Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

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Grigoris
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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Grigoris » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:00 pm
Sharing is a form of reciprocity, and reciprocity is a form of trade.
No it is not. One can give unconditionally, not expecting anything in return.
Redistribution requires hierarchy. See Polanyi.
No it doesn't. It requires organisation. Organisation does not require hierachy.
Apart from a complete and total social collapse on a global scale, and a similar collapse of population levels, this kind of economic arrangement is utopian fantasizing.
Given that existing political-economic reality sucks, I see no fault in envisioning an alternative. If you are happy painting the bars on your cage gold, well, bully for you.

But now you are speculating again. There is no evidence that what I am suggesting cannot work.

Like I said earlier: I prefer romance to marrying my rapist.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:09 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:06 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:00 pm
Sharing is a form of reciprocity, and reciprocity is a form of trade.
No it is not. One can give unconditionally, not expecting anything in return.
One might, but in reality, people do not work that way. Why? Desire, hatred, and ignorance.
Redistribution requires hierarchy. See Polanyi.
No it doesn't. It requires organisation. Organisation does not require hierachy.
Of course it does.

But now you are speculating again. There is no evidence that what I am suggesting cannot work.
The evidence is desire, hatred, and ignorance. That is why your utopian scheme cannot work.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Grigoris » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:09 pm
The evidence is desire, hatred, and ignorance. That is why your utopian scheme cannot work.
Of course it can, we just need to work on getting enlightened. ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:42 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:35 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:09 pm
The evidence is desire, hatred, and ignorance. That is why your utopian scheme cannot work.
Of course it can, we just need to work on getting enlightened. ;)
Unfortunately, a precious human rebirth requires the store of merit, and very few human beings possess that store; and increasingly, as we move into the Kali Yuga, fewer and fewer humans will have a precious human birth.

From a realistic Buddhist point of view, any socialist utopian vision is basically a fantasy, including the Kingdom of Shambhala, etc., and nothing is more hierarchical than a kingdom. Even Dzogchen Community, which is supposed to be nonhierarchical is anything but.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Dan74 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:00 pm

Thanks, Malcolm, I'm familiar with the book and the widespread endorsement of the message. I think it's quite honest in what it does, but what it does, doesn't go far enough it seems to me.
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:06 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:57 pm
I don't know why Malcolm seems to warm up to Capitalism.
Market economies function better than command economies for the majority of the people in them. They are not perfect, however, which is why they require sensible and humane regulation.

For example, people rail against capitalism because they view it as being the cause of the present environmental crisis. This is really quite false, but it feels good to believe it be so. It's nice to have convenient scapegoats.

In reality, the actual cause of climate change is simply human ignorance, and in many cases, criminal indifference. And this applies universally, it is not a problem which can be isolated to this or that country, or this or that political economy. Climate change is the result of countless human decisions made since the 18th century, and especially after the adoption of concentrated hydrocarbons in the 19th century (coal, then oil) as sources for fuel and fertilizers leading to an explosion in human populations.

Unfortunately in the United States, the science of the matter has, absurdly, become a matter of ideological debate, just as environmentalism was ideologically discredited in the USSR in the 1930's, with its obvious effects on the environment in communist countries such as the USSR and elsewhere.

Many of the excesses of capitalism can be solved, among other measures, by pricing the cost of undeveloped capital in its raw form, as suggest in Natural Capitalism (Hawken, Lovins, and Lovins, 1999). The fundamental assumptions of Natural Capitalism are as follows:
  • The limiting factor to future economic development is the availability and functionality of natural capital, in particular, life-supporting services that have no substitutes and currently have no market value.
  • Misconceived or badly designed business systems, population growth, and wasteful patterns of consumption are the primary causes of the loss of natural capital, and all three must be addressed to achieve a sustainable economy.
  • Future economic progress can best take place in democratic, market-based systems of production and distribution in which all forms of capital are fully valued, including human, manufactured, financial, and natural capital.
  • One of the keys to the most beneficial employment of people, money, and the environment is radical increases in resource productivity.
  • Human welfare is best served by improving the quality and flow of desired services delivered, rather than by merely increasing the total dollar flow. Economic and environmental sustainability depends on redressing global inequities of income and material well-being.

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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Grigoris » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:42 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:35 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:09 pm
The evidence is desire, hatred, and ignorance. That is why your utopian scheme cannot work.
Of course it can, we just need to work on getting enlightened. ;)
Unfortunately, a precious human rebirth requires the store of merit, and very few human beings possess that store; and increasingly, as we move into the Kali Yuga, fewer and fewer humans will have a precious human birth.

