US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

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Grigoris
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Grigoris » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:55 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:51 pm
Uh, huh...your hand waving to transform your POV into "reality" is noted.
So you are positing a nihilist position then?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:57 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:54 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:49 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:39 pm
Ummmm... No. If you ask a victim of racism whether they perceive a difference between what YOU describe as "simple" and systemic racism, well, I won't talk on their behalf. Go and do it yourself and see what the answer will be.
Man, it is not my problem if you do not want look past your conditioning to see the reality of your position in society. I can't force you to do that. It is not something personal against you, it is a white thing.
Pathetic and trite.

I try to constantly check my privilege as a Greek living in Greece. It is pernicious and a easy role to slip into, especially when I have to deal with refugees to Greece (which I do on a daily basis). Some people ignore the power their position affords them and just go about their business as usual, whilst unknowingly riding roughshod over the "others". Other people take advantage of it and use it to bolster their position of advantage and compensate for their lack of power as the lowest Greek members of Greek society (racists, neo-Nazi types, frothing nationalists, etc...). Some maintain their position of power and use this to play the role of the great humanitarian saviors. Etc...
This is all such incredible bullshit. You are entitled to believe it. I don't. It has nothing to do with Dharma and is not a Dharma view.
But it is not a personal attack. Trust me.
Yes, which is exactly what Bolsheviks said to their victims as they were gunning them down. At least Fascists are more honest in their hatred.
Well you convinced me of the veracity of your view using your finely honed argument consisting of appeals to authority, ad hom and reductio ad stalinum (that's the McCarthyist version of reductio as hitlerum).
The only person here that has been making ad hom arguments is you. This is in fact your general approach to people on the forum. Its abusive.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Snowbear
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Snowbear » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:58 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:55 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:51 pm
Uh, huh...your hand waving to transform your POV into "reality" is noted.
So you are positing a nihilist position then?
When did being humble about one's opinions become nihilism? I feel like you're trolling.

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Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:01 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:58 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:55 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:51 pm
Uh, huh...your hand waving to transform your POV into "reality" is noted.
So you are positing a nihilist position then?
When did being humble about one's opinions become nihilism? I feel like you're trolling.
Grigoris is best ignored. When you respond to him, like clockwork he resorts to personal attacks.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Grigoris » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:01 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:57 pm
The only person here that has been making ad hom arguments is you. This is in fact your general approach to people on the forum. Its abusive.
I am going to say it one more time: I am not making personal attacks against you.

Now you are resorting to red herrings.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:02 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:01 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:57 pm
The only person here that has been making ad hom arguments is you. This is in fact your general approach to people on the forum. Its abusive.
I am going to say it one more time: I am not making personal attacks against you.
Yes, which is what the Klansman told the African American -- "It isn't personal, friend, we just lynch everyone who looks like you."
An attack is an attack, it does not really matter whether it is intended to be "personal." You constantly attack myself and others on the forum with whom you have political differences for being white, for being American, Anglo, etc. Everyone knows that you do this. The only person blind to it is you, because your level of aggression and self-righteousness has led you to believe this is acceptable behavior. Keep it up and I will lodge a formal complaint.
Last edited by Malcolm on Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Grigoris » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:04 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:58 pm
When did being humble about one's opinions become nihilism? I feel like you're trolling.
I'm sorry... I made a statement and you responded to the statement. Your response seemed to me to be positing a nihilist position. All I said is that there is a conditioned reality and recognising how it is conditioned is the way to see it for what it really is. This is pretty much a standard Buddhist viewpoint. You disagree with this view?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Snowbear
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Snowbear » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:05 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:04 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:58 pm
When did being humble about one's opinions become nihilism? I feel like you're trolling.
I'm sorry... I made a statement and you responded to the statement. Your response seemed to me to be positing a nihilist position. All I said is that there is a conditioned reality and recognising how it is conditioned is the way to see it for what it really is. This is pretty much a standard Buddhist viewpoint. You disagree with this view?
You are indirectly saying here that your POV has risen above the conditioning, but other's (who don't agree with you) haven't.

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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Ogyen » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:06 pm

So as someone who has been helped immensely in the last decade/plus by both of you personally (and I'm sure I'm not unique in this), Malcolm and Grigoris - I want y'all to know we (I) immensely appreciate your hearts and what you individually bring to the table with your wealth of knowledge and life experience. No matter what words are being exchanged in this moment, this needs to be said.

Greg... I am constantly amazed at your tenacity in the face of so much painful adversity and your profound devotion and caring to living your practice day in and day out, so much you went where you could make a difference for people like refugees. This speaks volumes about your character.

And Malcolm.. you do the exact same thing, and if people haven't thanked you enough for the total devotion you have to dedicating your life to the Buddhadharma, and the well-being of others, well on their behalf, thank you.

Is personalizing this discussion really relevant? I mean... If you like it.. go ahead. But it misses the point of the stupendous amount of wisdom you both have brought to different people at different times... I for one never forget (as I have in my signature).

To me you are both living bodhisattvas with so much to teach to those who are seeking for genuine answers. It hurts me as a reader and Sangha sister to read words borne of frustration (which is not even with each other here, but with things so much bigger than our ability to reach) that distract from what you're really about and all the good you do.... I always have that present with both of you, and as noted previously, I'm sure I'm not unique (sorry for the anecdotal evidence Greg, I got no stats on this one...)

