sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

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dzogchungpa
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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:44 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:41 pm
BGTOW... isn't that Hinayana?

:applause:



Actually, I think the Buddha is kind of an inspiration for many MGTOW.
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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by Queequeg » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:49 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:44 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:41 pm
BGTOW... isn't that Hinayana?

:applause:



Actually, I think the Buddha is kind of an inspiration for many MGTOW.
True... the OG MGTOW, you could say. Yashodhara was not pleased.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by Norwegian » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:57 pm

justsit wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:40 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:15 pm
justsit wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:42 pm
Europe doesn't seem to have this problem.
A rising political star and member of parliament here in Switzerland just resigned due to stalking and some other related behaviour. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/y ... n/43726188. Generally it seems to me that there are the same problems here, though I am no expert.
OK, seems I wasn't clear. What I meant was that Europeans do not seem to have the problem of adolescent attitudes about sexuality like many Americans do. I did NOT mean that there is no issue with sexual harassment in Europe.

Example: French TV ran an ad promoting use of condoms. It showed an unsheathed cartoon penis chasing cartoon vaginas around a bathroom. No luck. Finally a real person came in, drew a condom on, and voila, PIV. There are ads on Spanish TV with actors - at least one a porn star - demonstrating how to use a condom, on himself.

It will be a cold day in hell - or at least the next millennium - before anything like that appears on US TV.
Right.

America = Ultra-violent entertainment is completely fine. Nobody reacts to that. A woman's nipple is shown on TV = All hell breaks loose, complete mayhem left and right, people screaming and shouting.

Norway = Ultra-violent entertainment may be allowed, but not at the scale of what's found in America. There's strict age limits on these things, and various movies are only shown in the late evening or even close to midnight. A woman's nipple is shown on TV = Nobody cares. There's no outrage.

Actually, re: genitalia, there's been several stories related to sexuality, physical health, or whatever else where a human body is relevant, and both naked men and naked women has been featured in newspaper stories on this, including online newspapers accessible to all. No outrage.

Norwegian government-owned channel NRK has had several different shows on sexuality, sex-ed, and similar, and the TV series I watched when I was a kid, was called "The Body", and was an educational show about the human body, led by a doctor and comedian, who would use large-scale props to explain all the various functions of our body. In one episode about the human reproductive organs, he used large scale models of sperm cells. Everything was physical and large-scale, making it into an exciting adventure for kids to watch. (During evenings a day or two before the episodes of this TV show would air, there was a parent version of the show, where the same host would discuss the topics with another guest, which was a sort of preparatory show for parents whose kids was watching the main show, so that the parents could get information and how to better discuss the content of the show with their kids).

Would a TV show for kids containing sperm cells etc. fly on US TV? Doubt it very much.

Same channel decades later runs a show on human sexuality, and has an episode on masturbation, where the shows host visits a sexologist, and other people, discussing this topic. One of the main features of the episode was a close up filming of a woman's vagina, masturbating to the point of having an orgasm, showing vaginal contractions etc. It was not pornographic in the sense that it was trying to be arousing, but it was filmed as a matter of fact, "this is how the body works". Certainly this bit of the show created a lot of debate, and for sure those citizens of the bible-belt here in Norway were not happy. But they are a minority, and the end of it all was that this series on human sexuality was appreciated. Because it was educational and not pornographic, it was informative, and not speculative, it was about knowledge, and nothing else. In these shows topics like gender, respect, sexism, etc. are also touched upon, so it's not just genitalia or sex, so it's a complete package aiming at educating people, and I think they do a decent job at that. But a show like this on US TV? Not likely.

So, US vs. EU, there's a big difference in general.

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by PuerAzaelis » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:07 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:41 pm
BGTOW... isn't that Hinayana?
Don't knock Hinayana. It's Buddhism with someone you love.
Woody Allen
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:12 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:07 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:41 pm
BGTOW... isn't that Hinayana?
Don't knock Hinayana. It's Buddhism with someone you love.
Woody Allen

Dude, I can't believe you went there ...
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by Queequeg » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:53 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:57 pm
America = Ultra-violent entertainment is completely fine. Nobody reacts to that. A woman's nipple is shown on TV = All hell breaks loose, complete mayhem left and right, people screaming and shouting.
It used to be like that. Not anymore. But that does not mean by any stretch that our attitudes about sexuality are healthy as a whole.

