US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

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Snowbear
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Snowbear » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:44 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:39 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:30 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:27 pm
How?

Because you're ignoring the contingency of your own final vocabulary.
And you guys are not? Check how you sorted out for me, between yourselves, exactly what I need to do in order to adopt the correct (your) view.

:shrug:
...you were the one who brought up this discussion of conditioning vs reality in the first place (and, btw, placed yourself firmly in the latter camp while explaining it). :jumping:

In any case, the earliest shot fired was in the 1st page or so when you told Malcolm he was drunk from a Tsog because he didn't buy the Russian propaganda spin around Assad's attack. That's kind of a form of sleezely shoving opinions down someone's throat. :shrug:

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Grigoris
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Grigoris » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:53 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:44 pm
...you were the one who brought up this discussion of conditioning vs reality in the first place (and, btw, placed yourself firmly in the latter camp while explaining it). :jumping:

In any case, the earliest shot fired was in the 1st page or so when you told Malcolm he was drunk from a Tsog because he didn't buy the Russian propaganda spin around Assad's attack. That's kind of a form of sleezely shoving opinions down someone's throat. :shrug:
Actually, it was on page 2 and like I explained: it was a joke. Malcolm and I have been butting heads for almost a decade now and I can assure you that Malcolm does not need you for a lawyer. So quit the meta-discussion and get back to the bunfight.

And, please, try to answer to the points I am making. I have already explained my position two times, you have not answered to my explanations. Now I am starting to get the feeling that you are trolling. ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Snowbear
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Snowbear » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:54 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:53 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:44 pm
...you were the one who brought up this discussion of conditioning vs reality in the first place (and, btw, placed yourself firmly in the latter camp while explaining it). :jumping:

In any case, the earliest shot fired was in the 1st page or so when you told Malcolm he was drunk from a Tsog because he didn't buy the Russian propaganda spin around Assad's attack. That's kind of a form of sleezely shoving opinions down someone's throat. :shrug:
Actually, it was on page 2 and like I explained: it was a joke. Malcolm and I have been butting heads for almost a decade now and I ca assure you that Malcolm does not need you far a lawyer. So quit the meta-discussion and get back to the bunfight.

And, please, try to answer to the points I am making. I have already explained my position two times, you have not answered to my explanations. Now I am starting to get the feeling that you are trolling. ;)
Sure. Which points?

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Grigoris
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Grigoris » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:55 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:54 pm
Sure. Which points?
Right, this conversation is obviously over. Thanks for your time.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Snowbear
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Snowbear » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:57 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:55 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:54 pm
Sure. Which points?
Right, this conversation is obviously over. Thanks for your time.
Wait..WAIT...before you leave tell your boys in the Assad regime to wrap up their shenanigans and let the OPCW do their job. :rolling:

[But seriously, I'm not sure which points you are referring to. I'd like to discuss it.]
Last edited by Snowbear on Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ogyen
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Ogyen » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:11 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:53 pm
quit the meta-discussion and get back to the bunfight.
I knew it was time for more :popcorn: !!!
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The Heart Drive - nosce te ipsum

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

Snowbear
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Snowbear » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:17 pm

Ogyen wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:11 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:53 pm
quit the meta-discussion and get back to the bunfight.
I knew it was time for more :popcorn: !!!
The meta-discussion was important in the sense that when we catch ourselves seeing our opinions as mirroring reality more accurately than others, we need to pause and notice it.

The Dharma is actually very meta.

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Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:24 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:17 pm
Ogyen wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:11 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:53 pm
quit the meta-discussion and get back to the bunfight.
I knew it was time for more :popcorn: !!!
The meta-discussion was important in the sense that when we catch ourselves seeing our opinions as mirroring reality more accurately than others, we need to pause and question it.
I was basically just arguing that the Western Press is actually journalism, and not fascist propaganda like that generated by Syrian and Russian state media. For this I was attacked for indulging in my "white privilege," being an American (this charge is certainly true), and castigated for not understanding what it is like to be a target of racism (which is actually untrue).
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Snowbear
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Snowbear » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:35 pm

It's actually really cool that Grigoris is Greek and has a first-hand take on left wing Greek politics. Even cooler that he is willing to have discussions with us evil Americans. How many Greeks are interested (or have the English skills) in doing that?

