Former Pentagon UFO official: 'We may not be alone'

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TharpaChodron
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Re: Former Pentagon UFO official: 'We may not be alone'

Post by TharpaChodron » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:00 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:23 pm
Vasana wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:46 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:06 am
I also find Stephen Hawkings' warnings about evil aliens to be a bit absurd, btw.
Agreed. I suppose all of the blockbusters depicting the alien-apocalypse really left a mark on him.
But are you really so sure of that? Think about it. There are in general two classes of beings: 1) Sentient beings, 2) Buddhas.

As for sentient beings, they are deluded, and are swimming in afflictions. Animals in general are stupid and afraid. There's always another bigger animal waiting to kill the smaller animal. At least in the wild. And if they're not in the wild, they're domesticated by the smartest animal around, the human. Who also kills animals. And for that matter, themselves, other humans. Yeah we humans do a lot of good, but we also do a whole lot of bad.

If there's intelligent aliens out there, they are either sentient beings or Buddhas. According to the Dzogchen tantras, there are 13 world systems (planets?) in this universe where the Dzogchen teachings flourish. Does that mean all inhabitants on these planets are realized beings or practitioners?

And while 13 world systems may sound amazing - and of course it is amazing that the Dharma flourishes elsewhere too - when you consider how many planets there are in a galaxy on average, and then consider how many galaxies there are in the visible universe, 13 is not a large number at all.

So, if there's intelligent alien life out there, chances are it's sentient. And if it has the technology needed to travel to our solar system, then it's much more technologically advanced than us. If they then are just as afflicted as we are, or more, that's bad news.

Think about it: Why should aliens somehow be super friendly and intelligent? Why can't there be a massive army of alien spaceships out there led by a galactic parallel to the German SS? "We need Lebensraum. We must cleanse planet XzblorQ of its inferior life forms."

Sounds silly? Maybe. But sentient beings are sentient beings. Just because you have technology does not mean you're somehow more peaceful. We better hope that whatever intelligent lifeforms we come across in the future if we do so, are peaceful. But if they are peaceful and technologically inferior, it is very likely that it is we who will end up exploiting them.
Call me an optimist, naive etc but I would think since they are more intelligent and advanced, that they have more wisdom and compassion, and less wisdom obscurations. Even the Germans of 2017 are vastly wiser I'd say than in 1939.
Just think of that level of growth on a scale of years and years.

Anyways, I think Vasana and I have been drinking the same tea, it seems. :D

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Re: Former Pentagon UFO official: 'We may not be alone'

Post by Vasana » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:09 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:23 pm
Vasana wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:46 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:06 am
I also find Stephen Hawkings' warnings about evil aliens to be a bit absurd, btw.
Agreed. I suppose all of the blockbusters depicting the alien-apocalypse really left a mark on him.
But are you really so sure of that? Think about it. There are in general two classes of beings: 1) Sentient beings, 2) Buddhas.

As for sentient beings, they are deluded, and are swimming in afflictions. Animals in general are stupid and afraid. There's always another bigger animal waiting to kill the smaller animal. At least in the wild. And if they're not in the wild, they're domesticated by the smartest animal around, the human. Who also kills animals. And for that matter, themselves, other humans. Yeah we humans do a lot of good, but we also do a whole lot of bad.

If there's intelligent aliens out there, they are either sentient beings or Buddhas. According to the Dzogchen tantras, there are 13 world systems (planets?) in this universe where the Dzogchen teachings flourish. Does that mean all inhabitants on these planets are realized beings or practitioners?

And while 13 world systems may sound amazing - and of course it is amazing that the Dharma flourishes elsewhere too - when you consider how many planets there are in a galaxy on average, and then consider how many galaxies there are in the visible universe, 13 is not a large number at all.

So, if there's intelligent alien life out there, chances are it's sentient. And if it has the technology needed to travel to our solar system, then it's much more technologically advanced than us. If they then are just as afflicted as we are, or more, that's bad news.
Not necessarily bad news. I expect there to be both benevolent and malevolent races of beings just as those found in the pantheon of the 8 classes of Gods and demons can be benevolent or malevolent /helpful or harmful.