We've merely normalized pornography.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:05 pm

Ricky wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:12 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:34 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:15 pm
MeToo makes me happy for my daughter. Happy to an extent for my son, but also concerned for how the backlash against boys just got another round of ammo.
Just tell him to keep his hands to himself and his head down.
Why stop there? How about castration of all boys? That should be the next logical step.

Really?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by Ricky » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:15 pm

Motova wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:03 pm
One of my professors told us about a Ojibwe tradition that consisted of bringing an adolescent boy into a tent with a young naked woman (and possibly a clothed elder woman in the background or outside) and they would just have a conversation (I forget about what) to humanize women for the young horny boy.

I'm pretty sure it's a dead tradition, he might have been one of the last people to experience it.

I think we need to bring this back to Canadian culture. :twothumbsup:
They should bring back this old tradition. Damn protestants.

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by Dan74 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:59 pm

justsit wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:40 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:15 pm
justsit wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:42 pm
Europe doesn't seem to have this problem.
A rising political star and member of parliament here in Switzerland just resigned due to stalking and some other related behaviour. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/y ... n/43726188. Generally it seems to me that there are the same problems here, though I am no expert.
OK, seems I wasn't clear. What I meant was that Europeans do not seem to have the problem of adolescent attitudes about sexuality like many Americans do. I did NOT mean that there is no issue with sexual harassment in Europe.

Example: French TV ran an ad promoting use of condoms. It showed an unsheathed cartoon penis chasing cartoon vaginas around a bathroom. No luck. Finally a real person came in, drew a condom on, and voila, PIV. There are ads on Spanish TV with actors - at least one a porn star - demonstrating how to use a condom, on himself.

It will be a cold day in hell - or at least the next millennium - before anything like that appears on US TV.
No worries, justsit, I guess there aren't many people outside the English speaking world here. And ive been in Switzerland for less than a year, so I hardly qualify to comment on any things European either.

I can tell you funny stories about Australia though!!

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by DGA » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:00 am

This is a dissenting perspective that is very much worth consideration:
Women, I’m begging you: Think this through. We are fostering a climate in which men legitimately fear us, where their entire professional and personal lives can be casually destroyed by “secret lists” compiled by accusers they cannot confront, by rumors on the internet, by thrilled, breathless reporting denouncing one after another of them as a pig, often based only on the allegation that they did something all-too-human and none-too-criminal like making a lewd joke. Why would we even want men to be subject to such strenuous, arduous taboos against the display of their sexuality? These taboos, note carefully, resemble in non-trivial ways those that have long oppressed women. In a world with such arduous taboos about male purity and chastity, surely, it is rational for men to have as little to do with women as possible. What’s in this for us?
the whole article is worthwhile and provocative

https://www.the-american-interest.com/2 ... lock-hunt/



more:
I’m not sure what, precisely, is now driving us over the edge. But I’d suggest looking at the obvious. The President of the United States is Donald J. Trump. Our country is not what we thought it was. We’re a fading superpower in a world of enemies. The people now running the United States cannot remotely persuade us, even for five minutes, that they know what they’re doing and are capable of keeping us safe. Who among us doesn’t feel profound anxiety about this? Daddy-the-President turns out to be a hapless dotard. Women who had hopefully imagined rough men standing ready to do violence on our behalf so we could sleep peacefully in our beds at night have discovered instead—psychologically speaking—that Daddy is dead.

