Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified

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Ricky
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Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified

Post by Ricky » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:21 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:49 pm
Ricky wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:31 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:13 pm
I went hunting with my dad once.

A bunch of elderly men getting very very very very high. Then going out into the woods to chill a bit on the pretension that something is going to be caught/shot.

That's hunting as far as I know it.
Yeah its all oldies hunting these days. My generation would rather stay at home, eat doritos, and play call of duty on xbox. Very unhealthy lifestyles.
In my neck of the woods, it is mostly bow hunters...
Looks fun. Probably takes more ability and practice than gun hunting.

Norwegian
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Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified

Post by Norwegian » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:26 pm

Ricky wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:21 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:49 pm
Ricky wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:31 pm

Yeah its all oldies hunting these days. My generation would rather stay at home, eat doritos, and play call of duty on xbox. Very unhealthy lifestyles.
In my neck of the woods, it is mostly bow hunters...
Looks fun. Probably takes more ability and practice than gun hunting.
Word of advice: Hunting does not match with Buddhadharma. If you really want to shoot something, then either go for target shooting on some kind of range, or take up CSGO or Overwatch on the PC, and see how far you can get there.

But don't hunt sentient beings.

Ricky
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Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified

Post by Ricky » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:35 pm

n
Norwegian wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:26 pm
Ricky wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:21 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:49 pm


In my neck of the woods, it is mostly bow hunters...
Looks fun. Probably takes more ability and practice than gun hunting.
Word of advice: Hunting does not match with Buddhadharma. If you really want to shoot something, then either go for target shooting on some kind of range, or take up CSGO or Overwatch on the PC, and see how far you can get there.

But don't hunt sentient beings.
If you read what I said before I mentioned that I'm a bit conflicted because of the first percept. I may or may not hunt.

Didn't mean to trigger anyone on here.

Norwegian
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Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified

Post by Norwegian » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:19 pm

Ricky wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:35 pm
n
Norwegian wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:26 pm
Ricky wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:21 pm

Looks fun. Probably takes more ability and practice than gun hunting.
Word of advice: Hunting does not match with Buddhadharma. If you really want to shoot something, then either go for target shooting on some kind of range, or take up CSGO or Overwatch on the PC, and see how far you can get there.

But don't hunt sentient beings.
If you read what I said before I mentioned that I'm a bit conflicted because of the first percept. I may or may not hunt.

Didn't mean to trigger anyone on here.
Oh I'm not triggered (that word is not really in my vocabulary). I was merely referring to what you yourself said before, i.e., "I might get my rifle and hunting licenses one day, but I am conflicted by the first percept a bit."

And so perhaps then you should contemplate this issue more deeply, because Buddhadharma does not support the hunting of sentient beings. If you're interested in literature that can be recommended study material here, read the following for inspiration and clarification:

Shantideva: The Way of the Bodhisattva: (Bodhicaryavatara) - https://www.amazon.com/dp/1590303881/

Kunzang Palden: The Nectar of Manjushri's Speech: A Detailed Commentary on Shantideva's Way of the Bodhisattva - https://www.amazon.com/dp/1590306996/

Khunu Rinpoche: "Vast as the Heavens, Deep as the Sea: Verses in Praise of Bodhicitta" - https://www.amazon.com/dp/0861711467/

:cheers:

Sādhaka
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Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified

Post by Sādhaka » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:01 pm

From what I understand, as a Buddhist/Bönpo one can kill animals only if you have the ability to bring them back to life (e.g. the well known story of Tilopa and some fish).

Eating meat can be okay if you did not kill the animal or if it was not killed specifically for you (but there's an like 200 page long debate in a thread called something like the great vegetarian debate).
“...we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.” — Khunu Lama
“Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.” — Longchenpa

Ricky
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Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified

Post by Ricky » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:13 am

Norwegian wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:19 pm
Ricky wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:35 pm
n
Norwegian wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:26 pm

Word of advice: Hunting does not match with Buddhadharma. If you really want to shoot something, then either go for target shooting on some kind of range, or take up CSGO or Overwatch on the PC, and see how far you can get there.

But don't hunt sentient beings.
If you read what I said before I mentioned that I'm a bit conflicted because of the first percept. I may or may not hunt.

Didn't mean to trigger anyone on here.
Oh I'm not triggered (that word is not really in my vocabulary). I was merely referring to what you yourself said before, i.e., "I might get my rifle and hunting licenses one day, but I am conflicted by the first percept a bit."

