Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

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Ricky
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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Ricky » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:18 am


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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by kirtu » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:56 am

Ricky wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:18 am
Ricky -

The debt is mostly a fake concern (although not entirely).

The US is not having trouble finding borrowers.

The increased debt per year is minor in comparison to the federal revenue.

Most of the debt is owed to ourselves and not foreign entities.

Until recently the debt was < the US GMP. Now total debt is just above GNP. Increasing tax on corporations and upper earners alone could eliminate the debt in relative short order (a few years).

Even at the current anemic growth rate the US would eliminate the debt in 10-20 years without a problem if it choose to do so. It doesn't because this is how the world functions (and besides, it could set off a Third Great Depression if it really did that and didn't continue to borrow).

Now it is true that most of the Republicans in Congress claim to be some kind of austerian. But generally they are not getting this from most economists, even their own favorite austerity oriented economists.

Judicious, well-planned growth will solve the problem. However the US doesn't go in for "well-planned" and "judicious" being mostly market fundamentalists.

Kirt
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"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Grigoris » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:50 am

kirtu wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:01 am
Austerity is the path to bankruptcy.

Kirt
Austerity measures are touted as a means to pay off debt, but really they are just a justification to implement monetarist neo-liberal policies (to destroy universal education and medical care, lower wages, reduce pensions, etc...) Austerity measures are a political tool for concentrating capital and not an economic tool for dealing with debt. Greece is a perfect example of this. Spain, Portugal, Ireland, etc...

Decreasing the spending power of the general population leads to a decrease in tax income for the state. This forces the state to raise tax levels thus making products even more inaccessible to the general population, leading to even less sales and less tax income. Etc... In the meantime the debt rises since the state does not have the money necessary to pay the installments. The state is then forced to borrow more money in order to pay the installments which leads to more debt. Ad nauseum.

This has been the Greek situation for the past 6-7 years. There is no light at the end of the austerity measures tunnel.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:58 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:50 am
Austerity measures are touted as a means to pay off debt, but really they are just a justification to implement monetarist neo-liberal policies (to destroy universal education and medical care, lower wages, reduce pensions, etc...) Austerity measures are a political tool for concentrating capital and not an economic tool for dealing with debt. Greece is a perfect example of this. Spain, Portugal, Ireland, etc...

Decreasing the spending power of the general population leads to a decrease in tax income for the state. This forces the state to raise tax levels thus making products even more inaccessible to the general population, leading to even less sales and less tax income. Etc... In the meantime the debt rises since the state does not have the money necessary to pay the installments. The state is then forced to borrow more money in order to pay the installments which leads to more debt. Ad nauseum.
And of course that is when they tell you that they must sell off more state assets, lay off more workers in state owned companies and dismantle another chunk of what remains (if anything still remains, that is) of the welfare state -- plus introduce another batch of super-special privileges for the "investors" and "employers." All of which further impoverishes and imperils the population, further decreases the tax income for the state, and contracts the economy even more -- with the result that the debt rises even more, more austerity measures are implemented, etc.

All the time the state is being cannibalised by the corporate rulers and shakers, and the people become still more desperate, still more utterly fed up with the whole socio-political system (and such worn cliches it keeps touting as "democracy") and thus still more mistrustful and tribal, and, of course, still more unpredictable and prone to violence -- which leads the government to become more and more authoritarian. Ad nauseam.

Many vicious circles here, and all of them ruinous. If nothing breaks the chain, the future is a bizarre, Mad-Max-like neo-feudal ruin of a world with all the ideologies of the medieval feudalism replaced by a cult of selfishness, greed, acquisition -- and raw power.

Now, the question is, who will be the first to break the chain. How will they do it, too. One wonders.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by srivijaya » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:56 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:58 pm
Now, the question is, who will be the first to break the chain. How will they do it, too. One wonders.
Excellent question and we need to see a solution soon.

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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Jeff H » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:29 am

Regarding combating fascists and nazis, think the proper discussion among Buddhists is not whether violence might sometimes be necessary and appropriate, but whether we are able to generate compassion for hate-full people. Being “nice” to everyone is not always appropriate, and ignoring injustice is never appropriate. But bodhichitta excludes no one, ever.
Rongzompa, speaking of bodhisattva behavior, wrote:‘Having love and compassion and virtuous intention, there is no stain’ … is meant literally; if one’s thought is based on love and compassion, and thus one’s intention is virtuous, then even performing fierce actions does not cause the defect (of breaking) one’s vow.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Lindama » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:33 am

the prob is not hateful people per se.... repuganant yes, unlawful at times, yes. .... it get's votes. they don't care..... except for the votes. I don't know how love and compassion works with social engineering which is power driven.... the poor folks trapped in this hatred are not the problem, per se. They are not the ones who will make a diff. We need a wider view....

