Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

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dharmafootsteps
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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by dharmafootsteps » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:11 am

Thank you for the opinions everyone. Glad I posted this here. I've tried engaging a few other people about it, even posting it on a feminist forum, and surprisingly had almost no push back against it. Everyone seemed quite happy with Peterson's positions. This is the first place that's given a range of interesting perspectives.

Trying to reason with my own response to him (not just this debate, but his public opinions/work more generally) is proving a challenging and stimulating task.

In the past I've often seen people posting opinions of Peterson along the lines of Tialok's posts e.g. extremely dismissive, disgusted, or even as if he's the embodiment of the alt-right/neo-nazis. This is prevalent in the press as well, with him constantly being labelled as alt-right etc. I had a bit of this same knee-jerk response to some of his stuff initially, but I didn't grasp onto this as I wasn't sure I was correct, and have tried to examine it further.

Having delved into his stuff a bit more, these categorisations of his opinions feel not only lazy, but wrong, and partly characteristic of some of the issues we're facing that he's getting at. You certainly don't have to agree with him, but I see him as being very much anti alt-right. It's just a shame that some of them grab onto his views without understanding them, as he's one of the few noticeable figures pushing back at elements of the left.

If you listen to what he says, he's very much arguing from a centre position, even centre-left. He self identifies as a "classical British liberal", which I think is justified listening to his political stances carefully. But many people seem to have the same cognitive dissonance Newman displayed in the interview (and that I've been guilty of myself), where any criticism of the current identity politics gets one labelled as right wing.

I've also regularly seem him dismissed as if he's not intellectually/academically qualified to be talking about this. With this argument all his points are generally just ignored in favour of a generic, "he's not worth listening to", "he'd get destroyed by a real philosopher" etc. Personally I would very much like to see him debate some qualified to engage properly from the other side. He's clearly highly intelligent and hard working, to challenge that would seem silly, and he has basically spent over three decades obsessively studying why humans develop the ideologies they do. In particular how these can leads to evils such as the millions of deaths that occurred due to Nazism and Soviet communism in the 20th century, and the psychological underpinnings of ideologies that drove people towards what could have been the destruction of the modern world during the Cold War. I don't see any issue with disagreeing with him, but if one pays attention to his actual work, to dismiss him as not knowing what he's talking about seems silly. He's clearly thought deeply and carefully about this stuff, and does his best to incorporate reason and evidence and come to impartial conclusions. I'd even say he's coming from a place of deep compassion, caring about the world, and fear of some of the evils of the 20th century.

Part of the problem is that I've not seen people properly contend with his ideas (or similar ones), such as in the above interview with Newman. She's highly educated and intelligent in her own right, and immersed in modern feminism, but she seemed totally incapable of backing up any of her own views with anything other than emotion, incapable of listening to what Peterson was actually saying, and incapable of responding to it, again, with anything other than emotion and reactivity. It feels like that characterises the whole of the lefts response to him. Where's the debate? It's just: he's vile, racist, homophobic, transphobic, sexist, darling of the alt-right, would be destroyed by a real academic etc. Engaging someone at that level doesn't accomplish anything.

When I first heard people going on about the "radical left", I thought it was just right wingers complaining about a non-issue. Of course there are going to be radical positions on both sides, but given the issues we've seen with the alt-right and a Trump presidency, complaining about the left seemed to be missing the real issue. I'm now suspecting I was completely missing the big picture however. Where are the moderates who can debate someone like Peterson from a moderate position, not just label him and throw him in with the alt-right as almost the entire media establishment is doing. The left and right seem to be polarising each other and it's worrying, the new mainstream seems to be either extreme left or extreme right views, with an inability to think critically, and the tendency to immediately label anyone you disagree with as the "other".

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by dharmafootsteps » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:13 am

Dan74 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:15 pm
I think she did put one question to him that he didn't address in an adequate manner. This was when she asked why don't the company ceos, the powers-that-be change the culture to make it more women friendly. That was a good point and it seeed to stump him somewhat. But having looked at Peterson a bit more, he is basically conservative thinker who believes that the hierarchies are primarily meritocratic. This is the truly contentious issue here, IMO.

Other than that, what the interviewer did was try to project Peterson's complex positions onto the shockingly simplistic discourse that we've come to have. "So you're saying women are not good enough to achieve high positions?" "No, that's not what I am saying at all."

