US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

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Ogyen
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Ogyen » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:34 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:26 pm
It never ceases to amaze me how people find it strange that 3 days after bombing a country, you would not be welcome in that country. I wonder what they expected? For the locals to roll out a red carpet and shower them with rose petals???
It is definitely painful. All around. No matter how you try to cut that cake.
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The Heart Drive - nosce te ipsum

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

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Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:35 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:22 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:18 pm
Bunch of socialist bullshit.
Well that is an intelligent comeback if I have ever seen one. Very similar to the type of response one would expect to receive on the Stormfront site (or any other alt-Right social network).

Talking about socialists: Roosevelt, now there was a socialist.
Roosevelt was not a socialist per se. He however understood the need for social security, etc., and set up social programs to support the elderly, small farms, etc.

What he did not do was set up a centralized, planned economy, which is characteristic of true (Marxist) Socialist governments in general, a model that has proven to be an utter and total failure.

By socialist bullshit, what I am referring to the kneejerk reaction to paint everything about the US in a negative light. It is characteristic of Socialist Newspapers in this country, who would not last five seconds elsewhere, people like Chomsky, etc. I am happy they voice their perspective because it necessary for them to speak freely so the terrible ideas they sometimes espouse can be torn apart and exposed. The same goes for the right. Sunlight is the best purifier. Fascist and socialist bullshit is all pretty much the same to me.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Grigoris » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:36 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:18 pm
We will agree to disagree on the value of the US Hegemony in world history.
Yes, I imagine we will. Just that here in Greece we are living the dream to the fullest: as the U$ aircraft carriers that launched the missile attacks refuel and re-supply in American bases in Greek ports, refugees fleeing the bombings arrive on our shores seeking protection. It's a grand situation!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Grigoris » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:35 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:22 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:18 pm
Bunch of socialist bullshit.
Well that is an intelligent comeback if I have ever seen one. Very similar to the type of response one would expect to receive on the Stormfront site (or any other alt-Right social network).

Talking about socialists: Roosevelt, now there was a socialist.
Roosevelt was not a socialist per se. He however understood the need for social security, etc., and set up social programs to support the elderly, small farms, etc.

What he did not do was set up a centralized, planned economy, which is characteristic of true (Marxist) Socialist governments in general, a model that has proven to be an utter and total failure.
There are levels of socialism, from authoritarian to democratic; from completely state controlled to mixed economies.
By socialist bullshit, what I am referring to the kneejerk reaction to paint everything about the US in a negative light. It is characteristic of Socialist Newspapers in this country, who would not last five seconds elsewhere, people like Chomsky, etc. I am happy they voice their perspective because it necessary for them to speak freely so the terrible ideas they sometimes espouse can be torn apart and exposed. The same goes for the right. Sunlight is the best purifier. Fascist and socialist bullshit is all pretty much the same to me.
phpBB [video]
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:42 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:36 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:18 pm
We will agree to disagree on the value of the US Hegemony in world history.
Yes, I imagine we will. Just that here in Greece we are living the dream to the fullest: as the U$ aircraft carriers that launched the missile attacks refuel and re-supply in American bases in Greek ports, refugees fleeing the bombings arrive on our shores seeking protection. It's a grand situation!
Let me outline the main difference between Fascist bullshit and Socialist bullshit for you:

Fascist bullshit always runs along the lines of: the Jews, The Mexicans, the Blacks, the [insert foreign bogeyman here] is causing all our problems.

Socialist bullshit always runs along the lines of: The Corporations, The Capitalists, the Man, the US, the Imperialists, the [insert systemic bogeyman here] is causing all our problems.

But its all bullshit because all of this does not involve an understanding of karma.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Snowbear
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Snowbear » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:45 pm

Ogyen wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:34 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:26 pm
It never ceases to amaze me how people find it strange that 3 days after bombing a country, you would not be welcome in that country. I wonder what they expected? For the locals to roll out a red carpet and shower them with rose petals???
It is definitely painful. All around. No matter how you try to cut that cake.
It's brilliant, really.

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Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:45 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:36 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:18 pm
We will agree to disagree on the value of the US Hegemony in world history.
Yes, I imagine we will. Just that here in Greece we are living the dream to the fullest: as the U$ aircraft carriers that launched the missile attacks refuel and re-supply in American bases in Greek ports, refugees fleeing the bombings arrive on our shores seeking protection. It's a grand situation!
If America did not provide security for NATO for the past 80 years, ya'll would have been Crimea on steroids back in Stalin's era.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:50 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:36 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:18 pm
We will agree to disagree on the value of the US Hegemony in world history.
Yes, I imagine we will. Just that here in Greece we are living the dream to the fullest: as the U$ aircraft carriers that launched the missile attacks refuel and re-supply in American bases in Greek ports, refugees fleeing the bombings arrive on our shores seeking protection. It's a grand situation!
Yup, Greece needs to get paid too (that is cynicism, in case you don't get it). They are after all part of NATO whether you personally like it or not. On the other hand:
Greece and Turkey Are Inching Toward War:

The relationship between Greece and Turkey has never been easy. The neighboring countries have been at war with each other several times in the 20th century and were close to military conflict over the Greek islet Imia in 1996, before the United States stepped in to avert disaster.