From a realistic Buddhist point of view, any socialist utopian vision is basically a fantasy, including the Kingdom of Shambhala, etc., and nothing is more hierarchical than a kingdom. Even Dzogchen Community, which is supposed to be nonhierarchical is anything but.
On the basis of that view we shoul;d just let people die of poverty, not worry about universal health care or education, not bother with trying to slow or halt global warming, etc... We should just dig a hole and [place our miserable existence in it waiting to die an inevitably slow and horrible death. Sounds like Hindu fatalism to me.

But like I said earlier: that is a sweet scenario for a white middle class dude living in the wealthiest and most powerful country in the West (since they will not have to live it), but if you ask a 16 year old Palestinian rights activists, they may have a different view.

Image
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:00 pm
Thanks, Malcolm, I'm familiar with the book and the widespread endorsement of the message. I think it's quite honest in what it does, but what it does, doesn't go far enough it seems to me.
Any further and we start talking about command economies.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:26 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:12 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:42 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:35 pm
Of course it can, we just need to work on getting enlightened. ;)
Unfortunately, a precious human rebirth requires the store of merit, and very few human beings possess that store; and increasingly, as we move into the Kali Yuga, fewer and fewer humans will have a precious human birth.

From a realistic Buddhist point of view, any socialist utopian vision is basically a fantasy, including the Kingdom of Shambhala, etc., and nothing is more hierarchical than a kingdom. Even Dzogchen Community, which is supposed to be nonhierarchical is anything but.
On the basis of that view we shoul;d just let people die of poverty, not worry about universal health care or education, not bother with trying to slow or halt global warming, etc... We should just dig a hole and [place our miserable existence in it waiting to die an inevitably slow and horrible death. Sounds like Hindu fatalism to me.
No, you are painting things in unnecessary extremes (as usual).

We do not have a universal world government, so millions in Africa are still going to die of starvation while war lords get rich; people will die of poverty around the world; the United States is still going to foolishly refuse to honor its obligation to the Paris Accord, toss millions off of health care, reverse decades of environmental regulations, and so on. Then, the Democrats will once again be in power, and attempt to repair the damage done by the Trump administration. And people will still engage in the afflictive politics of resentment which leads only to radicalism and violence.

But I don't see how having a violent revolution is going to make anything better. And indeed you are forgetting the words of the Buddha who pointed out that all inequalities we see in samsara are a result of karma. We cannot change ripened karma. It just isn't possible.

We cannot fix samsara, but we can try to improve what we can. I have no confidence at all in utopianism of any kind. My observation is that liberal democracies and market economies in general make people's lives better and not worse. But it is all a work in progress and perfection will never be achieved.
But like I said earlier: that is a sweet scenario for a white middle class dude living in the wealthiest and most powerful country in the West (since they will not have to live it), but if you ask a 16 year old Palestinian rights activists, they may have a different view.
Yes, but ignorant of karma and its ripening, they will simply create more negative karma for themselves by fighting the Israelis and together they and the Israelis will both wind up in hell.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by odysseus » Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:27 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:12 pm
for a white middle class dude living in the wealthiest and most powerful country in the West
What country is that? Please enlighten me. I will go there but it sounds too good to be true!

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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by MiphamFan » Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:42 am

Marx might have recommended revolutions in 1850. By 1871, he advised the Paris Commune not to do it and try to build a Republic together with everyone else.

Revolutions ultimately are not the main point of communism, it's fundamentally about material relations, economics. Unfortunately, most people just care about the politics and ignore the economics -- present day Marxists even take neoliberal theories of value rather than the labour theory of value. They don't realise that is the entire basis of Marxism -- production of goods based on profit results in more and more machinery, technology (constant capital), which reduces the need for human labour (variable capital) until labour is minimal/zero.

Now, whether this is true or not is a different matter, but really, it is not very different from what J S Mill said, and the dreams of a lot of techno-utopians. Techno-utopians are already kind of implementing "lite" communism with stuff like the sharing economy, open source software etc. With open source software, one programmer can write a piece of code that thousands after him can build on and use for free, that's pretty much constant capital.

I don't think utilitarian/marginal economics has much to counter this. They merely conflate value and price. I find the liberal idea that profits are the "wages of abstinence" milquetoast and retarded. The wages of abstinence are the wages of the ascetic, not of the capitalist. There certainly is a risk component to it, but then there are plenty of risk-taking entrepreneurs who end up with nothing.

I think the biggest criticism of communism (and really, most other forms of political economy which emerged in the industrial age) is not considering the inputs of nature, and only looking at mankind's internal relations.