And so perhaps then you should contemplate this issue more deeply, because Buddhadharma does not support the hunting of sentient beings. If you're interested in literature that can be recommended study material here, read the following for inspiration and clarification:

Shantideva: The Way of the Bodhisattva: (Bodhicaryavatara) - https://www.amazon.com/dp/1590303881/

Kunzang Palden: The Nectar of Manjushri's Speech: A Detailed Commentary on Shantideva's Way of the Bodhisattva - https://www.amazon.com/dp/1590306996/

Khunu Rinpoche: "Vast as the Heavens, Deep as the Sea: Verses in Praise of Bodhicitta" - https://www.amazon.com/dp/0861711467/

:cheers:
Thank you for those. Good info. :thumbsup:

I know Buddhadharma is anti-killing so in the end I will either have to decide between that or hunting, and some other activities I like to partake in like drinking. I know I can't have it both ways.

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The Cicada
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Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified

Post by The Cicada » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:46 am

Ricky wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:13 am
Norwegian wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:19 pm
Ricky wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:35 pm
n
If you read what I said before I mentioned that I'm a bit conflicted because of the first percept. I may or may not hunt.

Didn't mean to trigger anyone on here.
Oh I'm not triggered (that word is not really in my vocabulary). I was merely referring to what you yourself said before, i.e., "I might get my rifle and hunting licenses one day, but I am conflicted by the first percept a bit."

And so perhaps then you should contemplate this issue more deeply, because Buddhadharma does not support the hunting of sentient beings. If you're interested in literature that can be recommended study material here, read the following for inspiration and clarification:

Shantideva: The Way of the Bodhisattva: (Bodhicaryavatara) - https://www.amazon.com/dp/1590303881/

Kunzang Palden: The Nectar of Manjushri's Speech: A Detailed Commentary on Shantideva's Way of the Bodhisattva - https://www.amazon.com/dp/1590306996/

Khunu Rinpoche: "Vast as the Heavens, Deep as the Sea: Verses in Praise of Bodhicitta" - https://www.amazon.com/dp/0861711467/

:cheers:
Thank you for those. Good info. :thumbsup:

I know Buddhadharma is anti-killing so in the end I will either have to decide between that or hunting, and some other activities I like to partake in like drinking. I know I can't have it both ways.
Makes you wonder how big game hunting could go catch-and-release.

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Grigoris
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Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified

Post by Grigoris » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:46 am

The Cicada wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:46 am
Makes you wonder how big game hunting could go catch-and-release.
By using tranqiliser darts. Means you have to get up REAL close to the cougar. We'll see how big and brave the hunters are then.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Ricky
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Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified

Post by Ricky » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:13 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:46 am
The Cicada wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:46 am
Makes you wonder how big game hunting could go catch-and-release.
By using tranqiliser darts. Means you have to get up REAL close to the cougar. We'll see how big and brave the hunters are then.
:roll:

Hunting is a sport. Nothing to do with with being "big and brave" although it would take some grapefruit sized balls to hunt down a 900 pound grizzly in the rocky mountain wilderness.

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Grigoris
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Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified

Post by Grigoris » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:21 pm

Ricky wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:13 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:46 am
The Cicada wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:46 am
Makes you wonder how big game hunting could go catch-and-release.
By using tranqiliser darts. Means you have to get up REAL close to the cougar. We'll see how big and brave the hunters are then.
:roll:

Hunting is a sport. Nothing to do with with being "big and brave" although it would take some grapefruit sized balls to hunt down a 900 pound grizzly in the rocky mountain wilderness.
Football is a sport. Hang-gliding is a sport. Hell, even hurling might be considered a sport. Shooting defenceless animals is murder. I used to hunt and fish, but at least we would eat the animals we killed. Killing for the sake of killing is sick. Killing animals that cannot be eaten is just stupid. Killing rare and endangered animals for the thrill of it is criminal.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:49 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:00 pm
Ricky wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:24 pm
And no hunting isn't murder, that is being a bit too dramatic.
No it isnot. The first precept teaches that one should not take the life of a sentient being. So if killing a human is murder, then killing an animal...
Would you call the Aboriginals who hunted bison murderers?
Completely irrelevant.
Technically, murder is the unlawful killing of one human being by another human being.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified

Post by Grigoris » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:49 pm
Technically, murder is the unlawful killing of one human being by another human being.
Technically... Yes. If you are a lawyer. I'm not. I am using it in the sense of premeditated killing.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:11 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:03 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:49 pm
Technically, murder is the unlawful killing of one human being by another human being.
Technically... Yes. If you are a lawyer. I'm not. I am using it in the sense of premeditated killing.
Well, killing animals is not the "not taking of life" indicated in the first precept. We can know this because if novice or bhikṣu kills a human being, they are expelled from the Sangha. Killing an animal, like drinking alcohol, is downfall requiring confession only, with no punishment, one of the 96 pācittiyas in the Thervāda Vinaya.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified

Post by Grigoris » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:24 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:11 pm
Well, killing animals is not the "not taking of life" indicated in the first precept. We can know this because if novice or bhikṣu kills a human being, they are expelled from the Sangha. Killing an animal, like drinking alcohol, is downfall requiring confession only, with no punishment, one of the 96 pācittiyas in the Thervāda Vinaya.
I disagree. This may show that killing of animals is not considered as serious as killing humans, it does not show that killing animals is not included in the First Precept. If it meant that then it would not require confession, if it was okay to kill animals, it would not require anything at all.