"...amerikan fascism like all fascism is a joining of corporate and state in opposition to people and democracy.... amerikan fascism does not prefer violence .... it will poison the channels of public information.... money ahead of human beings..." Henry Wallace in 1944 forsaw this ~Thom Hartman

so the title started with China Billionaires and is now about Totalitarianism and Fascism?? Thom is talking about Greece at about 25:00. notice this is from 2015.... not much has changed

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not this morning,
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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by amanitamusc » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:55 am

Jeff H wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:29 am
Regarding combating fascists and nazis, think the proper discussion among Buddhists is not whether violence might sometimes be necessary and appropriate, but whether we are able to generate compassion for hate-full people. Being “nice” to everyone is not always appropriate, and ignoring injustice is never appropriate. But bodhichitta excludes no one, ever.
Rongzompa, speaking of bodhisattva behavior, wrote:‘Having love and compassion and virtuous intention, there is no stain’ … is meant literally; if one’s thought is based on love and compassion, and thus one’s intention is virtuous, then even performing fierce actions does not cause the defect (of breaking) one’s vow.
:good:

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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Wayfarer » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:48 am

Agree with Jeff H, as is often the case. I think the difficult thing is, because such a huge diversity of opinions is now available, there will be takers for every opinion across the spectrum of views. And many of those views will be outlandish, from your P-O-V. I find myself completely at odds with my own nearest and dearest on some issues (not saying which!) So, I'm having to learn to hold my peace. If I was asked, I would have to speak out, but if I'm not asked, I won't tell. I am trying to make something of an inner fortress here. We're all going to have to put up with a lot of this kind of conflict in today's world; better to not jump in with an opinion, tell those around you what you think. (Dear wife has been instrumental in my learning this. :smile: )
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Grigoris
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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Grigoris » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:59 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:27 pm
Greg, I agree with all this. It does not change the fact (from my perspective of course that most people in my own country I have seen calling themselves "Antifa" here are not willing to put themselves between anything, but are often into making performative public statements -very- thinly disguised as tactics or "fighting Nazis".
Making a performative public statement (for self-advertising purposes) can sometimes be enough. If the Nazis consider you a soft enough target they will attack you. Notice I said soft, not important? Nazis tend to rely on attacking soft and unimportant targets initially, in order to scare the harder more important targets into silence.

The neo-Nazis in Greece, for example, overestimated their power (up until this point they kept themselves happy beating up and even killing refugees and slapping the odd Stalinist) and attacked and killed a Greek Anarchist hip-hop artist. Anarchists, not being averse to violence themselves, and the general community took to the streets in a serious way. The center-right government (which until then had a pact with the neo-Nazis and offered all sorts of support to them for their assistance in putting down anti-austerity organisation and activities) was forced to act when the Anarchists started revenge killings and the ruling party saw their voter base slowly shifting towards the neo-Nazis.

So, even performative statements are important. And before judging others about their activities, it would be a good idea to look at what you personally are doing to halt the slow and steady march towards Fascism that America seems to be engaged in, coz when the shit hits the fan it's 50-50 as to whether Trump and his cronies will step in to stop a civil war breaking out.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Ricky
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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Ricky » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:55 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:50 am
kirtu wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:01 am
Austerity is the path to bankruptcy.

Kirt
Austerity measures are touted as a means to pay off debt, but really they are just a justification to implement monetarist neo-liberal policies (to destroy universal education and medical care, lower wages, reduce pensions, etc...) Austerity measures are a political tool for concentrating capital and not an economic tool for dealing with debt. Greece is a perfect example of this. Spain, Portugal, Ireland, etc...

Decreasing the spending power of the general population leads to a decrease in tax income for the state. This forces the state to raise tax levels thus making products even more inaccessible to the general population, leading to even less sales and less tax income. Etc... In the meantime the debt rises since the state does not have the money necessary to pay the installments. The state is then forced to borrow more money in order to pay the installments which leads to more debt. Ad nauseum.

This has been the Greek situation for the past 6-7 years. There is no light at the end of the austerity measures tunnel.
I would like to hear what you and others have to say about Venezuela.


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Grigoris
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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Grigoris » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:04 pm

I fail to see the relevance of the comparison.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:15 pm

Ricky wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:55 pm

I would like to hear what you and others have to say about Venezuela.
Perfect example of a failed, centralized economy.

Market economies are better at providing goods and services, however they are also completely incapable of pricing environmental and social risk without solid, well thought out environmental and social regulation. Right now, for example, the Trump administration is going the wrong way with respect to regulation, and the consequence will be more rapid global warming, more climate instability, more industrial pollution, and losses in the trillions as the oceans continue inundate the coasts, where the majority of humans live and storms grown increasing more intense and damaging.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:10 pm

Ricky wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:55 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:50 am
kirtu wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:01 am
Austerity is the path to bankruptcy.