That’s enough to make anyone go berserk. Perhaps this realization is powering some of the hysteria we’re now seeing about sexual harassment. Rapid social and technological change, a lunatic at the helm, no one knows what tomorrow will bring—we’re primed for a moral panic par excellence. That it has something to do with men and male beastliness is an adaptation to the theology of our era: American culture has been obsessed with gender—the rarer and odder the better—for at least the past decade. What’s more, we really do have an unreconstructed slob in the Oval Office, one who is genuinely offensive to women. Some of the anger directed at these poor groveling schmucks is surely—really—meant for him.

No woman in her right mind would say, “I want the old world back.” We know what that meant for women. Nor would we even consciously think it. But perhaps, instead, we are fantasizing that the old world has come back, rather than confronting something a great deal more frightening: It’s never coming back. We are the grown-ups now. We are in charge.

Maybe it doesn’t matter where the sources of the present moral panic lie. But could we at least get enough of a grip to realize that it is a moral panic—and knock it off? Women, I’m begging you: Please.

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by DGA » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:30 am

meanwhile, what is it about this historical moment? Some of us are losing our damned minds. Consider this artifact from the bourgeois liberal-arts school womens studies major white people space:
Since the election of Donald Trump, I have felt like a clairvoyant who, instead of seeing ghosts, sees the specter of male destruction everywhere I look: in the money I spend, in the industry I work, even in the minds of other women—the ones too foolish to realize that men don’t protect them anymore or, somehow more offensive to me, the ones who’ve cynically embraced the concept of female empowerment as a brand or an excuse for selfishness, effectively wringing the term of its power and significance.

For the first time, I don’t know how to move past my boiling anger or laugh it away. Also for the first time, I have no desire to. Preferable, I now think, is to stop laughing, to become as repulsive as I can in an insult to these men—so many men—who hate women and the women who adulate them. Vanity keeps me from throwing away my makeup and sanity keeps me from, as I often feel the repugnant urge, breaking the mirror with the surface of my own face and leaving us both cracked open. But I also can’t deny my current impulse to become as ugly and unlikeable as I can, merely to serve as constant reminder of the ugliness inflicted upon us. We’ve been told time and time again that prettiness and likability will protect us from harm, that to be good women, we must play by these rules, but this is a lie. Nothing will protect us except for ourselves—and what’s more fortifying than a defensive exterior? There are days when all I want is to become a human road sign, a blinking hazard to any man misfortunate enough to cross my path: “I WANT TO OFFEND YOUR SIGHT. I WANT TO OFFEND YOUR EVERYTHING.”
https://jezebel.com/becoming-ugly-1789622154

OK, I get it, you're in pain and you have no viable strategy moving forward, but where do these impulses lead? Cutting off your own nose to spite someone else's face seems like miserable and counterproductive politics.

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by TharpaChodron » Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:01 am

DGA wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:30 am
meanwhile, what is it about this historical moment? Some of us are losing our damned minds. Consider this artifact from the bourgeois liberal-arts school womens studies major white people space:
Since the election of Donald Trump, I have felt like a clairvoyant who, instead of seeing ghosts, sees the specter of male destruction everywhere I look: in the money I spend, in the industry I work, even in the minds of other women—the ones too foolish to realize that men don’t protect them anymore or, somehow more offensive to me, the ones who’ve cynically embraced the concept of female empowerment as a brand or an excuse for selfishness, effectively wringing the term of its power and significance.

For the first time, I don’t know how to move past my boiling anger or laugh it away. Also for the first time, I have no desire to. Preferable, I now think, is to stop laughing, to become as repulsive as I can in an insult to these men—so many men—who hate women and the women who adulate them. Vanity keeps me from throwing away my makeup and sanity keeps me from, as I often feel the repugnant urge, breaking the mirror with the surface of my own face and leaving us both cracked open. But I also can’t deny my current impulse to become as ugly and unlikeable as I can, merely to serve as constant reminder of the ugliness inflicted upon us. We’ve been told time and time again that prettiness and likability will protect us from harm, that to be good women, we must play by these rules, but this is a lie. Nothing will protect us except for ourselves—and what’s more fortifying than a defensive exterior? There are days when all I want is to become a human road sign, a blinking hazard to any man misfortunate enough to cross my path: “I WANT TO OFFEND YOUR SIGHT. I WANT TO OFFEND YOUR EVERYTHING.”
https://jezebel.com/becoming-ugly-1789622154

OK, I get it, you're in pain and you have no viable strategy moving forward, but where do these impulses lead? Cutting off your own nose to spite someone else's face seems like miserable and counterproductive politics.
The DSM is going to have to create a new category for "Millennial Adjustment Disorder."