The NATO allies are now at the brink again, goaded by populists on both sides — and this time, Washington is nowhere to be found.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2018/04/18/gre ... oward-war/

And this situation is unfortunately the result of the idiot we have in office in the US.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Grigoris » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:45 pm
If America did not provide security for NATO for the past 80 years, ya'll would have been Crimea on steroids back in Stalin's era.
Maybe, maybe not. If you travel to former eastern bloc countries like Croatia or the Czech Republic (for example) you may be surprised with what you will see. Not all the former eastern bloc countries turned out like Bulgaria or Albania (which was aligned with China anyway, as was the former Yugoslavia).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Ogyen
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Ogyen » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:55 pm

:popcorn:
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The Heart Drive - nosce te ipsum

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

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Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:58 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:51 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:45 pm
If America did not provide security for NATO for the past 80 years, ya'll would have been Crimea on steroids back in Stalin's era.
Maybe, maybe not. If you travel to former eastern bloc countries like Croatia or the Czech Republic (for example) you may be surprised with what you will see. Not all the former eastern bloc countries turned out like Bulgaria or Albania (which was aligned with China anyway, as was the former Yugoslavia).
Umm, I know many, many people through the DC who were raised under Communism in the eastern bloc, they all report it was horrible.

In these countries, liquor stores outnumbered grocery stores 30 to 1, similar with the way it is in poorer parts of China today. Why? Drunks are easier to control.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Dan74 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:59 pm

Ogyen wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:55 pm
:popcorn:
:guns: :jedi: :techproblem:

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Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:04 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:59 pm
Ogyen wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:55 pm
:popcorn:
:guns: :jedi: :techproblem:
:buddha1: It is all just karma and the ripening of karma. Got great karma, you will be born in a wealthy first world family, free of war and conflict. If your past karma sucks, the slums of Mumbai. If you karma really sucks, Douma in Syria or [insert terrestrial hellhole here]. Is it a sentence? No. Is it "fair." No. But karma, while not "fair," is unerring. If one does not cultivate within oneself positive qualities, getting angry at the fact that others do not cater to one's moral outrage at the suffering in the world never earned anyone any merit any where ever. If we painted our political discussions in terms of karma and its ripening, these conversations would be very different, not so much filled with blame of others as sadness that karma is unerring and foolish sentient beings continue to just build more negative karma over time unless they meet the Buddha's path.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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cyril
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by cyril » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:34 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:58 pm

Umm, I know many, many people through the DC who were raised under Communism in the eastern bloc, they all report it was horrible.
The living standards within the Eastern Block actually varied from country to country. Citizens of Yugoslavia enjoyed way more freedoms and prosperity than the neighboring Romanians for example. They also varied in time; the 60's and 70's were good, the 50's and 80's were pretty shitty. But horrible is a pretty hard word, IMO.
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:58 pm
In these countries, liquor stores outnumbered grocery stores 30 to 1, similar with the way it is in poorer parts of China today. Why? Drunks are easier to control.
That's just not true. There were no liquor stores proper; you could buy booze from the grocery store. Then, especially in the 80's, there was actually a shortage of booze in these state-owned commercial outlets; during that period, moonshine operations mushroomed in the Soviet Union. If the government was directly interested in controlling people by means of alcohol, one would imagine that at least, they would ensure an adequate supply, right? That is, assuming that the official stance was just for facade :smile: .

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Ogyen
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Ogyen » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:30 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:04 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:59 pm
Ogyen wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:55 pm
:popcorn:
:guns: :jedi: :techproblem:
:buddha1: It is all just karma and the ripening of karma. Got great karma, you will be born in a wealthy first world family, free of war and conflict. If your past karma sucks, the slums of Mumbai. If you karma really sucks, Douma in Syria or [insert terrestrial hellhole here]. Is it a sentence? No. Is it "fair." No. But karma, while not "fair," is unerring. If one does not cultivate within oneself positive qualities, getting angry at the fact that others do not cater to one's moral outrage at the suffering in the world never earned anyone any merit any where ever. If we painted our political discussions in terms of karma and its ripening, these conversations would be very different, not so much filled with blame of others as sadness that karma is unerring and foolish sentient beings continue to just build more negative karma over time unless they meet the Buddha's path.
I fully agree with it all being karma ripening... and sometimes stating the facts just as they are, incurs the perception that it is an intellectual escape, a means to not have to be present with the horror and empathize at a deeply human level (I'm NOT at all implying that's how you're using this, I get and agree with your point, and am on board with the spirit in which you intend it).