Kirt
Austerity measures are touted as a means to pay off debt, but really they are just a justification to implement monetarist neo-liberal policies (to destroy universal education and medical care, lower wages, reduce pensions, etc...) Austerity measures are a political tool for concentrating capital and not an economic tool for dealing with debt. Greece is a perfect example of this. Spain, Portugal, Ireland, etc...

Decreasing the spending power of the general population leads to a decrease in tax income for the state. This forces the state to raise tax levels thus making products even more inaccessible to the general population, leading to even less sales and less tax income. Etc... In the meantime the debt rises since the state does not have the money necessary to pay the installments. The state is then forced to borrow more money in order to pay the installments which leads to more debt. Ad nauseum.

This has been the Greek situation for the past 6-7 years. There is no light at the end of the austerity measures tunnel.
I would like to hear what you and others have to say about Venezuela.

One word: petroleum.

By the way: Venezuela is not, and has never been, a socialist state. Socialism = means of production are owned/managed/taken care of by the workers.

Also, brief Youtube videos will rarely help you understand anything. That is not why they are here for.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

Ricky
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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Ricky » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:15 pm

Perfect example of a failed, centralized economy.
:thumbsup:
Market economies are better at providing goods and services, however they are also completely incapable of pricing environmental and social risk without solid, well thought out environmental and social regulation. Right now, for example, the Trump administration is going the wrong way with respect to regulation, and the consequence will be more rapid global warming, more climate instability, more industrial pollution, and losses in the trillions as the oceans continue inundate the coasts, where the majority of humans live and storms grown increasing more intense and damaging.
Regulation is important when it comes to protecting the environment. More incentives could also be given to companies who specialize in renewable energy. Luckily the tax bill will preserve current incentives.

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Malcolm
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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:24 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:10 pm

By the way: Venezuela is not, and has never been, a socialist state.
Sure it is.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:25 pm

Ricky wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:13 pm
Luckily the tax bill will preserve current incentives.
Actually the tax bill is gutting wind and solar incentives.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:27 pm

Ricky wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:13 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:15 pm

Perfect example of a failed, centralized economy.
:thumbsup:
Market economies are better at providing goods and services, however they are also completely incapable of pricing environmental and social risk without solid, well thought out environmental and social regulation. Right now, for example, the Trump administration is going the wrong way with respect to regulation, and the consequence will be more rapid global warming, more climate instability, more industrial pollution, and losses in the trillions as the oceans continue inundate the coasts, where the majority of humans live and storms grown increasing more intense and damaging.
Regulation is important when it comes to protecting the environment. More incentives could also be given to companies who specialize in renewable energy. Luckily the tax bill will preserve current incentives.

There are a lot of other things the market cannot correctly price, like health care. This is why we need Universal Health care, when one digs deeper, one finds there are all kinds of other things that markets do not address without regulation.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:24 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:10 pm

By the way: Venezuela is not, and has never been, a socialist state.
Sure it is.
No Malcolm, it really is not. Genuine social ownership and democratic control of the means of production in Venezuela?

It is a mixture of a typical neoliberal state and what Chomsky aptly calls a "state capitalist economy." No worker-controlled means of production, no worker-controlled government and no democratic control of anything.

It is not even a pseudo-socialist (or socialist in the name only, as were the states of the Soviet bloc) country either. There are private businesses and big corporations there, and they are doing fine.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Malcolm
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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:09 am

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:47 pm

No Malcolm, it really is not. Genuine social ownership and democratic control of the means of production in Venezuela?
Look, the Maduro people claim they are socialists. They, like Chavez, claim that they are preserving surpluses from oil revenue for the people. This is completely consistent with Marxian Socialist ethics.
It is a mixture of a typical neoliberal state and what Chomsky aptly calls a "state capitalist economy." No worker-controlled means of production, no worker-controlled government and no democratic control of anything.
Right, which is typical of the "dictatorship of the proletariat." Recall, Trotsky wanted the world turned into a concentration camp.
There are private businesses and big corporations there, and they are doing fine.
No one is doing fine in Venezuala. Just ask Elias Caprilles.

Anyway, your "Socialism" is a fantasy. It never has happened anywhere, can't happen anywhere (as more than one failed centrally planned economy has demonstrated) and moreover, the so called "means of production," which are a product of Capitalism, are themselves toxic by nature.

Further, Communists were and are just as bloody minded as Fascists, operating out class bias and resentments as opposed to racial/national bias and resentments. The shear number of innocent people murdered by Communists and Fascists in the 20th century alone should make everyone as equally nervous about Marxist Socialism as they are about Fascism. Frankly, no Capitalist country has ever come close to the bloodshed inflicted on the world by Communists and Fascists, not in your wildest dreams.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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