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:26 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:01 am
DGA wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:30 am
meanwhile, what is it about this historical moment? Some of us are losing our damned minds. Consider this artifact from the bourgeois liberal-arts school womens studies major white people space:
Since the election of Donald Trump, I have felt like a clairvoyant who, instead of seeing ghosts, sees the specter of male destruction everywhere I look: in the money I spend, in the industry I work, even in the minds of other women—the ones too foolish to realize that men don’t protect them anymore or, somehow more offensive to me, the ones who’ve cynically embraced the concept of female empowerment as a brand or an excuse for selfishness, effectively wringing the term of its power and significance.

For the first time, I don’t know how to move past my boiling anger or laugh it away. Also for the first time, I have no desire to. Preferable, I now think, is to stop laughing, to become as repulsive as I can in an insult to these men—so many men—who hate women and the women who adulate them. Vanity keeps me from throwing away my makeup and sanity keeps me from, as I often feel the repugnant urge, breaking the mirror with the surface of my own face and leaving us both cracked open. But I also can’t deny my current impulse to become as ugly and unlikeable as I can, merely to serve as constant reminder of the ugliness inflicted upon us. We’ve been told time and time again that prettiness and likability will protect us from harm, that to be good women, we must play by these rules, but this is a lie. Nothing will protect us except for ourselves—and what’s more fortifying than a defensive exterior? There are days when all I want is to become a human road sign, a blinking hazard to any man misfortunate enough to cross my path: “I WANT TO OFFEND YOUR SIGHT. I WANT TO OFFEND YOUR EVERYTHING.”
https://jezebel.com/becoming-ugly-1789622154

OK, I get it, you're in pain and you have no viable strategy moving forward, but where do these impulses lead? Cutting off your own nose to spite someone else's face seems like miserable and counterproductive politics.
The DSM is going to have to create a new category for "Millennial Adjustment Disorder."
:rolling: :rolling: Awesome..seriously, just had a conversation about this last night.
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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by PuerAzaelis » Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:39 am

Ricky wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:15 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:03 pm
One of my professors told us about a Ojibwe tradition that consisted of bringing an adolescent boy into a tent with a young naked woman (and possibly a clothed elder woman in the background or outside) and they would just have a conversation (I forget about what) to humanize women for the young horny boy.

I'm pretty sure it's a dead tradition, he might have been one of the last people to experience it.

I think we need to bring this back to Canadian culture. :twothumbsup:
They should bring back this old tradition. Damn protestants.
You can get the same/opposite effect going to Mass. The statue of the Virgin, her right leg just barely stepping forward, pressing its outline through her robe ...

There’s nothing as romantic as Catholicism. Consequently, there’s nothing as Catholic as a good horror movie.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by DGA » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:56 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:47 am
The sexual revolution didn't change the inherent patriarchy of society. It was a move in the right direction, but was co-opted by the overarching power structure to become another way to justify abuse of women. I think these left-leaning liberals and Charlie Rose sorts are a product of that false idea that equality means that women want to be sexualized and treated like men think they would want to be treated by women. I think that both right-wing males with their false dichotomy of all woman as either virgins,good wives/whores and the liberal version of "free women" who are lascivious, are both totally unfair and wrong ideas.

And as Ayu said, in Europe, I don't think things are much more enlightened in this regard, if at all. I thought they were before I naively set foot there.

There's a book called "Woman at Point Zero," by an Egyptian feminist writer, which elucidated this point, albeit in a fictional story. The hero finds her experiences in an arranged marriage, prostitution, and with a revolutionary (think Julian Assange) were all invalidating of her basic humanity.