The interview itself is fascinating in the way that an intelligent person (the interviewer) appears to be unable (or unwilling?) to engage with nuanced statements about social issues.
Agree with both your posts Dan, very well put, thanks (and much more concisely that me). The only thing I'm not sure about is that he's conservative. I could be wrong, but I'm starting to think he only looks that way in the current climate.

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by dharmafootsteps » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:13 am

KathyLauren wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:54 am
Jordan Peterson made such an ass of himself during the debate on Bill C-16 that I wouldn't believe anything he said. If he said the sky was blue, I'd want to go outside and check.

He is a right-winger, and I'll be honest, that is a strike against him, as far as I am concerned. But I will listen to other right-wingers if they make logical arguments. I can't listen to him. His entire rise to public awareness was based on his position on Bill C-16, and that position was a totally nonsensical, illogical, straw-man argument. In my view, he has zero credibility.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
Could you expand on this. What was illogical about his position? I haven't looked at it in detail, but his argument didn't seem to be anything about transpeople in general, but rather that the bill went too far in terms of mandating how people should speak (and not just prevent abuse, as in current laws on racism etc.) I get the impression he'd have taken the same stand whether it was mandating speech about transpeople, men, women, race, the left, the right or any perceived classification of people.

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Simon E. » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:13 pm

KathyLauren wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:54 am
Jordan Peterson made such an ass of himself during the debate on Bill C-16 that I wouldn't believe anything he said. If he said the sky was blue, I'd want to go outside and check.

He is a right-winger, and I'll be honest, that is a strike against him, as far as I am concerned. But I will listen to other right-wingers if they make logical arguments. I can't listen to him. His entire rise to public awareness was based on his position on Bill C-16, and that position was a totally nonsensical, illogical, straw-man argument. In my view, he has zero credibility.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
This :thumbsup:

I knew little of the man..delved a little and discovered that he is a poster boy for the Brit neo con Magazine The Spectator who are climate deniers and Trumpists to a man. That told me all I need to know.
The Spectator was once a bastion of quirky views. However, it has succumbed to a knee-jerk neo-con world view.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by KathyLauren » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:29 pm

dharmafootsteps wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:13 am
KathyLauren wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:54 am
Jordan Peterson made such an ass of himself during the debate on Bill C-16 that I wouldn't believe anything he said. If he said the sky was blue, I'd want to go outside and check.

He is a right-winger, and I'll be honest, that is a strike against him, as far as I am concerned. But I will listen to other right-wingers if they make logical arguments. I can't listen to him. His entire rise to public awareness was based on his position on Bill C-16, and that position was a totally nonsensical, illogical, straw-man argument. In my view, he has zero credibility.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
Could you expand on this. What was illogical about his position? I haven't looked at it in detail, but his argument didn't seem to be anything about transpeople in general, but rather that the bill went too far in terms of mandating how people should speak (and not just prevent abuse, as in current laws on racism etc.) I get the impression he'd have taken the same stand whether it was mandating speech about transpeople, men, women, race, the left, the right or any perceived classification of people.
The entire speech thing was a fabrication. Bill C-16 does not say anything at all about speech. (Read the actual text of the bill here: http://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/42 ... yal-assent) It merely adds gender identity to two already existing laws, the Human Rights Act and the Criminal Code. As you can see in the wording of the revised Criminal Code paragraph, the deciding factor in whether or not a speech or action is a hate crime is the motivation behind it.

Enough hate crimes have been prosecuted and brought to the Supreme Court to have a really good idea of what the courts consider hate speech and what they don't. Using the wrong pronouns, innocently or even maliciously, may be rude, but it does not in itself constitute a hate crime. It is only a hate crime if the intention was to provoke hatred. Someone attempting to bring a charge of hate speech against a person for using the wrong pronouns would be laughed out of court. In fact, the case would probably never make it to court; no prosecutor in their right mind would take on the case.

So the idea that the legislation mandates the use of appropriate pronouns is fiction. In American terms, "fake news".

It is a great strategy for some unknown who wants to break into divisive politics: invent some crazy piece of fake news, get it quoted in the news media, get on all the talk shows, and voila, you are a household name and the ignorant masses will vote for you in the next election. Peterson was a nobody until he came up with this fake news.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Karma Dorje » Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:49 pm

Cui bono?

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/0 ... nding.html

Sounds to me like he is mining the same vein as Ann Coulter, Tomi Lahren et al. There's gold in them hills.