For example, w.r.t to the labour theory of value, Ricardo discovered this major oversight near the end of his life. He carried out a correspondence with Malthus in which Malthus challenged him on stuff like whether 50 oak trees costing 20 GBP each contained as much labour as a 1000 GBP block of stone. He tried to address some of the issues in the third edition of his Principles, but couldn't fully resolve them. He went on a different thread, talking about the "labour profile" of production, which I think his later successors (including the Ricardian Socialists, which Marx certainly learned from, and J S Mill) took up, but I think (my own opinion) all of them pretty much ignored nature's inputs in value.

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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:28 am

Hence Natural Capitalism + biocentricity.
MiphamFan wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:42 am
Marx might have recommended revolutions in 1850. By 1871, he advised the Paris Commune not to do it and try to build a Republic together with everyone else.

Revolutions ultimately are not the main point of communism, it's fundamentally about material relations, economics. Unfortunately, most people just care about the politics and ignore the economics -- present day Marxists even take neoliberal theories of value rather than the labour theory of value. They don't realise that is the entire basis of Marxism -- production of goods based on profit results in more and more machinery, technology (constant capital), which reduces the need for human labour (variable capital) until labour is minimal/zero.

Now, whether this is true or not is a different matter, but really, it is not very different from what J S Mill said, and the dreams of a lot of techno-utopians. Techno-utopians are already kind of implementing "lite" communism with stuff like the sharing economy, open source software etc. With open source software, one programmer can write a piece of code that thousands after him can build on and use for free, that's pretty much constant capital.

I don't think utilitarian/marginal economics has much to counter this. They merely conflate value and price. I find the liberal idea that profits are the "wages of abstinence" milquetoast and retarded. The wages of abstinence are the wages of the ascetic, not of the capitalist. There certainly is a risk component to it, but then there are plenty of risk-taking entrepreneurs who end up with nothing.

I think the biggest criticism of communism (and really, most other forms of political economy which emerged in the industrial age) is not considering the inputs of nature, and only looking at mankind's internal relations.

For example, w.r.t to the labour theory of value, Ricardo discovered this major oversight near the end of his life. He carried out a correspondence with Malthus in which Malthus challenged him on stuff like whether 50 oak trees costing 20 GBP each contained as much labour as a 1000 GBP block of stone. He tried to address some of the issues in the third edition of his Principles, but couldn't fully resolve them. He went on a different thread, talking about the "labour profile" of production, which I think his later successors (including the Ricardian Socialists, which Marx certainly learned from, and J S Mill) took up, but I think (my own opinion) all of them pretty much ignored nature's inputs in value.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Grigoris » Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:59 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:26 pm
But I don't see how having a violent revolution is going to make anything better.
Oh look, another straw man.
And indeed you are forgetting the words of the Buddha who pointed out that all inequalities we see in samsara are a result of karma. We cannot change ripened karma. It just isn't possible.
Hindu fatalism. HELLO!!! We can change our karma so that the effects of past karma are reduced or nullified. That is what the Buddha taught, that is the idea that put him at odds with Hinduism.
We cannot fix samsara, but we can try to improve what we can.
Indeed. But "trying to improve" is not tantamount to choosing between two equally flawed options. Luckily humans possess imagination and the capacity for innovation.
I have no confidence at all in utopianism of any kind. My observation is that liberal democracies and market economies in general make people's lives better and not worse. But it is all a work in progress and perfection will never be achieved.
You still fail to understand that your life being better is predicated on other's lives being worse.
Yes, but ignorant of karma and its ripening, they will simply create more negative karma for themselves by fighting the Israelis and together they and the Israelis will both wind up in hell.
Yes well, it is easy to accept things, when things are really good. So instead of trying to share what you have, it is easier to say to those less fortunate than you: It's your karma, suck it up.

White privilege, much?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Brunelleschi » Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:13 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:12 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:42 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:35 pm
Of course it can, we just need to work on getting enlightened. ;)
Unfortunately, a precious human rebirth requires the store of merit, and very few human beings possess that store; and increasingly, as we move into the Kali Yuga, fewer and fewer humans will have a precious human birth.

From a realistic Buddhist point of view, any socialist utopian vision is basically a fantasy, including the Kingdom of Shambhala, etc., and nothing is more hierarchical than a kingdom. Even Dzogchen Community, which is supposed to be nonhierarchical is anything but.
On the basis of that view we shoul;d just let people die of poverty, not worry about universal health care or education, not bother with trying to slow or halt global warming, etc... We should just dig a hole and [place our miserable existence in it waiting to die an inevitably slow and horrible death. Sounds like Hindu fatalism to me.