And for what your son can do, to me, it's not putting his head down, quite the opposite. He needs to look around himself, learn to communicate his feelings and respect others. Men don't need to walk on egg shells, just be in touch with reality. It's not hard.
I've been thinking about your post and it seems to me that you've hit upon several important insights. The part I bolded is particularly relevant because there's a clear empathy gap at work, and it moves in two directions. Many straight men experience themselves as being largely ignored and forgotten by capricious women who regard them as uninteresting at best, repulsive and threatening at worst, or alternatively as available to be exploited (who is paying for dinner? who is moving your refrigerator back to where you had it before? who is opening that stupid jar again? who is showing you, again, how to parallel park?)

Consequently, these men (straight men but not all straight men) hear women objecting to being objectified, complimented, and in a word NOTICED for being exactly what they have been made to feel not to be (attractive, interesting, appealing... the opposite of repulsive and threatening), they have a hard time bringing the empathy.

Meanwhile, women who have been made to feel threatened and objectified and just want to be left alone unless they signal otherwise simply have no frame of reference for the mindset that these men experience. So they assume, plausibly, that they are just stupid, or thuggish, or just gross by nature.

And around it goes again.

How to overcome the empathy gap? Well, the bros among us will do well to do something about their sense of insecurity and felt need for recognition from others. I don't have any advice for women in this predicament right now. Why? Well, does now seem like a good time for a white guy to give aggrieved women advice about anything except, if asked, how to move your own damned refrigerator?


PS why can't we just use normal soap? this fruity stuff doesn't work on my armpits

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by DGA » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:23 pm

one more thing about the empathy gap I was trying to describe above:

the insights of trans people are really important to heed in conversations like this. Why? Well, because they are interesting and important in and of themselves. Also, because trans people have some experience of coping with both sets of gender roles and modes of socialization, and just as importantly, with different levels of different kinds of sex hormones. I remember reading some years ago a first-person narrative of a trans man's transition, and his difficulty in adjusting to the effects of testosterone. He was completely disoriented by it as though on a coke binge, overwhelmed by the impulse to screw everything and everyone he encountered (the photocopier...).

I bring this up because cis women have no adequate frame of reference for what testosterone does to one's experience. Cis men have no adequate frame of reference for the cyclical hormonal stew that women have to cope with, either, but the stakes are different. Estrogen is reputed to make you pimply and puffy, which is irritating but not enough to merit a call to the cops. Testosterone is feared to make a male body into a drunk grizzly armed with a brontosaur's boner.

Since we don't make sense to each other, trouble ensues.

This is a Buddhist board. I don't want to argue that empathy is impossible; it's something we should be striving for. But there are challenges and I don't think these should be ignored.

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by justsit » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:20 am

DGA wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:23 pm
one more thing about the empathy gap I was trying to describe above:

the insights of trans people are really important to heed in conversations like this. Why? Well, because they are interesting and important in and of themselves. Also, because trans people have some experience of coping with both sets of gender roles and modes of socialization, and just as importantly, with different levels of different kinds of sex hormones. I remember reading some years ago a first-person narrative of a trans man's transition, and his difficulty in adjusting to the effects of testosterone. He was completely disoriented by it as though on a coke binge, overwhelmed by the impulse to screw everything and everyone he encountered (the photocopier...).

I bring this up because cis women have no adequate frame of reference for what testosterone does to one's experience. Cis men have no adequate frame of reference for the cyclical hormonal stew that women have to cope with, either, but the stakes are different. Estrogen is reputed to make you pimply and puffy, which is irritating but not enough to merit a call to the cops. Testosterone is feared to make a male body into a drunk grizzly armed with a brontosaur's boner.

Since we don't make sense to each other, trouble ensues.

This is a Buddhist board. I don't want to argue that empathy is impossible; it's something we should be striving for. But there are challenges and I don't think these should be ignored.
And cue up the trans guy....
So yeah, testosterone is a whole 'nother thing, a pretty amazing drug. Estrogen has nothing on T for the most part, in terms of sexual drive. Much more immediate, very insistent, very visual. And will not be ignored - masturbation is now on the daily chore list. E made me much more emotionally labile, in addition to puffy, achy, bloated, etc., not nearly as horny.