In a sense, the lack of understanding of karma makes the sentence an empty one (no pun intended) even to practitioners who are cultivating the positive qualities within themselves, and I feel (I'm likely delusional) this thread could be a way for us to connect with the real issue around the confusion and outrage that takes hold when suffering this horrific presents itself on the world stage in the media, and you're absolutely correct, it is a ripening of a karma. However, no matter what name we give it, it sucks and it is just exponentially amplified more and more through its causes and the subsequent denials around its existence (by media, populations, opinions on the internet that don't utilize the shared space for productive discussion) only seem to perpetrate more suffering.

It gets overwhelming for individuals. I have friends who have family there who are terrified... I could not tell them, oh, I'm sorry, this is unerring karma that you are from there and your family is there. While wholly accurate, I guarantee it would NOT be effective in connecting people with at a feeling/gut level, who only want to suffer less.

So to your point, I would love to see this discussion (and many others) taken from the standpoint you propose, one of understanding the nature, the causes and the release of suffering, because the reality of what is currently happening is:

- there are contradictory news releases around the facts, one DOES have to dig their worms to find credible sources, and even then there are unfounded assertions we make as humans
- there is immense suffering in this whole conflict that spans back to the Sumerians, but in more recent times several decades (5?)
- there are conflicts of interest in the media on what stories to spin in relation to which points (we all live in different countries, the cultural perceptions DO vary)
- more suffering is happening on the geopolitical stage (more karma ripening)
- there are people on this board who really care (regardless of their ability to convey that or not), and while it's convenient to get frustrated with the point of view of another we're talking to, it misses the point entirely.

Now can we have a discussion about this in terms of karma from conditions ripening...? What would that look like?

:coffee:
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The Heart Drive - nosce te ipsum

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

PeterC
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by PeterC » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:00 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:58 pm
In these countries, liquor stores outnumbered grocery stores 30 to 1, similar with the way it is in poorer parts of China today. Why? Drunks are easier to control.
Nowhere in China will you find that, apart perhaps from a small district in the village of Maotai.

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Snowbear
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Snowbear » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:26 am

...and meanwhile OPCW waits outside Douma.

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Last edited by Snowbear on Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

pothigai
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by pothigai » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:33 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:42 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:36 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:18 pm
We will agree to disagree on the value of the US Hegemony in world history.
Yes, I imagine we will. Just that here in Greece we are living the dream to the fullest: as the U$ aircraft carriers that launched the missile attacks refuel and re-supply in American bases in Greek ports, refugees fleeing the bombings arrive on our shores seeking protection. It's a grand situation!
Let me outline the main difference between Fascist bullshit and Socialist bullshit for you:

Fascist bullshit always runs along the lines of: the Jews, The Mexicans, the Blacks, the [insert foreign bogeyman here] is causing all our problems.

Socialist bullshit always runs along the lines of: The Corporations, The Capitalists, the Man, the US, the Imperialists, the [insert systemic bogeyman here] is causing all our problems.

But its all bullshit because all of this does not involve an understanding of karma.
Would you also say that liberalism and conservatism are bullshit because they don't involve an understanding of karma?
ہستی اپنی حباب کی سی ہے
یہ نمائش سراب کی سی ہے

hasti apni habaab ki si hai
yeh numaaish saraab ki si hai

Like a bubble is your existence
This display is like an illusion

- Mir Taqi Mir (1725-1810)

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Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:34 am

PeterC wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:00 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:58 pm
In these countries, liquor stores outnumbered grocery stores 30 to 1, similar with the way it is in poorer parts of China today. Why? Drunks are easier to control.
Nowhere in China will you find that, apart perhaps from a small district in the village of Maotai.
Or the city of Xining, in which I spent many months.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:34 am

pothigai wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:33 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:42 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:36 pm
Yes, I imagine we will. Just that here in Greece we are living the dream to the fullest: as the U$ aircraft carriers that launched the missile attacks refuel and re-supply in American bases in Greek ports, refugees fleeing the bombings arrive on our shores seeking protection. It's a grand situation!
Let me outline the main difference between Fascist bullshit and Socialist bullshit for you:

Fascist bullshit always runs along the lines of: the Jews, The Mexicans, the Blacks, the [insert foreign bogeyman here] is causing all our problems.

Socialist bullshit always runs along the lines of: The Corporations, The Capitalists, the Man, the US, the Imperialists, the [insert systemic bogeyman here] is causing all our problems.

But its all bullshit because all of this does not involve an understanding of karma.
Would you also say that liberalism and conservatism are bullshit because they don't involve an understanding of karma?
Oh absolutely.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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