But like I said earlier: that is a sweet scenario for a white middle class dude living in the wealthiest and most powerful country in the West (since they will not have to live it), but if you ask a 16 year old Palestinian rights activists, they may have a different view.
I have to say I agree with Malcolm's point. All utopian visions are dangerous. In the case of a socialist utopia from a Buddhist pov it is of course based on faulty premises.

What does the Palestinian cause has to do with avoiding dangerous utopian visions? You seem to be saying that warning about the dangers of utopian visions equal some sort of nihilism? I don't think this is the case.

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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Grigoris » Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:45 pm

Brunelleschi wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:13 pm
All utopian visions are dangerous.
Why?
In the case of a socialist utopia from a Buddhist pov it is of course based on faulty premises.
Whereas capitalism is based on valid premises??? Capitalist ideology is not utopian???
You seem to be saying that warning about the dangers of utopian visions equal some sort of nihilism?
No, I am objecting to a fatalistic view of karma, ie I am agreeing with the Buddha's view of karma.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Brunelleschi » Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:48 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:45 pm
Brunelleschi wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:13 pm
All utopian visions are dangerous.
Why?
Well my POV is that in order to work towards a utopian society the state must step in and assert control. This is true even if we want equal opportunities (say something like Rawls' veil of ignorance) or equal outcomes. This would give the state too much power which is problematic. Some risk is the price for personal freedom I'd say. Otherwise we end up with some sort of technocratic society á la B.F. Skinner (see his book Beyond Freedom and Dignity).

It's also a problem when people get too carried away in wanting to correct past errors. I.e. they want some sort of "cosmic justice". I think this is extremely dangerous. There's some interesting writings about this among Islamic scholars. They're debating whether 'peace' or 'justice' ought to come first. Those that say 'peace' must come first argue that: (1) there will never be complete justice; (2) humans arent' capable of judging this anyway - only God. I think my viewpoints is fairly similar. There will never be 100% justice or fairness in Samsara.
In the case of a socialist utopia from a Buddhist pov it is of course based on faulty premises.
Whereas capitalism is based on valid premises??? Capitalist ideology is not utopian???
I'm not some Neoliberal or Randian (Objectivist). I agree with a lot of writings of say Marcuse of Gramsci - but generally I think liberal democracy is the better system. I'd say it's positive to work towards a society that is more egalitarian and with less focus on consumerism. I would say it's preferable to work within the system though. :shrug:
You seem to be saying that warning about the dangers of utopian visions equal some sort of nihilism?
No, I am objecting to a fatalistic view of karma, ie I am agreeing with the Buddha's view of karma.
Right. I don't have a fatalistic view of karma. That's all I can say. :smile:

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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:12 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:59 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:26 pm
And indeed you are forgetting the words of the Buddha who pointed out that all inequalities we see in samsara are a result of karma. We cannot change ripened karma. It just isn't possible.
We can change our karma so that the effects of past karma are reduced or nullified. That is what the Buddha taught, that is the idea that put him at odds with Hinduism.
No, actually, we cannot changed ripened karma at all, such as where we were born, etc. We can prevent unripened karma from ripening, but that is about it. And since we are continually creating new karma all the time, well...for most sentient beings it amounts to bailing water out of a boat that has already sunk.

We cannot fix samsara, but we can try to improve what we can.
Indeed. But "trying to improve" is not tantamount to choosing between two equally flawed options. Luckily humans possess imagination and the capacity for innovation.
I don't think the two options are equally flawed, I think one is far more flawed than the other.

I have no confidence at all in utopianism of any kind. My observation is that liberal democracies and market economies in general make people's lives better and not worse. But it is all a work in progress and perfection will never be achieved.
You still fail to understand that your life being better is predicated on other's lives being worse.
So you claim, but I do not accept that this is factual.

Yes, but ignorant of karma and its ripening, they will simply create more negative karma for themselves by fighting the Israelis and together they and the Israelis will both wind up in hell.
Yes well, it is easy to accept things, when things are really good. So instead of trying to share what you have, it is easier to say to those less fortunate than you: It's your karma, suck it up.
Who says I am against the USA sharing what it has? The US pays out far more money in aid than any other country in the world. I personally would prefer it if most of our military budget (1 trillion per year) went to improving conditions in the developing nations and so on. I would prefer it if that is what western nations in general chose to do with their military budgets. Someday, that could happen, right now, there is no international will for it. But our leaders, all of them, as well all sentient beings, including you and I, are driven by the three poisons. Thus, don't t hold your breath waiting for some socialist or anarchist messiah to come along an usher in a new age of global sharing and caring —— it is not going to happen.