I fail to see how this is anything more than a means for Jordan Peterson to enrich himself. How can one possibly argue that half of the human race deserves to be paid less than the other half based on plumbing? His argument that this is because of agreeableness would be merely risible, were it not so obnoxious. What's next, justifying paying blacks less because they are "lazy"?!
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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Dan74 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:00 pm

Yes, having looked up his record on this C-16 legislation, I must say my respect for him plummeted. Hard to believe he was simply misinformed. You are of course much better informed about these matters, Kathy.

But in the interview from the OP he sounded quite reasonable, I thought.

One of the troubles with such opportunists is that there are over-zealous PC and SJW's out there who go to absurd extremes thereby giving fuel to these fear-mongerers. IMO, of course.
KathyLauren wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:29 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:13 am
KathyLauren wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:54 am
Jordan Peterson made such an ass of himself during the debate on Bill C-16 that I wouldn't believe anything he said. If he said the sky was blue, I'd want to go outside and check.

He is a right-winger, and I'll be honest, that is a strike against him, as far as I am concerned. But I will listen to other right-wingers if they make logical arguments. I can't listen to him. His entire rise to public awareness was based on his position on Bill C-16, and that position was a totally nonsensical, illogical, straw-man argument. In my view, he has zero credibility.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
Could you expand on this. What was illogical about his position? I haven't looked at it in detail, but his argument didn't seem to be anything about transpeople in general, but rather that the bill went too far in terms of mandating how people should speak (and not just prevent abuse, as in current laws on racism etc.) I get the impression he'd have taken the same stand whether it was mandating speech about transpeople, men, women, race, the left, the right or any perceived classification of people.
The entire speech thing was a fabrication. Bill C-16 does not say anything at all about speech. (Read the actual text of the bill here: http://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/42 ... yal-assent) It merely adds gender identity to two already existing laws, the Human Rights Act and the Criminal Code. As you can see in the wording of the revised Criminal Code paragraph, the deciding factor in whether or not a speech or action is a hate crime is the motivation behind it.

Enough hate crimes have been prosecuted and brought to the Supreme Court to have a really good idea of what the courts consider hate speech and what they don't. Using the wrong pronouns, innocently or even maliciously, may be rude, but it does not in itself constitute a hate crime. It is only a hate crime if the intention was to provoke hatred. Someone attempting to bring a charge of hate speech against a person for using the wrong pronouns would be laughed out of court. In fact, the case would probably never make it to court; no prosecutor in their right mind would take on the case.

So the idea that the legislation mandates the use of appropriate pronouns is fiction. In American terms, "fake news".

It is a great strategy for some unknown who wants to break into divisive politics: invent some crazy piece of fake news, get it quoted in the news media, get on all the talk shows, and voila, you are a household name and the ignorant masses will vote for you in the next election. Peterson was a nobody until he came up with this fake news.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by KathyLauren » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:09 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:00 pm
But in the interview from the OP he sounded quite reasonable, I thought.
I listened to the first couple of minutes of the video, and yes, he was talking about psychology, which is his field, and sounded reasonable. However, knowing that he is a person who makes up lies for his own agenda and his own personal gain, I simply could not stomach devoting half an hour of my life to listening to him. Particularly since some of the other comments in this thread gave me a preview of what he would say.

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Tlalok » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:06 pm

