Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

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dharmafootsteps
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Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by dharmafootsteps » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:36 am

This video is making the rounds on social media just now: "Jordan Peterson debate on the gender pay gap, campus protests and postmodernism"

Jordan Peterson, a psychologist from the University of Toronto, does a pretty good job of taking apart Cathy Newman's arguments in a debate on feminism.

I've always considered myself a feminist, have always deeply cared about social welfare, equality, voted for left wing parties in my country etc. However Peterson and a few others are starting to make me question certain parts of current left wing ideology. The debate above isn't really a fair contest, Newman doesn't listen to what Peterson is actually saying, has an emotional reaction to almost every topic, and throws strawman after strawman. Peterson calmly deals with it all and cites evidence for his opinions.

I aware much of my belief about feminism and social justice is based on assumptions, so when someone like Peterson comes along, who has a degree of intellectual rigour to his approach, it's easy to shake the foundation. I'm bringing this up here as, 1) most Buddhists I know are left wing and feminist, 2) I'd like to hear the opinions of others who have similar base views to me, based upon the Dharma (I'm talking to other non-Buddhist friends about it too).

Is anyone else currently feeling uneasy about trends in left wing politics (I'm sure almost all of us are already uneasy about the current right, to say the least, this isn't a question of left vs. right)? Does anyone else have an opinion on Peterson's points in the above video, or modern feminism in general? And finally can anyone suggest more rigorous modern feminist thinkers/academics I can read who would provide a balanced view to those of people like Peterson?

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by tingdzin » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:00 pm

Test

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by tingdzin » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:03 pm

Yes, of course, the left in America (and other places) is becoming more and more knee-jerk and less intellectual, and not just regarding feminism, but across the board. It's extremely worrisome to those of us whose sympathies are more leftist but who hate stupidity and intellectual "orthodoxy". I don't have time to watch the clip you submitted, though, so I can't make judgments on his individual arguments.

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Tlalok » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:04 pm

Peterson is not arguing in good faith. His proud comparison of trans activists to Mao Zedong is disgusting. He's just putting on a veneer of calm and reason, but his argument is the same vile gibberish we've heard before.

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:06 pm

The thing is that she is just terrible at dicussing. She never listens and seems to be so agitated, that makes it an easy night for him.

That aside: The problem is not left or right wing or male or female (or anything in between), the problem is that we as mankind are ruining our environement. Due to all the powerful machines we invented the outcome of our actions, which are lead by disturbing emotions, is much more harmful than in the past.

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Ricky » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:06 pm

Jesus christ. That was hard to watch.

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:23 pm

Ricky wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:06 pm
Jesus christ. That was hard to watch.
Why?

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Tlalok » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:41 pm

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:06 pm
The thing is that she is just terrible at dicussing. She never listens and seems to be so agitated, that makes it an easy night for him.
Yep, she was not ready for a debate like this. You've got to understand that people like this are going to say outrageous things calmly, so that if you get agitated / show emotion (particularly if you are a woman), you are seen to have lost the argument. It's a common rhetorical technique used by the alt-right / neo-nazis / rationalists / reactionaries.

A proper philosopher would ruin Peterson, but she lets him score cheap rhetorical points that ignorant people will ascribe to "owning dumb feminists". Just imagine what Paxman would have done to this clown.

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:03 pm

Tlalok wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:41 pm
Yep, she was not ready for a debate like this. You've got to understand that people like this are going to say outrageous things calmly, so that if you get agitated / show emotion (particularly if you are a woman), you are seen to have lost the argument. It's a common rhetorical technique used by the alt-right / neo-nazis / rationalists / reactionaries.

A proper philosopher would ruin Peterson, but she lets him score cheap rhetorical points that ignorant people will ascribe to "owning dumb feminists". Just imagine what Paxman would have done to this clown.
:good:

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by madhusudan » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:49 am

His claim regarding the pay gap seems to be that women and men are different biologically and psychologically. The biology plays in with childbearing age restriction for women but not men. Psychologically, they differ in their interests and goals on average although of course there are outliers and everyone is an individual. On average, men are more interested and willing to sacrifice everything else in life for a high position. In light of these differences, equal outcomes would not be expected or desired.

(If that inaccurately represents his position, make corrections.)

I'd like to hear counter-arguments.

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Ricky » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:30 am

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:23 pm
Ricky wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:06 pm
Jesus christ. That was hard to watch.
Why?
Interviewer was atrocious, making all kinds of straw man arguments and projecting. She got nailed hard for it.

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:10 am

madhusudan wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:49 am
His claim regarding the pay gap seems to be that women and men are different biologically and psychologically. The biology plays in with childbearing age restriction for women but not men. Psychologically, they differ in their interests and goals on average although of course there are outliers and everyone is an individual. On average, men are more interested and willing to sacrifice everything else in life for a high position. In light of these differences, equal outcomes would not be expected or desired.

(If that inaccurately represents his position, make corrections.)

I'd like to hear counter-arguments.
The thing about the gender pay gap, at least in Germany, is not that men and women are paid different in total. Nobody's really complaining about that due to the reasons mentioned above. The thing is that women with the same qualifications and the same experience get paid 8% less on the same job as men. This was investigated by the Statistisches Bundesamt, a neutral, public financed and highly respected institution.
(Source: http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/sozial ... 25106.html)

That is also what the current issue with the BBC journalist in Hong Kong is about:

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/ ... er-pay-gap

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Fortyeightvows » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:37 am

The basis of a paygap between genders is as old as humanity. put simply, woman require less calories than men.