As for the goodies...What if they are less afflicted than we are or have gone through the similar global process we are going through at the moment? (i.e, convergence of ecological and social crisis' and the ensuring inevitable birth (or c-section) to bring about planetary cooperation for our survival and the return to a relative equilibrium of the earth's elements etc)
Norwegian wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:23 pm
Think about it: Why should aliens somehow be super friendly and intelligent? Why can't there be a massive army of alien spaceships out there led by a galactic parallel to the German SS? "We need Lebensraum. We must cleanse planet XzblorQ of its inferior life forms."

Sounds silly? Maybe. But sentient beings are sentient beings. Just because you have technology does not mean you're somehow more peaceful. We better hope that whatever intelligent lifeforms we come across in the future if we do so, are peaceful. But if they are peaceful and technologically inferior, it is very likely that it is we who will end up exploiting them.
It doesn't sound silly to me. Like I said, there will be peaceful and not so peaceful advanced civilizations 'out there'...Just to complicate things further, I actually think the concept of 'out there' might not be the full picture either, just as the 8 classes or beings from 6 realms operate under our noses and interact with this world and it's inhabitants through their own karmic vision of the shared environment. (Recall the river of nectar for devas or pus for pretas analogy). Just as there are beings in the higher realms that can see what's going on in the lower realms, I expect there to be advanced beings who are equivalent to those in the god realms having transcended the need for regular sustenance but may still be more dharmically or spiritually inclined just as there are some 'dharma loving gods'. I also expect there to be beings in the equivalent of our human realm that have successfully figured out space travel yet aren't human by our regular definition. This is where the 'bad' aliens would likely be found just as the alien invasion in Avatar was by us humans!

People have a hard time believing in the possibility of these things but won't blink an eye at the thought of hell beings, pretas, devas, Bodhisattvas,pure lands etc.

Going back to your original point, I agree that in general there are just two classes of beings: 1) Sentient beings, 2) Buddhas. Those driven by sems and those with the pristine jhanakaya (and the Bodhisattvas on the way) . My point here was that just as there are gods and demons who interfere and help with the world (according to Buddhism and most religious or folk beliefs) , these hypothetical alienzZZz might also fall into either of those categories.
Last edited by Vasana on Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Former Pentagon UFO official: 'We may not be alone'

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:11 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:00 pm
Even the Germans of 2017 are vastly wiser I'd say than in 1939.

Maybe, but are they wiser than the Germans of, say, the 1800s? That Schopenhauer was pretty sharp. :smile:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Former Pentagon UFO official: 'We may not be alone'

Post by Vasana » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:18 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:00 pm
Call me an optimist, naive etc but I would think since they are more intelligent and advanced, that they have more wisdom and compassion, and less wisdom obscurations. Even the Germans of 2017 are vastly wiser I'd say than in 1939.
Just think of that level of growth on a scale of years and years.
Exactly, I'm open to there being both. After all, the Force has both Jedis and the Sith :jedi:
TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:00 pm
Anyways, I think Vasana and I have been drinking the same tea, it seems. :D
Most probably :smile:
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Former Pentagon UFO official: 'We may not be alone'

Post by Vasana » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:11 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:52 pm
Vasana wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:40 pm
As for Simon's above observation, maybe the thread should be moved to the lounge where people are free to speak about ufos and the English Premier league freely.

Vasana, are you suggesting that gushing over Pep Guardiola's genius in some way will aid in reducing Dukkha?
How does that work then?


Only just saw this - It's anyone's guess.

n'aw I was just tounge in cheek suggesting that if the thread is in lounge then we can all willfully ignore dukkha and focus on the beautiful sport or our other favoured distractions since that's what being a good dharma practioner in any lounge is about, right? :tongue:

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Re: Former Pentagon UFO official: 'We may not be alone'

Post by Simon E. » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:00 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:52 pm
Vasana wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:40 pm
As for Simon's above observation, maybe the thread should be moved to the lounge where people are free to speak about ufos and the English Premier league freely.