dharmafootsteps wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:11 am
In the past I've often seen people posting opinions of Peterson along the lines of Tialok's posts e.g. extremely dismissive, disgusted, or even as if he's the embodiment of the alt-right/neo-nazis. This is prevalent in the press as well, with him constantly being labelled as alt-right etc. I had a bit of this same knee-jerk response to some of his stuff initially, but I didn't grasp onto this as I wasn't sure I was correct, and have tried to examine it further.
He equated trans people to Chairman Mao. The interviewer gave him the (very charitable imo) opportunity to walk that back and he refused and doubled down. That tipped me off that we are not dealing with someone arguing in good faith. It also makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The right will scream and whine whenever a left wing person makes any comparison to the Nazis, but apparently its fine to do the reverse to people wanting to be referred by the pronouns they prefer. Call that a "knee jerk" if you want, but I'll call lazy ad-homs out as bad philosophy whenever I see it.
dharmafootsteps wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:11 am
If you listen to what he says, he's very much arguing from a centre position, even centre-left. He self identifies as a "classical British liberal", which I think is justified listening to his political stances carefully. But many people seem to have the same cognitive dissonance Newman displayed in the interview (and that I've been guilty of myself), where any criticism of the current identity politics gets one labelled as right wing.
I don't think Classical Liberalism (note the caps) mean's what you think it means. Its a fancy way of saying you're a conservative/libertarian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism. Please note that masking your beliefs like this is a common alt-right / neo-nazi way of engaging with people to make their beliefs seem more reasonable. "Sargon of Akkad" (one of the originators of the alt-right) also happens to claim that they are a Classical Liberal, so does everyone's favourite paedophile apologist Milo Yiannopoulos. I may be wrong on this one but I think Richard Spencer flirted with Classical Liberalism as well before becoming a firm White Nationalist.
dharmafootsteps wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:11 am
I've also regularly seem him dismissed as if he's not intellectually/academically qualified to be talking about this. With this argument all his points are generally just ignored in favour of a generic, "he's not worth listening to", "he'd get destroyed by a real philosopher" etc. Personally I would very much like to see him debate some qualified to engage properly from the other side. He's clearly highly intelligent and hard working, to challenge that would seem silly, and he has basically spent over three decades obsessively studying why humans develop the ideologies they do. In particular how these can leads to evils such as the millions of deaths that occurred due to Nazism and Soviet communism in the 20th century, and the psychological underpinnings of ideologies that drove people towards what could have been the destruction of the modern world during the Cold War. I don't see any issue with disagreeing with him, but if one pays attention to his actual work, to dismiss him as not knowing what he's talking about seems silly. He's clearly thought deeply and carefully about this stuff, and does his best to incorporate reason and evidence and come to impartial conclusions. I'd even say he's coming from a place of deep compassion, caring about the world, and fear of some of the evils of the 20th century.
Richard Dawkins is one of the best evolutionary geneticists of the 20th century, just because he is good at that does not make him a good philosopher. The same is true for Ben Carson, one of the greatest neurosurgeons of all time, and conversely one of the most stupid people to ever be in government. Peterson may be a good evolutionary psychologist, but that does not make him a philosopher. Time and time again he is lazy in his thought and rhetoric, which is rich for someone who is so enraged by imprecise language and is an indication of an amateurish grip of political science and philosophy.

One example: He conflates Marxism and Postmodernism, two belief systems that are utterly opposed to one another. I think that Peterson has a tendency to label anyone who disagrees with him as a "cultural Marxist" (what is one of those anyway?).

His reading of Marxism is clearly way off base, as he seems to think that "Identity Politics" is fundamental to it. Anyone who has read the first three pages of the Communist Manifesto can see the flaw in this, Marx actually brings everything down to class issues. In fact, this happens to be one of the major schisms in Left wing politics nowadays. Of course, to Peterson everything on the left is a massive homogenous bloc that should be purged from the academy (also rich from someone apparently concerned with "freedom of speech").

I also think you're attributing a lot to his altruism and compassion when all evidence points to the contrary. Most academics don't feel the need to start crowdfunding sites and earn $500,000 a year.

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by MiphamFan » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:40 am

:good:

Great analysis of Peterson.

I read some "conservative"/"right-wing" blogs but never really understood the appeal of Peterson. I tried to get into his psychology stuff, but really even there, I don't see much that is not common sense and really actionable.

He appears "reasonable" because his opponents are insipid and easily get hysterical. Really the "left" needs to get its act together and go beyond low-context talking to each other in buzzwords the uninitiated don't know.

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:05 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:40 am
:good:

Great analysis of Peterson.

I read some "conservative"/"right-wing" blogs but never really understood the appeal of Peterson. I tried to get into his psychology stuff, but really even there, I don't see much that is not common sense and really actionable.

He appears "reasonable" because his opponents are insipid and easily get hysterical. Really the "left" needs to get its act together and go beyond low-context talking to each other in buzzwords the uninitiated don't know.
Thank you. Part of what gives people like Peterson a veneer of respectability is the mainstream left is so intellectually bereft these days. So it's a kind if bait and switch, you can hold up a well -argued but noxious philosophy beside someone who simply can't debate, and even if your ideas are junk, they will look ok.
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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by pothigai » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:23 am



I found this to be a quite an interesting commentary on the subject
ہستی اپنی حباب کی سی ہے
یہ نمائش سراب کی سی ہے

hasti apni habaab ki si hai
yeh numaaish saraab ki si hai

Like a bubble is your existence
This display is like an illusion

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by boda » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:28 am

Tlalok wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:06 pm
He [Peterson] conflates Marxism and Postmodernism, two belief systems that are utterly opposed to one another. I think that Peterson has a tendency to label anyone who disagrees with him as a "cultural Marxist" (what is one of those anyway?).

