so far does not auger well when movements like this sweep through.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by Queequeg » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:52 pm

What I'm sort of clumsily trying to get at is that to an extent, normal boy behavior has been pathologized, commonly labeled ADD and ADHD, along with the occasional autism spectrum diagnosis.
I realized I did not finish this thought. Class organization and structure has been changed over the years to accommodate normative girl behavior and learning styles, while the same changes have had detrimental effects on boys, as I wrote, pathologizing them. There is probably a strong argument for segregating schools by sex, but that might have its problems also.

I don't have a solution.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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dzogchungpa
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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:08 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:52 pm
What I'm sort of clumsily trying to get at is that to an extent, normal boy behavior has been pathologized, commonly labeled ADD and ADHD, along with the occasional autism spectrum diagnosis.
I realized I did not finish this thought. Class organization and structure has been changed over the years to accommodate normative girl behavior and learning styles, while the same changes have had detrimental effects on boys, as I wrote, pathologizing them. There is probably a strong argument for segregating schools by sex, but that might have its problems also.

I don't have a solution.


Dude, you're beginning to sound like one of those nervous-looking, self-hating MRAs who never got enough.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by Ricky » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:34 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:15 pm
MeToo makes me happy for my daughter. Happy to an extent for my son, but also concerned for how the backlash against boys just got another round of ammo.
Just tell him to keep his hands to himself and his head down.
Why stop there? How about castration of all boys? That should be the next logical step.

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by Ricky » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:15 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:52 pm
What I'm sort of clumsily trying to get at is that to an extent, normal boy behavior has been pathologized, commonly labeled ADD and ADHD, along with the occasional autism spectrum diagnosis.
I realized I did not finish this thought. Class organization and structure has been changed over the years to accommodate normative girl behavior and learning styles, while the same changes have had detrimental effects on boys, as I wrote, pathologizing them. There is probably a strong argument for segregating schools by sex, but that might have its problems also.

I don't have a solution.
Segregation would be the best option. I remember I was much more focused on learning in school when there were less girls around in the classroom.

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by Queequeg » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:46 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:08 pm
Dude, you're beginning to sound like one of those nervous-looking, self-hating MRAs who never got enough.
Oh, jeez. I had to look up what MRA is.

Well, I've never gotten enough. Middle age is a welcome mellow.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

Ricky
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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by Ricky » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:53 pm

DGA wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:07 am
Generally, those straight men who communicate well, treat women like people and not property, and treat all people with courtesy and respect, lead very happy lives. These are not the ones who struggle to get laid or who wind up having to apologize for being handsy creeps (or worse).

This is among the best arguments against rape culture and against sexual harassment:

Guys, don't be like those nervous-looking, self-hating MRAs who never got enough. Being a grownup is a lot more fun and much less stressful: respect women, respect yourself, and enjoy the party.





(in other words, not all masculinity is toxic, and male desire, whatever that may be, is not necessarily a threat to life or to civilization or an object of universal approbation. Gentlemen, if you earn the trust of even a few straight women, and you listen to them with care, this will be obvious to you.)
One should treat all people with respect regardless of their gender (or race, religion). This is basic common sense. If a woman treats me with respect, I will respect here back, if not then don't expect the same from me. Same goes with everyone else.

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by Motova » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:03 pm

One of my professors told us about a Ojibwe tradition that consisted of bringing an adolescent boy into a tent with a young naked woman (and possibly a clothed elder woman in the background or outside) and they would just have a conversation (I forget about what) to humanize women for the young horny boy.

I'm pretty sure it's a dead tradition, he might have been one of the last people to experience it.

I think we need to bring this back to Canadian culture. :twothumbsup:
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Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:12 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:46 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:08 pm
Dude, you're beginning to sound like one of those nervous-looking, self-hating MRAs who never got enough.
Oh, jeez. I had to look up what MRA is.

Well, I've never gotten enough. Middle age is a welcome mellow.

Honestly, if dzogchungma hadn't already lassoed me I would probably be a MGTOW or in my case, I guess, a BGTOW (Buddhists going their own way, pronounced 'big toe').
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by justsit » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:40 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:15 pm
justsit wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:42 pm
Europe doesn't seem to have this problem.
A rising political star and member of parliament here in Switzerland just resigned due to stalking and some other related behaviour. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/y ... n/43726188. Generally it seems to me that there are the same problems here, though I am no expert.
OK, seems I wasn't clear. What I meant was that Europeans do not seem to have the problem of adolescent attitudes about sexuality like many Americans do. I did NOT mean that there is no issue with sexual harassment in Europe.

Example: French TV ran an ad promoting use of condoms. It showed an unsheathed cartoon penis chasing cartoon vaginas around a bathroom. No luck. Finally a real person came in, drew a condom on, and voila, PIV. There are ads on Spanish TV with actors - at least one a porn star - demonstrating how to use a condom, on himself.

It will be a cold day in hell - or at least the next millennium - before anything like that appears on US TV.

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by Queequeg » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:41 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:12 pm
Honestly, if dzogchungma hadn't already lassoed me I would probably be a MGTOW or in my case, I guess, a BGTOW (Buddhists going their own way, pronounced 'big toe').
BGTOW... isn't that Hinayana?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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