Vasana, are you suggesting that gushing over Pep Guardiola's genius in some way will aid in reducing Dukkha?
How does that work then?
Pep's genius is very likely to give rise to dukkha sooner or later. We can choose to imbue particular activities with significance...football, ufology whatever. In the end, it all passes.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: Former Pentagon UFO official: 'We may not be alone'

Post by odysseus » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:29 am

Simon E. wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:00 am

Pep's genius is very likely to give rise to dukkha sooner or later.
It's the other way around, because a thrilling soccer match is entertaining and brings joy. :D

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Re: Former Pentagon UFO official: 'We may not be alone'

Post by Simon E. » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:42 am

All mundane joy becomes dukkha. Or as a current teacher puts it, 'all emotions are pain' ..given time.
Which does not mean that we should not enjoy it while it lasts.
But we need to have realistic expectations.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: Former Pentagon UFO official: 'We may not be alone'

Post by dzogchungpa » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:54 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:42 am
All mundane joy becomes dukkha. Or as a current teacher puts it, 'all emotions are pain' ..given time.
Which does not mean that we should not enjoy it while it lasts.
But we need to have realistic expectations.


First-class Simonsplaining. :thumbsup:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Former Pentagon UFO official: 'We may not be alone'

Post by Dan74 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:00 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:00 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:23 pm
Vasana wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:46 pm


Agreed. I suppose all of the blockbusters depicting the alien-apocalypse really left a mark on him.
But are you really so sure of that? Think about it. There are in general two classes of beings: 1) Sentient beings, 2) Buddhas.

As for sentient beings, they are deluded, and are swimming in afflictions. Animals in general are stupid and afraid. There's always another bigger animal waiting to kill the smaller animal. At least in the wild. And if they're not in the wild, they're domesticated by the smartest animal around, the human. Who also kills animals. And for that matter, themselves, other humans. Yeah we humans do a lot of good, but we also do a whole lot of bad.

If there's intelligent aliens out there, they are either sentient beings or Buddhas. According to the Dzogchen tantras, there are 13 world systems (planets?) in this universe where the Dzogchen teachings flourish. Does that mean all inhabitants on these planets are realized beings or practitioners?

And while 13 world systems may sound amazing - and of course it is amazing that the Dharma flourishes elsewhere too - when you consider how many planets there are in a galaxy on average, and then consider how many galaxies there are in the visible universe, 13 is not a large number at all.

So, if there's intelligent alien life out there, chances are it's sentient. And if it has the technology needed to travel to our solar system, then it's much more technologically advanced than us. If they then are just as afflicted as we are, or more, that's bad news.

Think about it: Why should aliens somehow be super friendly and intelligent? Why can't there be a massive army of alien spaceships out there led by a galactic parallel to the German SS? "We need Lebensraum. We must cleanse planet XzblorQ of its inferior life forms."

Sounds silly? Maybe. But sentient beings are sentient beings. Just because you have technology does not mean you're somehow more peaceful. We better hope that whatever intelligent lifeforms we come across in the future if we do so, are peaceful. But if they are peaceful and technologically inferior, it is very likely that it is we who will end up exploiting them.
Call me an optimist, naive etc but I would think since they are more intelligent and advanced, that they have more wisdom and compassion, and less wisdom obscurations. Even the Germans of 2017 are vastly wiser I'd say than in 1939.
Just think of that level of growth on a scale of years and years.

Anyways, I think Vasana and I have been drinking the same tea, it seems. :D
Were the Germans of 1939 wiser than the Germans of 1812 (Beethoven meets Goethe)? I don't know. I don't think there is conclusive evidence that we really learn from history, or at least that it sticks. Look at our history. 3000 years and we make the same mistakes over and over...

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Re: Former Pentagon UFO official: 'We may not be alone'

Post by Malcolm » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:21 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:00 pm

Were the Germans of 1939 wiser than the Germans of 1812 (Beethoven meets Goethe)? I don't know. I don't think there is conclusive evidence that we really learn from history, or at least that it sticks. Look at our history. 3000 years and we make the same mistakes over and over...
Evidence shows that people really only have at best a two generation memory. We only live 80 years or so. Without books, very little knowledge gets transferred from one generation to another, and what manages to get transferred is easily lost when an oral culture faces crisis.
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-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

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Re: Former Pentagon UFO official: 'We may not be alone'

Post by Karma Dorje » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:37 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:00 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:52 pm
Vasana wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:40 pm
As for Simon's above observation, maybe the thread should be moved to the lounge where people are free to speak about ufos and the English Premier league freely.