His reading of Marxism is clearly way off base, as he seems to think that "Identity Politics" is fundamental to it. Anyone who has read the first three pages of the Communist Manifesto can see the flaw in this, Marx actually brings everything down to class issues.
From what I gather he fuses postmodernism and Marxism in a feeble attempt to portray Liberals as resentful nihilists who value power over truth. I imagine that's why the Alt-right embrace him and intellectuals dismiss him. Subsequent to the interview with Cathy Newman, Peterson even comments that the underlying conflict between them was his views against her postmodern Neo-Marxist philosophy. Did she say anything in the interview that expresses a postmodern Neo-Marxist philosophy? Going by the interview, it may be safe to assume she's at least somewhat of a feminist or has egalitarian values, but he admits himself that even that may be for show.

At least her strawmen were obvious, his are insidious and just convincing enough to fool anyone on the far-right who is sufficiently desperate.
dharmafootsteps wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:11 am
When I first heard people going on about the "radical left", I thought it was just right wingers complaining about a non-issue. Of course there are going to be radical positions on both sides, but given the issues we've seen with the alt-right and a Trump presidency, complaining about the left seemed to be missing the real issue. I'm now suspecting I was completely missing the big picture however. Where are the moderates who can debate someone like Peterson from a moderate position, not just label him and throw him in with the alt-right as almost the entire media establishment is doing. The left and right seem to be polarising each other and it's worrying, the new mainstream seems to be either extreme left or extreme right views, with an inability to think critically, and the tendency to immediately label anyone you disagree with as the "other".
Is Antifa (the radical left) actually a genocidal threat? Should they be silenced or forced to not interfere with unpopular speakers at college campuses?

Peterson is divisive, probably by design, and is not a moderate.

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by tingdzin » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:22 am

dharmafootsteps wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:11 am
The left and right seem to be polarising each other and it's worrying, the new mainstream seems to be either extreme left or extreme right views, with an inability to think critically, and the tendency to immediately label anyone you disagree with as the "other".
This is it. Some of the responses you got provided further illustrations of the problem, whether the submitter realized it or not.

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Dan74 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:28 am

KathyLauren wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:09 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:00 pm
But in the interview from the OP he sounded quite reasonable, I thought.
I listened to the first couple of minutes of the video, and yes, he was talking about psychology, which is his field, and sounded reasonable. However, knowing that he is a person who makes up lies for his own agenda and his own personal gain, I simply could not stomach devoting half an hour of my life to listening to him. Particularly since some of the other comments in this thread gave me a preview of what he would say.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
Peterson obviously has serious issues with integrity. And as one-sided as many of his views are, they throw into sharp relief the onesided nature of the dominant narrative, particilarly the identity politics in its more avsurd and out of touch manifestations and the sidelining of the Voiceless Class in the English-speaking world, the low socioeconomic former factory workers, poor rural dwellers, the disenfranchised.

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:57 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:28 am
Peterson obviously has serious issues with integrity. And as one-sided as many of his views are, they throw into sharp relief the onesided nature of the dominant narrative, particilarly the identity politics in its more avsurd and out of touch manifestations and the sidelining of the Voiceless Class in the English-speaking world, the low socioeconomic former factory workers, poor rural dwellers, the disenfranchised.
Are you saying that identity politics is the dominant paradigm?
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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Tlalok » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:38 pm

boda wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:28 am

From what I gather he fuses postmodernism and Marxism in a feeble attempt to portray Liberals as resentful nihilists who value power over truth. I imagine that's why the Alt-right embrace him and intellectuals dismiss him. Subsequent to the interview with Cathy Newman, Peterson even comments that the underlying conflict between them was his views against her postmodern Neo-Marxist philosophy. Did she say anything in the interview that expresses a postmodern Neo-Marxist philosophy? Going by the interview, it may be safe to assume she's at least somewhat of a feminist or has egalitarian values, but he admits himself that even that may be for show.

At least her strawmen were obvious, his are insidious and just convincing enough to fool anyone on the far-right who is sufficiently desperate.
Agreed. Its mind-boggling that he somehow conflates modern American corporatist feminism with Maoism and people seem to fall over themselves cooing at how good a philosopher he is.

It looks like a depressing amount of people (even on this forum) have fallen for his rhetorical sleights of hand. There are absolutely conservative philosophers of merit like Borges, Heidegger, Hume and Locke. Peterson is not on the same level as these thinkers, because they actually have coherent arguments and are presenting their thoughts in good faith. This is hopefully obvious to people who approach Peterson without letting their bias against current social issues clouding their reason.