:group:

:meditate:
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The Heart Drive - nosce te ipsum

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

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Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:10 pm

Ogyen wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:06 pm

Is personalizing this discussion really relevant?
Of course it isn't, which is why when Greg goes this route it is completely unproductive. And quite frankly, every damn time this kind of loggerhead happens here, it is because Greg shoots off his mouth about someone being white, American, etc., as if this disqualifies their POV. That logical fallacy is called "poisoning the well."
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Grigoris » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:15 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:05 pm
You are indirectly saying here that your POV has risen above the conditioning, but other's (who don't agree with you) haven't.
I am saying that our conditioning influences our views. Having been conditioned outside of the particular view it is easier for me to see it's effect and then try to use this to not replicate the same mistakes. I fail to see what is so radical about what I am saying.

To bring it back to the previous discussion: a person that has been on the receiving end of racism is more capable of seeing the subtler elements of racism when they are put in the position where they can be a racist. The opposite is true too: if you take a racist out of their position of power and put them in a social situation where they are on the receiving end, it may help them reassess their own views of racism too.

People in positions of power are just as trapped in their roles as the people on the receiving end of their power. We see this with sentient beings born into God realms, where their positive living conditions make them incapable of contemplating suffering and thus unable to achieve liberation. It is a more amplified version of the mechanics/effects of inequality which we live out in the human realm.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Snowbear
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Snowbear » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:18 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:15 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:05 pm
You are indirectly saying here that your POV has risen above the conditioning, but other's (who don't agree with you) haven't.
I am saying that our conditioning influences our views. Having been conditioned outside of the particular view it is easier for me to see it's effect and then try to use this to not replicate the same mistakes.
...but you're positing yourself in a more advantageous position. The only value of bringing this up in this thread is to validate your POV as "closer to how things really are" and putting your opponents in this discussion at a disadvantage of being unwittingly bogged down by their "conditioning."
I fail to see what is so radical about what I am saying.
It's not radical. It's just a cheap debate tactic. You're hand waving and we see it.

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Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:20 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:15 pm
It is a more amplified version of the mechanics/effects of inequality which we live out in the human realm.
Inequality will never be solved by external impositions of power on social relations. It is a result of karma, plain and simple. Of course we do not leave things in this way, we try to provide means for the less fortunate and so on; but there is no social theory, no theory of government, that will eliminate inequality in any absolute way.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:21 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:18 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:15 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:05 pm
You are indirectly saying here that your POV has risen above the conditioning, but other's (who don't agree with you) haven't.
I am saying that our conditioning influences our views. Having been conditioned outside of the particular view it is easier for me to see it's effect and then try to use this to not replicate the same mistakes.
...but you're positing yourself in a more advantageous position.

We call this, "Socialist privilege."
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Snowbear
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Snowbear » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:21 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:18 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:15 pm
I am saying that our conditioning influences our views. Having been conditioned outside of the particular view it is easier for me to see it's effect and then try to use this to not replicate the same mistakes.
...but you're positing yourself in a more advantageous position.

We call this, "Socialist privilege."
Yep, always the self-righteous types.

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Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:25 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:23 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:21 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:18 pm


...but you're positing yourself in a more advantageous position.

We call this, "Socialist privilege."
Yep, always the self-righteous types.
If only Grigoris would read Rawls as well as Nozick's Anarchy, State, and Utopia.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Snowbear
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Snowbear » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:26 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:25 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:23 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:21 pm



We call this, "Socialist privilege."
Yep, always the self-righteous types.
If only Grigoris would read Rawls as well as Nozick's Anarchy, State, and Utopia.
Throw in Richard Rorty too.

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Grigoris
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Grigoris » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:27 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:18 pm
...but you're positing yourself in a more advantageous position. The only value of bringing this up in this thread is to validate your POV as "closer to how things really are" and putting your opponents in this discussion at a disadvantage of being unwittingly bogged down by their "conditioning."
We all have different vantage points ()based on experiences) from which we view events and circumstances. Sometimes these vantage points are useful, sometimes they are detrimental. One would hope that, as Buddhists, when somebody points out a negative characteristic arsing from our conditioning (social in this instance) that instead of taking it as a personal attack we take it as an opportunity to reassess our view and behaviour for the benefit of all involved. What I have been saying so far is not an attack on Malcolm, it is an analysis of how white privilege works. It is not an attempt to poison the well, it is an attempt to explain things from a different vantage point, a vantage point not coloured by a certain type of conditioning. Am I taking advantage of my position as a staff member to put across a point of view that is generally stifled or swept under the rug? Possibly. If I am doing so, it is not intentionally. I would put across the same view, even if I was not a staff member.
It's not radical. It's just a cheap debate tactic. You're simply hand waving.
How?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Snowbear
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Snowbear » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:30 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:27 pm
How?

Because you're ignoring the contingency of your own final vocabulary.

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Grigoris
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Grigoris » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:39 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:30 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:27 pm
How?

Because you're ignoring the contingency of your own final vocabulary.
And you guys are not? Check how you sorted out for me, between yourselves, exactly what I need to do in order to adopt the correct (your) view.

:shrug:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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