Vasana, are you suggesting that gushing over Pep Guardiola's genius in some way will aid in reducing Dukkha?
How does that work then?
Pep's genius is very likely to give rise to dukkha sooner or later. We can choose to imbue particular activities with significance...football, ufology whatever. In the end, it all passes.
You can draw a direct line between Pep's genius and Mourinho's duhkha... and my schadenfreude. And I'm a neutral.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
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Re: Former Pentagon UFO official: 'We may not be alone'

Post by Karma Dorje » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:40 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:36 am
Delve back through your thicket and you will find that what I actually said is that I didn't see how it would affect MY practice.
The 'fruition' of that practice is to abide in Original Mind beyond all arising phenomena, the known and the speculative.

If your practice is inspired by the idea of future contact with little green men then I rejoice for you.
And I will leave that there.
Thank you.
I'm still trying to figure out how the money spent by the government of one of your former colonies on this is relevant to YOUR practice. Anyway, I am all for prapanca if there is football involved somehow.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Re: Former Pentagon UFO official: 'We may not be alone'

Post by TharpaChodron » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:44 am

Dan74 wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:00 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:00 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:23 pm

But are you really so sure of that? Think about it. There are in general two classes of beings: 1) Sentient beings, 2) Buddhas.

As for sentient beings, they are deluded, and are swimming in afflictions. Animals in general are stupid and afraid. There's always another bigger animal waiting to kill the smaller animal. At least in the wild. And if they're not in the wild, they're domesticated by the smartest animal around, the human. Who also kills animals. And for that matter, themselves, other humans. Yeah we humans do a lot of good, but we also do a whole lot of bad.

If there's intelligent aliens out there, they are either sentient beings or Buddhas. According to the Dzogchen tantras, there are 13 world systems (planets?) in this universe where the Dzogchen teachings flourish. Does that mean all inhabitants on these planets are realized beings or practitioners?

And while 13 world systems may sound amazing - and of course it is amazing that the Dharma flourishes elsewhere too - when you consider how many planets there are in a galaxy on average, and then consider how many galaxies there are in the visible universe, 13 is not a large number at all.

So, if there's intelligent alien life out there, chances are it's sentient. And if it has the technology needed to travel to our solar system, then it's much more technologically advanced than us. If they then are just as afflicted as we are, or more, that's bad news.

Think about it: Why should aliens somehow be super friendly and intelligent? Why can't there be a massive army of alien spaceships out there led by a galactic parallel to the German SS? "We need Lebensraum. We must cleanse planet XzblorQ of its inferior life forms."

Sounds silly? Maybe. But sentient beings are sentient beings. Just because you have technology does not mean you're somehow more peaceful. We better hope that whatever intelligent lifeforms we come across in the future if we do so, are peaceful. But if they are peaceful and technologically inferior, it is very likely that it is we who will end up exploiting them.
Call me an optimist, naive etc but I would think since they are more intelligent and advanced, that they have more wisdom and compassion, and less wisdom obscurations. Even the Germans of 2017 are vastly wiser I'd say than in 1939.
Just think of that level of growth on a scale of years and years.

Anyways, I think Vasana and I have been drinking the same tea, it seems. :D
Were the Germans of 1939 wiser than the Germans of 1812 (Beethoven meets Goethe)? I don't know. I don't think there is conclusive evidence that we really learn from history, or at least that it sticks. Look at our history. 3000 years and we make the same mistakes over and over...
I confess that when it comes to art, music, literature it definitely seems the good old days were better in Germany and Europe. For a woman back then, though, thinking of Freud's work, it would seem things weren't that great. Although if I found myself in the right circles (say Paris or wherever at the turn of the century or thereabouts) I think I'd have a pretty good time.

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Re: Former Pentagon UFO official: 'We may not be alone'

Post by Dan74 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:02 am

People theoretically have a lot more choices now (not sure why you brought Freud into this) which is a good thing, but we are also more neurotic, disconnected and overcome by a sense of valuelessness and futility, it seems. So much within our grasp, and all of it just seems like pointless shite.

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Re: Former Pentagon UFO official: 'We may not be alone'

Post by Iain » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:38 am

Dan74 wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:02 am
(not sure why you brought Freud into this)
Perhaps it's time to broach the subject of alien butt probes?

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