There is always a place for philosophy to go against the grain of the dominant discourse (which I have don't think that Peterson is actually doing), it's where some of the greatest philosophers of history have dwelled from Socrates onwards (Diogenes of Sinope, Spinoza, Kant, Deleuze etc.). But unless they treat the discipline with the respect it deserves, they'll be consigned to the dustbin. Appealing to white fragility and labelling all feminists as synonymous with the Shining Path isn't really that brave or original.
This is it. Some of the responses you got provided further illustrations of the problem, whether the submitter realized it or not.
The Overton window has skewed so right wing in the past decade or so that views that would be abhorrent in the recent past are now being aired openly. We have honest to god Nazis marching down the streets and the President happily regurgitates their talking points with only marginal sanitization. What this means is that what was "centrist" in the past is now seen as the "left wing", while open white nationalism takes the "right wing" label.

Emmanuel Macron is a pretty standard center-right neoliberal, but compared to Trump he looks like the second coming of VI Lenin. This makes the "center" now somewhere between CNN and The Daily Stormer, and serves to make actual center-left politicians like Jeremy Corbin in the UK look like dangerous radicals. This is why everything seems to be polarizing around the "extreme right" and "radical left". A lot of the blame can be laid on cable news and social media networks giving tacit approval to white-nationalist viewpoints.

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Dan74 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:28 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:57 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:28 am
Peterson obviously has serious issues with integrity. And as one-sided as many of his views are, they throw into sharp relief the onesided nature of the dominant narrative, particilarly the identity politics in its more avsurd and out of touch manifestations and the sidelining of the Voiceless Class in the English-speaking world, the low socioeconomic former factory workers, poor rural dwellers, the disenfranchised.
Are you saying that identity politics is the dominant paradigm?
Among the educated urbanites in the English-speaking world, yes. At least in my experience.

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:41 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:57 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:28 am
Peterson obviously has serious issues with integrity. And as one-sided as many of his views are, they throw into sharp relief the onesided nature of the dominant narrative, particilarly the identity politics in its more avsurd and out of touch manifestations and the sidelining of the Voiceless Class in the English-speaking world, the low socioeconomic former factory workers, poor rural dwellers, the disenfranchised.
Are you saying that identity politics is the dominant paradigm?
It's definitely the dominant paradigm in the US on the left, there is no question whatsoever. People above a certain income bracket on the left here don't even conceive of class as a thing, and have fully bought into the idea that it's somehow possible to miraculously have solidarity by everyone hanging out in their own little self-imposed camps and trying to publicly be as good an "ally" as possible, people are very nervous about that. Sometimes it's so much about performance that it's kind of mind boggling and surreal. The old school left notion of solidarity (of any kind really, much less class-based) is nowhere to be found here, and even gets one accused of racism should one choose to bring it up.

A nice recent example would be the concern over the "pussy hats" used by women at the Womens' march: Some folks actually raised the complaint that they were racist and or transphobic due to the fact that they didn't represent (the genitals apparently, I don't know) of "women of color", trans folks, etc. You might think this sort of thing is just right wing talking points, people blowing something that happened out of proportion, but it's not..I actually see conversations like this on the regular and have had similar ones in person.

This is the kind of sharp debate and intellectual acumen one sees on the America left these days. "Resistance" indeed. The infantile level of politics on some areas of the liberal and self-declared progressive left here is really mind blowing, you can't fully understand it I don't think without being immersed in it, it is amazing.

So, Peterson is a doofus, but when held up next to people who wish to focus on issues such as racist and transphobic pussy hats, burritos and kimonos as "cultural appropriation" he looks like a frigging genius. It's a sad state of affairs:(
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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:57 pm

Okay, the dominant paradigm of the left, not the dominant paradigm per se.

I think the problem with the left in the US is that it is dominated by liberalism and that whole "sanctity of the individual", whereas here the left is dominated by socialism.

This trend was seen quite early in the piece, one can look (for example) at the difference between the individualist anarchism, influenced by people like Stirner, in comparison to the Makhnovists or the CNT. Even American nihilism tends to drift into existentialism, as opposed to Russian nihilism.

I guess this has to do with the crushing of the Wobblies and then the McCarthyist pogrom against Communists.

Europe had a strong Communist current which influenced the anti-Fascist national liberation movements too. That plus the proximity to the USSR and the Eastern Bloc played a role in shaping the European left.
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