While I'm not convinced that us Americans are the cause of the world's problems, one can't deny that Greeks are suffering and their gripes with the international world order are worth listening to.

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Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:44 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:35 pm
It's actually really cool that Grigoris is Greek and has a first-hand take on left wing Greek politics. Even cooler that he is willing to have discussions with us evil Americans. How many Greeks are interested (or have the English skills) in doing that?
We all appreciate his humanitarian work. As for his English, he is an Aussie.
While I'm not convinced that us Americans are the cause of the world's problems, one can't deny that Greeks are suffering and their gripes with the international world order are worth listening to.
The world is suffering. Everyone's position is impermanent, and this is the reason why I object to all this privilege rhetoric.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Ogyen
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Ogyen » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:18 pm

Regardless of the detours in this thread, I for one appreciate the various persepctives, because I am white (technically) but have never been perceived as such, and I totally understand Greg's points about having a "white privilege" I can't actually leverage because it's not white enough, and at least in exchange (on the flip side) it put me in positions where I can appreciate the intense pain being subjected to the butt-end of karma for those conditions. I also have no issue fully assuming the responsibility of my conditions of birth in a female disempowered status, and assuming the consequences of every decision I have made since. And I realize I am not common in this. Why? Because it is darn hard to face so much external injustice when you are just a kid born in a horrible place... But we have to look beyond appearances... And I'm far more interested in a conversation around the karmic nature of these international conflicts than our personal positions (biases) due to our own personal karmas...

I also agree with Malcolm completely because it does not have to be a sentence, and it has not been a sentence. I am living proof (yes, I know anecdotal and unreliable) because quite simply, I refused to make it such. I was educated in Europe, India, and in the US, and live in Central America... and the various persepctives all account for a grim world picture where corruption reigns in every government, for the very ripening karma that is coming to be in this time/space. I believe we as a people can get our smarts together and figure out things that bring a real benefit to others in our own cultivation of positive qualities.

I would love to hear more about that. How does karma get exhausted in entire cultures? Syria used to be a beautiful land. The culture has just as much layers and wealth as any other. And delicious food. How do usurpers like Assad not get repeated? How does a whole nation apply a J-Lo styled "Enough!" Like the Indians did to the Brits and booted them out?

I really appreciate the knowledge and questions posed here because I firmly stick to our condition not being a sentence but an opportunity to cultivate understanding and further real dialogue to encourage those like Greg who work with terrible situations, refugees trauma etc ...he has a job that probably would make most want to bash down the walls... I can understand the sensitivity he feels from the viewpoint of being down in the trenches to the words spoken by people who have a more "favorable karmic position" who speak as if those who are going thru it are "just paying for their suffering"...

While that is undoubtedly true, how can that information be translated and transmitted into a useful knowledge that is effective and gives tools to people... We here are just people who work in every field and every strata of society globally... We could cut some ego and some slack, and just understand this crap is hard to deal with up close and personal. Well, I would. And not get so damn legalistic about every word typed.

I think this is why most women in this forum flee these conversations, with so much chest banging, what's wrong with wanting others to just be kinder?

There is a lot of food for thought these exchanges provide, so go it as it may, "thanks for all the fish."

Thank you.
:meditate:
Last edited by Ogyen on Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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The Heart Drive - nosce te ipsum

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

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Ogyen
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Ogyen » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:44 pm
The world is suffering. Everyone's position is impermanent, and this is the reason why I object to all this privilege rhetoric.
YES!!!! Sensitivities should be noted... Indulging it as "real" is a waste of time. Up down we all go around on the wheel. :juggling:

Oh and I do not say that to dis disempowered positions. We need as much compassion as we can give to those who are suffering. There's just not enough to go around it seems... :crying:
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The Heart Drive - nosce te ipsum

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

tingdzin
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by tingdzin » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:21 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:44 pm
he world is suffering. Everyone's position is impermanent, and this is the reason why I object to all this privilege rhetoric.
:anjali:

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WuMing
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by WuMing » Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:26 pm

今以佛眼觀之佛與眾生同住解脫之床。無此無彼無二平等。
Now, observing with the eye of the Buddha, both the Buddha and ordinary beings are in the same liberated state. There is neither this nor that: there is only non-duality and identity.
- 空海 Kūkai in Unjigi 吽字義 The Meaning of the Letter Hūṃ
- Kūkai on the Philosophy of Language by Takagi Shingen and Dreitlein Eijō
_______
Śrī Singha said to Padmasambhava:
Since buddhas and sentient beings are inseparable and the same, it is necessary to respect all sentient beings as being on the same level with the buddhas. Can you?
- translated by Malcolm N. Smith