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:09 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:37 am
The basis of a paygap between genders is as old as humanity. put simply, woman require less calories than men.
frak amazing... :lol:
A belated New Years Resolution 2018.

No posts or responses to posts outside of the Vajrayana forums. Its just a waste of time.

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Dan74 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:43 pm

What's the worst that he says that people find wrong and objectionable?
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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Dan74 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:47 pm

dharmafootsteps wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:36 am
This video is making the rounds on social media just now: "Jordan Peterson debate on the gender pay gap, campus protests and postmodernism"

Jordan Peterson, a psychologist from the University of Toronto, does a pretty good job of taking apart Cathy Newman's arguments in a debate on feminism.

I've always considered myself a feminist, have always deeply cared about social welfare, equality, voted for left wing parties in my country etc. However Peterson and a few others are starting to make me question certain parts of current left wing ideology. The debate above isn't really a fair contest, Newman doesn't listen to what Peterson is actually saying, has an emotional reaction to almost every topic, and throws strawman after strawman. Peterson calmly deals with it all and cites evidence for his opinions.

I aware much of my belief about feminism and social justice is based on assumptions, so when someone like Peterson comes along, who has a degree of intellectual rigour to his approach, it's easy to shake the foundation. I'm bringing this up here as, 1) most Buddhists I know are left wing and feminist, 2) I'd like to hear the opinions of others who have similar base views to me, based upon the Dharma (I'm talking to other non-Buddhist friends about it too).

Is anyone else currently feeling uneasy about trends in left wing politics (I'm sure almost all of us are already uneasy about the current right, to say the least, this isn't a question of left vs. right)? Does anyone else have an opinion on Peterson's points in the above video, or modern feminism in general? And finally can anyone suggest more rigorous modern feminist thinkers/academics I can read who would provide a balanced view to those of people like Peterson?
I guess in reply to your OP, I'd say that this topic is so emotionally charged that instinctively the first thing most of us do is label the speaker as either 'one of us' or 'one of them' and then filter everything he/she says through this distorting lens. This is what I find most fascinating about this - not the Red Pill and the entire "we've been lied to and hoodwinked by the feminists, etc" contention, but the highly emotive and polarised discourse that allows no space for a real discussion. You can see it in the way the interviewer reacts to him, which is far from being extreme from my experience (having spent a fair few years at Universities in Australia). The fault, I put it to you, lies not with her, but with the way the quest for the fair and respectful treatment of women, which is a noble goal we should all embrace, has to some extend, morphed into a divisive and authoritarian ideology that deals in generalisations, glib platitudes, blame and shame, rather than seeking real solutions for real problems.

What Peterson does, in my view, is present nuanced positions which are anathema to the rabid elements on both sides. The identity politics left and their sympathisers see him as defending the status quo and by default obstructing women's quest for equality and fair treatment, because he does not espouse their slogans verbatim, never mind his protestations to the contrary and his vocal support for the empowerment of women. The alt-right and their sympathisers no doubt seize on him as a respectable face than exposes the false dominant ideology, so for the time being they turn a blind eye to the fact that he is not a misogynist, nor even a proponent of their nonsense about male intellectual superiority, inherent right to dominate women, blah blah... And so on it goes... with truth, as it often is, the casualty of the relentless polemics.
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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:00 pm

Tlalok wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:41 pm
Yep, she was not ready for a debate like this. You've got to understand that people like this are going to say outrageous things calmly, so that if you get agitated / show emotion (particularly if you are a woman), you are seen to have lost the argument.
In my experience, new (young) leftists will always see the man who made someone else angry as the loser. It would have been even better if he had "made" her cry. That would definitively secure his loss in the eyes of many leftists.

Point-and-case, many people think she demolished Peterson.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Dan74 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:15 pm

I think she did put one question to him that he didn't address in an adequate manner. This was when she asked why don't the company ceos, the powers-that-be change the culture to make it more women friendly. That was a good point and it seeed to stump him somewhat. But having looked at Peterson a bit more, he is basically conservative thinker who believes that the hierarchies are primarily meritocratic. This is the truly contentious issue here, IMO.

Other than that, what the interviewer did was try to project Peterson's complex positions onto the shockingly simplistic discourse that we've come to have. "So you're saying women are not good enough to achieve high positions?" "No, that's not what I am saying at all."

The interview itself is fascinating in the way that an intelligent person (the interviewer) appears to be unable (or unwilling?) to engage with nuanced statements about social issues.
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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by MiphamFan » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:33 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:00 pm
Tlalok wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:41 pm
Yep, she was not ready for a debate like this. You've got to understand that people like this are going to say outrageous things calmly, so that if you get agitated / show emotion (particularly if you are a woman), you are seen to have lost the argument.
In my experience, new (young) leftists will always see the man who made someone else angry as the loser. It would have been even better if he had "made" her cry. That would definitively secure his loss in the eyes of many leftists.

Point-and-case, many people think she demolished Peterson.
Seriously?

The "Left" needs to wake the **** up. Can you imagine Stalin crying after a lost argument and claiming that he won?

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by KathyLauren » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:54 am

Jordan Peterson made such an ass of himself during the debate on Bill C-16 that I wouldn't believe anything he said. If he said the sky was blue, I'd want to go outside and check.

He is a right-winger, and I'll be honest, that is a strike against him, as far as I am concerned. But I will listen to other right-wingers if they make logical arguments. I can't listen to him. His entire rise to public awareness was based on his position on Bill C-16, and that position was a totally nonsensical, illogical, straw-man argument. In my view, he has zero credibility.

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