Anyway, for me, not being a monastic and all, the Vinaya is not my sole source of moral/ethical standards. If it was then I wouldn't be eating meals after midday or dressing in anything more than three pieces of cloth.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:32 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:24 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:11 pm
Well, killing animals is not the "not taking of life" indicated in the first precept. We can know this because if novice or bhikṣu kills a human being, they are expelled from the Sangha. Killing an animal, like drinking alcohol, is downfall requiring confession only, with no punishment, one of the 96 pācittiyas in the Thervāda Vinaya.
I disagree. This may show that killing of animals is not considered as serious as killing humans, it does not show that killing animals is not included in the First Precept. If it meant that then it would not require confession, if it was okay to kill animals, it would not require anything at all.

Anyway, for me, not being a monastic and all, the Vinaya is not my sole source of moral/ethical standard.
Why would the Buddha have a higher standard for lay people than for bhikṣus and novices? That does not make any sense. And no one said it was "ok." However, in the Vinaya, masturbating is a much more serious downfall than killing an animal —— requiring not only confession but temporary censure by the Sangha. This punishment means that you are put in isolation, and if you meet someone, you have to tell them what you did. By contrast, if you have killed an animal, you merely confess that you have done so at Posadha and the offense is purified without any further punishment or notice. Harming plants is the same level of downfall as killing an animal, BTW.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:36 pm

Ricky wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:30 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:01 pm
No.
Right, keep contradicting yourself and also wrong about the first percept as Malcolm has proven. Thanks Malcolm.
Killing animals may not be truly covered in the first precept, but the commitment of ahimsa, non-harming, is included in the commitment of refuge in the Dharma. It is not a precept, per say, but by going refuge in the Dharma, you are committing yourself to not harming living things.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified

Post by Grigoris » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:32 pm
Why would the Buddha have a higher standard for lay people than for bhikṣus and novices? That does not make any sense.
I didn't say anything abut the Buddha's standards, I said: "Anyway, for me, not being a monastic and all, the Vinaya is not my sole source of moral/ethical standards."
And no one said it was "ok." However, in the Vinaya, masturbating is a much more serious downfall than killing an animal —— requiring not only confession but temporary censure by the Sangha. This punishment means that you are put in isolation, and if you meet someone, you have to tell them what you did.
So monastics had a "thing" with masturbation. So what?
By contrast, if you have killed an animal, you merely confess that you have done so at Posadha and the offense is purified without any further punishment or notice. Harming plants is the same level of downfall as killing an animal, BTW.
Needlessly harming plants. Scratching about in the dirt is another one on the list. So is going to see theater and music. Again though, I am not a monastic thus: "So what?"
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:26 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:18 pm

I didn't say anything abut the Buddha's standards, I said: "Anyway, for me, not being a monastic and all, the Vinaya is not my sole source of moral/ethical standards."
I thought this was Dharmawheel, not Grigoriswheel.


Needlessly harming plants. Scratching about in the dirt is another one on the list. So is going to see theater and music. Again though, I am not a monastic thus: "So what?"
The issue is not what you personally accept and reject. The issue is how the first precept is to be understood for lay people. While it is commonly understood to include animals, it doesn't. This does not make killing animals acceptable.

The Buddha knew that lay people could not observe the precept against taking life if it included animals -- India was not a vegetarian country at the time (actually, it still isn't).
Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified

Post by Grigoris » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:26 pm
The issue is not what you personally accept and reject.
Well, for me it is. ;)
The issue is how the first precept is to be understood for lay people. While it is commonly understood to include animals, it doesn't. This does not make killing animals acceptable.
Does the exact wording of the precept refer to humans specifically?
The Buddha knew that lay people could not observe the precept against taking life if it included animals -- India was not a vegetarian country at the time (actually, it still isn't).
Didn't say it was. The issue of compulsory vegetarianism even lead (was one of the factors) to schism in the Sangha. But then I am not trying to impose anything on anybody.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Wherever a Buddha appears - the world is purified

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:39 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:30 pm
Does the exact wording of the precept refer to humans specifically?
With the exception of the prohibition against intoxication, the wording of the first four precepts are identical for laypeople and ordained. Since there is a qualifying proviso for novices and bhikṣus that clarifies that killing animals is a far lesser offense, and because in the commentaries on Vinaya "abandon taking life" refers specifically to human beings, we can understand that the first precept refers to killing humans.

As I wrote above, the killing of animals is covered under the general commitment to ahimsa we take on as part of going for refuge to the Dharma.

So, if you kill an animal, you may not have broken the first precept, but you have breached your commitment of ahimsa.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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