Since I started transitioning (at age 62), there are some guy behaviors that make sense now that didn't before. And it's easier to see how different frames of reference hamper clear communication.

I agree with most of your previous post, but the whole "guys are insecure" thing is difficult for women to buy. And there was an article you quoted yesterday, where the writer bemoaned men feeling useless and "castrated" (her word), and somehow that was women's fault. IMO the rate of change in society in even just the past 50 years might be a better place to look for a cause. Men used to run pretty much everything in the Western world, white men in particular, and got away with harassing women because they could. Now times are a' changin' - for a large segment of the male population blue collar jobs are gone, many good white collar jobs aren't secure; women working because they have to, etc. - and these are not problems caused by women.

When I was in therapy for gender dysphoria (a required process in order to qualify for surgery), my therapist asked me how I was going to deal with male privilege. I had to admit, I had no idea, never having had the experience of such a thing. Now that I'm "there" so to speak, it still isn't much of an issue for me, as I'm not consistently recognized as male. Still an interesting journey in progress.

I could write a lot more but will stop here. Happy to answer respectful questions.

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by TharpaChodron » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:00 am

DGA wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:56 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:47 am
The sexual revolution didn't change the inherent patriarchy of society. It was a move in the right direction, but was co-opted by the overarching power structure to become another way to justify abuse of women. I think these left-leaning liberals and Charlie Rose sorts are a product of that false idea that equality means that women want to be sexualized and treated like men think they would want to be treated by women. I think that both right-wing males with their false dichotomy of all woman as either virgins,good wives/whores and the liberal version of "free women" who are lascivious, are both totally unfair and wrong ideas.

And as Ayu said, in Europe, I don't think things are much more enlightened in this regard, if at all. I thought they were before I naively set foot there.

There's a book called "Woman at Point Zero," by an Egyptian feminist writer, which elucidated this point, albeit in a fictional story. The hero finds her experiences in an arranged marriage, prostitution, and with a revolutionary (think Julian Assange) were all invalidating of her basic humanity.

And for what your son can do, to me, it's not putting his head down, quite the opposite. He needs to look around himself, learn to communicate his feelings and respect others. Men don't need to walk on egg shells, just be in touch with reality. It's not hard.
I've been thinking about your post and it seems to me that you've hit upon several important insights. The part I bolded is particularly relevant because there's a clear empathy gap at work, and it moves in two directions. Many straight men experience themselves as being largely ignored and forgotten by capricious women who regard them as uninteresting at best, repulsive and threatening at worst, or alternatively as available to be exploited (who is paying for dinner? who is moving your refrigerator back to where you had it before? who is opening that stupid jar again? who is showing you, again, how to parallel park?)

Consequently, these men (straight men but not all straight men) hear women objecting to being objectified, complimented, and in a word NOTICED for being exactly what they have been made to feel not to be (attractive, interesting, appealing... the opposite of repulsive and threatening), they have a hard time bringing the empathy.

Meanwhile, women who have been made to feel threatened and objectified and just want to be left alone unless they signal otherwise simply have no frame of reference for the mindset that these men experience. So they assume, plausibly, that they are just stupid, or thuggish, or just gross by nature.

And around it goes again.

How to overcome the empathy gap? Well, the bros among us will do well to do something about their sense of insecurity and felt need for recognition from others. I don't have any advice for women in this predicament right now. Why? Well, does now seem like a good time for a white guy to give aggrieved women advice about anything except, if asked, how to move your own damned refrigerator?


PS why can't we just use normal soap? this fruity stuff doesn't work on my armpits
I think you're right about an empathy gap. Maybe we could use trans people to help explain both sides like Justsit did?