In the meantime, I think that market solutions have brought more wealth and improved standards of living to more people around the world than ever before, and I think the economic facts of the world economy bear this out. Why do you think there is a populist backlash in the US where an aging white minority has convinced themselves that the global market, responsible for their standard of living, is denying them jobs because non-white people around the world are becoming more and more wealthy every year?

The main problem with internal market economy is that it is not properly regulated in terms of environmental costs, pollution, etc.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Grigoris » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:12 pm
No, actually, we cannot changed ripened karma at all, such as where we were born, etc. We can prevent unripened karma from ripening, but that is about it. And since we are continually creating new karma all the time, well...for most sentient beings it amounts to bailing water out of a boat that has already sunk.
You are just being intentionally obtuse. I may be born into certain circumstances, but I can act in a manner that will take me out of the circumstances, or at least give me a better start in the next lifetime. There is nothing radical about that idea.
So you claim, but I do not accept that this is factual.
You do not WANT to accept it as factual.
Thus, don't t hold your breath waiting for some socialist or anarchist messiah to come along an usher in a new age of global sharing and caring —— it is not going to happen.
I am not an authoritarian, so I am not waiting on somebody to do something. I just do the best I can. I learned a long time ago that I (by myself) cannot change the world, but if I can help one or two people that is much better than sitting idly by twiddling my thumbs waiting for Armageddon (and making excuses for it's impending arrival).
The main problem with internal market economy is that it is not properly regulated in terms of environmental costs, pollution, etc.
No, the main problem is wealth inequity. When somebody is poor, desperate and ignorant you can even make them crap in the water that they need to drink. If people didn't need to dig coal to survive, then we wouldn't mine coal.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:03 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:29 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:12 pm
No, actually, we cannot changed ripened karma at all, such as where we were born, etc. We can prevent unripened karma from ripening, but that is about it. And since we are continually creating new karma all the time, well...for most sentient beings it amounts to bailing water out of a boat that has already sunk.
You are just being intentionally obtuse. I may be born into certain circumstances, but I can act in a manner that will take me out of the circumstances, or at least give me a better start in the next lifetime. There is nothing radical about that idea.
Sure, but inequality is still a result of karma. The Buddha taught this very clearly.

So you claim, but I do not accept that this is factual.
You do not WANT to accept it as factual.
It is not a question of want or not want, it is a question of evidence.

Thus, don't t hold your breath waiting for some socialist or anarchist messiah to come along an usher in a new age of global sharing and caring
—— it is not going to happen.
I am not an authoritarian, so I am not waiting on somebody to do something. I just di the best I can. I learned a long time ago that I (by myself) cannot change the world, but if I can help one or two people that is much better than sitting idly by twiddling my thumbs waiting for Armageddon (and making excuses for it's impending arrival).
Glad you are doing your best to improve the world. So am I.

The main problem with internal market economy is that it is not properly regulated in terms of environmental costs, pollution, etc.
No, the main problem is wealth inequity.
Right, so you are an advocate of redistribution. That requires a hierarchy and force, something to which you are also opposed. However, even if you have redistributed all the world's wealth equally, inequity will just pop right back up again with a few days. It is in the afflictive nature of human beings to seek to make profits, and of sentient beings in general, to try to accumulate wealth (hence the hoarding behavior of rodents, crows, and so on). The only way out of this is out -- i.e., becoming a total renunciate, like the Buddha.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Grigoris » Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:03 pm
Right, so you are an advocate of redistribution. That requires a hierarchy and force, something to which you are also opposed.
It does not require hierarchy, but it may require force.
It is in the afflictive nature of human beings to seek to make profits, and of sentient beings in general, to try to accumulate wealth (hence the hoarding behavior of rodents, crows, and so on). The only way out of this is out -- i.e., becoming a total renunciate, like the Buddha.
Yes, it is in our afflictive nature to be greedy, violent and nasty prats. When our society is predicated on those ideals it makes it that much easier. But it is not necessary. I recommend you read up on Australian Aboriginal societies to get a picture as to what your world can look like.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Brunelleschi
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Re: Right Wing and Left Wing Totalitairianism and Fascism

Post by Brunelleschi » Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:13 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:29 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:03 pm
Right, so you are an advocate of redistribution. That requires a hierarchy and force, something to which you are also opposed.
It does not require hierarchy, but it may require force.
I actually think this would be justified given the extreme (to the point of being farcical) accumulation of wealth in the hands of a few. However that would require: (1) fair redistribution after wealth is confiscated; (2) minimal loss of human life.

Now, these two are very hard to fulfill - which is why I'm skeptical of the idea. Still, I don't consider it unjustified or an immoral line of reasoning . :shrug:

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