Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:59 pm

That said, if you ever get yourself embroiled in a conversation with a Stalinist you may end up being thankful for the liberal bent of the American left.
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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:03 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:59 pm
That said, if you ever get yourself embroiled in a conversation with a Stalinist you may end up being thankful for the liberal bent of the American left.
Heh, nothing beats encounters with the Revolutionary Communist Party, the radical left that even the radical left loves to hate:)
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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Ricky » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:30 pm


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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:27 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:57 pm

I think the problem with the left in the US is that it is dominated by liberalism and that whole "sanctity of the individual", whereas here the left is dominated by socialism.
It's not a problem at all. It's a feature, not a bug.
Buddhahood in This Life
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[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by boda » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:46 pm

Ricky wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:30 pm
Look at what Peterson says at around 6:00, that Newman's ideological position is "radically Neo-Marxist postmodern." That's quite a leap, isn't it?

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:59 pm

We have two (at least) camps in the UK:

One camp insists that there is an entitlement due to them. In other words, they can have 10 years off for child-rearing and expect to rejoin the workforce at the seniority they would have been promoted to had they stayed in work. Some also insist that they should have the same pension etc etc.

The other camp has time off for child-rearing, is grateful for the financial support from the state they receive whilst doing so, and recognises that in returning to work they will pretty much pick up where they left off but may need training to be worth the same level of pay. For example, they may lack IT skills now necessary for their role.

I took early retirement. I don't expect my employer or the state to add 10 years of pension contributions for free, because I chose to do so. If I returned to work I would not expect to be promoted to the level I would be at had I not left 10 years ago.

Note that I have not mentioned gender. These days, aside from the first few weeks or months, time off for child rearing (or early retirement) is open to either gender.
This is not a Left or Right issue, surely, it is basic logic. Maybe I live in a weird place, but most women I know, if we have discussed it, recognise the choices and consequences. Maybe that is because they can afford to, but I am personally fed up with people screaming 'entitlement' when those who can take time off work for child-rearing are actually a very privileged minority.
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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by TharpaChodron » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:08 am

If any of you have heard about the recent "controversy" about Aziz Ansari, this skit was actually pretty funny regarding politically correct/walking on egg shell discussions of these sexuality/race etc issues in the US.


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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:42 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:08 am
If any of you have heard about the recent "controversy" about Aziz Ansari, this skit was actually pretty funny regarding politically correct/walking on egg shell discussions of these sexuality/race etc issues in the US.



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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:34 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:27 pm
It's not a problem at all. It's a feature, not a bug.
It's a problem because it loses sight of 80% of the problem (class politics). It is the reason why so much time and energy is wasted on identity politics.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by MiphamFan » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:46 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:34 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:27 pm
It's not a problem at all. It's a feature, not a bug.
It's a problem because it loses sight of 80% of the problem (class politics). It is the reason why so much time and energy is wasted on identity politics.
Good point. And I doubt it is really that much of a "feature" -- wasn't the whole focus on identity politics an outcome of the New Left which conciously rejected class politics in favour of identity politics?

The Communist Party of the USA had some interesting ideas back in the day. FDR just toned down socialism to make his own version of social democracy.

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:01 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:34 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:27 pm
It's not a problem at all. It's a feature, not a bug.
It's a problem because it loses sight of 80% of the problem (class politics). It is the reason why so much time and energy is wasted on identity politics.
Class politics are identity politics.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:58 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:01 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:34 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:27 pm
It's not a problem at all. It's a feature, not a bug.
It's a problem because it loses sight of 80% of the problem (class politics). It is the reason why so much time and energy is wasted on identity politics.
Class politics are identity politics.
Ummm... Yeah, right!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:35 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:58 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:01 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:34 am
It's a problem because it loses sight of 80% of the problem (class politics). It is the reason why so much time and energy is wasted on identity politics.
Class politics are identity politics.
Ummm... Yeah, right!
Well, in the US they are -- with roots dating back to the Colonial era when some people (whites) of the same class (poor) were given more rights than other poor people (blacks, natives) in order to split their power.

Further, the Socialist movement in the US largely failed because if identity (this is not well known). Prior to the first world war, the majority of Socialists in the US were German-speakers, and Socialist newspapers and so on across the US were published principally in German. Non-German speaking Socialists like Italians were completely marginalized in the US, and had little or no voice in the Socialist movement -- identity politics at work again.

Indeed, identity politics were at the root of the Italian Fascist Movement because of the failure of Socialism to deal with identity at all.\

Even as a class, identity politics are at work, with the notion of the proletariat, and so on.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:35 pm
Even as a class, identity politics are at work, with the notion of the proletariat, and so on.
No. A proletariat is defined by their relation to capital (the means of production).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:29 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:13 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:35 pm
Even as a class, identity politics are at work, with the notion of the proletariat, and so on.
No. A proletariat is defined by their relation to capital (the means of production).
Which is an identity, since that is how they are defined. The chief aim of Socialists was to awaken such people to their identity as the proletariat.

And not surprisingly, Socialists in the US consistently maintained/and still maintain that African Americans had/need to stuff their issues with racism and subordinate them to class interests. Not surprisingly, Socialism has never done all that well among African Americans.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:29 pm
Which is an identity, since that is how they are defined. The chief aim of Socialists was to awaken such people to their identity as the proletariat.
No. One can choose to identify with their class (or not), but somebody is a proletarian whether they identify with their relation to capital or not. It is the reason why white working class people are still proletariat, even if they are granted some advantages due to their skin colour. Even if they choose to support the capitalist class (cf Fascists). Regardless of whether they identify with other proletarians or not, they still do not own the means of production. That is the reality of a class view of politics.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Feminism, the "myth" of the gender pay gap and other left wing ideologies

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:04 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:35 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:29 pm
Which is an identity, since that is how they are defined. The chief aim of Socialists was to awaken such people to their identity as the proletariat.
No. One can choose to identify with their class (or not), but somebody is a proletarian whether they identify with their relation to capital or not. It is the reason why white working class people are still proletariat, even if they are granted some advantages due to their skin colour. Even if they choose to support the capitalist class (cf Fascists). Regardless of whether they identify with other proletarians or not, they still do not own the means of production. That is the reality of a class view of politics.
It is still just a label, and therefore an identity.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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