I can't really relate to other women who expect relationships to be more about an exchange of goods than actual true love/affection. that's always been a foreign concept to me. I'm more the type hanging out with the itinerant flamenco guitarist. I like my freedom!

so, I kind of get how the frustration of an average male trying to negotiate such stuff can turn them bitter. but most people I know seem to have found a way to having companionship in their lives and not acting like utter fools when it comes to relationships.

it seems there's some immaturity and unrealistic expectations on both sides.

And I was being a tad unrealistic and out of touch myself when i said that boys don't have to look down and can just 'be real' now that i think about it. especially for kids these days. the average female or male has dealt with some sort of objectification, whether it be an expectation that they'll pay for dinner or enduring a catcall. I'm about as tired of victims as much as I am of victimization. I get Harvey Weinstein is a creep, but you don't have to sit there and take it. Call him out and produce your own movies. You think you can't? Ask Oprah about that. I'm being silly but it's just where my mind is at right this second.

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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by MiphamFan » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:12 am

I'm pretty sure I have above average testosterone. I gain muscle and strength very easily when I train at a caloric surplus. When I'm in a deficit I still maintain my strength.

I have never felt like a "drunk grizzly" who gropes women without permission.

Men who claim testosterone makes them do stuff like that are making excuses. So are drunks. I never behaved differently from normal when I drank alcohol.

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TharpaChodron
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Re: sexual harrassment & sexual assault in the US

Post by TharpaChodron » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:15 am

justsit wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:20 am
DGA wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:23 pm
one more thing about the empathy gap I was trying to describe above:

the insights of trans people are really important to heed in conversations like this. Why? Well, because they are interesting and important in and of themselves. Also, because trans people have some experience of coping with both sets of gender roles and modes of socialization, and just as importantly, with different levels of different kinds of sex hormones. I remember reading some years ago a first-person narrative of a trans man's transition, and his difficulty in adjusting to the effects of testosterone. He was completely disoriented by it as though on a coke binge, overwhelmed by the impulse to screw everything and everyone he encountered (the photocopier...).

I bring this up because cis women have no adequate frame of reference for what testosterone does to one's experience. Cis men have no adequate frame of reference for the cyclical hormonal stew that women have to cope with, either, but the stakes are different. Estrogen is reputed to make you pimply and puffy, which is irritating but not enough to merit a call to the cops. Testosterone is feared to make a male body into a drunk grizzly armed with a brontosaur's boner.

Since we don't make sense to each other, trouble ensues.

This is a Buddhist board. I don't want to argue that empathy is impossible; it's something we should be striving for. But there are challenges and I don't think these should be ignored.
And cue up the trans guy....
So yeah, testosterone is a whole 'nother thing, a pretty amazing drug. Estrogen has nothing on T for the most part, in terms of sexual drive. Much more immediate, very insistent, very visual. And will not be ignored - masturbation is now on the daily chore list. E made me much more emotionally labile, in addition to puffy, achy, bloated, etc., not nearly as horny.

Since I started transitioning (at age 62), there are some guy behaviors that make sense now that didn't before. And it's easier to see how different frames of reference hamper clear communication.

I agree with most of your previous post, but the whole "guys are insecure" thing is difficult for women to buy. And there was an article you quoted yesterday, where the writer bemoaned men feeling useless and "castrated" (her word), and somehow that was women's fault. IMO the rate of change in society in even just the past 50 years might be a better place to look for a cause. Men used to run pretty much everything in the Western world, white men in particular, and got away with harassing women because they could. Now times are a' changin' - for a large segment of the male population blue collar jobs are gone, many good white collar jobs aren't secure; women working because they have to, etc. - and these are not problems caused by women.

When I was in therapy for gender dysphoria (a required process in order to qualify for surgery), my therapist asked me how I was going to deal with male privilege. I had to admit, I had no idea, never having had the experience of such a thing. Now that I'm "there" so to speak, it still isn't much of an issue for me, as I'm not consistently recognized as male. Still an interesting journey in progress.

I could write a lot more but will stop here. Happy to answer respectful questions.
I don't have a question but I'll just say that I love and applaud your response. Your insight and experience is very much appreciated. I'm pretty sure you can see how privilege works both ways sometimes.

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