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Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:48 pm

WuMing wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:26 pm
here are two interesting articles by Paul Craig Roberts

Once Upon A Time Long Ago Truth Was Important

The Crisis Is Only In Its Beginning Stages
Deep state? This man just lost all credibility by defending Tucker Carlson, a hack of the first order.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Ogyen
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Ogyen » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:05 pm

Once Upon A Time Long Ago Truth Was Important by Paul Craig Roberts wrote: Today reporters no longer have to check sources, because there is no longer journalism in America. When the Clinton regime in compliance with the Deep State that made the Clintons super-rich permitted 90% of the independent and diverse US media to be concentrated in the hands of six political companies, pthat was the end of journalism in America.
Dunno about Deep State but this (bolded part) actually happened. This is history if anyone wants to look it up, you'll find this was a historic event which changed the way journalism is used. I remember because I was close to people up close and personal with this historic event. It was to them the moment they Titanic hit the iceberg. Sadly.

I get if it sounds crazy, but I remember this clearly happening at the time.
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The Heart Drive - nosce te ipsum

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

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Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:15 pm

Ogyen wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:05 pm
Once Upon A Time Long Ago Truth Was Important by Paul Craig Roberts wrote: Today reporters no longer have to check sources, because there is no longer journalism in America. When the Clinton regime in compliance with the Deep State that made the Clintons super-rich permitted 90% of the independent and diverse US media to be concentrated in the hands of six political companies, pthat was the end of journalism in America.
Dunno about Deep State but this (bolded part) actually happened. This is history if anyone wants to look it up, you'll find this was a historic event which changed the way journalism is used. I remember because I was close to people up close and personal with this historic event. It was to them the moment they Titanic hit the iceberg. Sadly.

I get if it sounds crazy, but I remember this clearly happening at the time.
People at the Times, Wapo, and even the WSJ still do their jobs in a proper way. The same is true of papers like London Times, Guardian, Le Monde and other papers if record. News does not come from TV. It also does not come from RT, etc.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Snowbear
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Snowbear » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:15 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:48 pm
WuMing wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:26 pm
here are two interesting articles by Paul Craig Roberts

Once Upon A Time Long Ago Truth Was Important

The Crisis Is Only In Its Beginning Stages
Deep state? This man just lost all credibility by defending Tucker Carlson, a hack of the first order.
Roberts is a Russian shill.

Snowbear
Posts: 117
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:41 am

Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Snowbear » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:54 pm

Ogyen wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:05 pm
Once Upon A Time Long Ago Truth Was Important by Paul Craig Roberts wrote: Today reporters no longer have to check sources, because there is no longer journalism in America. When the Clinton regime in compliance with the Deep State that made the Clintons super-rich permitted 90% of the independent and diverse US media to be concentrated in the hands of six political companies, pthat was the end of journalism in America.
Dunno about Deep State but this (bolded part) actually happened. This is history if anyone wants to look it up, you'll find this was a historic event which changed the way journalism is used. I remember because I was close to people up close and personal with this historic event. It was to them the moment they Titanic hit the iceberg. Sadly.

I get if it sounds crazy, but I remember this clearly happening at the time.
As for if it is fair to say that American journalism is less reliable and/or equivalent to Russia Today, or TASS, or PressTV, or CCTV, etc., you can decide that (I'm in the bold NO camp). Keep in mind, however, that moral equivalency has been a weapon used by autocracies against democracies for a very long time.

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WuMing
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by WuMing » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:38 pm

今以佛眼觀之佛與眾生同住解脫之床。無此無彼無二平等。
Now, observing with the eye of the Buddha, both the Buddha and ordinary beings are in the same liberated state. There is neither this nor that: there is only non-duality and identity.
- 空海 Kūkai in Unjigi 吽字義 The Meaning of the Letter Hūṃ
- Kūkai on the Philosophy of Language by Takagi Shingen and Dreitlein Eijō
_______
Śrī Singha said to Padmasambhava:
Since buddhas and sentient beings are inseparable and the same, it is necessary to respect all sentient beings as being on the same level with the buddhas. Can you?
- translated by Malcolm N. Smith

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