Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

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Grigoris
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Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

Post by Grigoris » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:34 pm

Tiago Simões wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:26 pm
As long as the world doesn't forget that N. Korea has concentration camps... :roll:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_ ... te_prisons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... al_prisons

For a grand total (in 2013) of 2,220,300 prisoners, with Black and Hispanic people making up 59% of the prison population (but only 29% of the total population of the U$).

So much for North Korean concentration camps.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Korean War Over?

Post by TharpaChodron » Tue May 01, 2018 3:33 am

Concentration camps aren't really the same as prisons. You can argue about the injustices and disparity in US prison populations, but that still doesn't make them "concentration camps." I think most Nazi concentration camp victims and other political prisoners would feel insulted to compare their experience to the gang life prison world of US prisons, where most often people are there because they did commit an actual crime.

anyhow :focus:

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Re: Korean War Over?

Post by shaunc » Tue May 01, 2018 8:40 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:56 pm
Depends on who won.

Were they wearing white hats, or black hats?
The winners always wear white hats, as it's the winners that get to write the history.
In my opinion the end of any war is a good thing.

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Re: Korean War Over?

Post by shaunc » Tue May 01, 2018 8:42 am

:good:
TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 3:33 am
Concentration camps aren't really the same as prisons. You can argue about the injustices and disparity in US prison populations, but that still doesn't make them "concentration camps." I think most Nazi concentration camp victims and other political prisoners would feel insulted to compare their experience to the gang life prison world of US prisons, where most often people are there because they did commit an actual crime.

anyhow :focus:

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Re: Korean War Over?

Post by Grigoris » Tue May 01, 2018 8:51 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 3:33 am
Concentration camps aren't really the same as prisons. You can argue about the injustices and disparity in US prison populations, but that still doesn't make them "concentration camps." I think most Nazi concentration camp victims and other political prisoners would feel insulted to compare their experience to the gang life prison world of US prisons, where most often people are there because they did commit an actual crime.

anyhow :focus:
Being poor, Black or Hispanic is a crime?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Korean War Over?

Post by amanitamusc » Tue May 01, 2018 9:48 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 8:51 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 3:33 am
Concentration camps aren't really the same as prisons. You can argue about the injustices and disparity in US prison populations, but that still doesn't make them "concentration camps." I think most Nazi concentration camp victims and other political prisoners would feel insulted to compare their experience to the gang life prison world of US prisons, where most often people are there because they did commit an actual crime.

anyhow :focus:
Being poor, Black or Hispanic is a crime?
No not a crime but your chances of going to prison in the usa are very high if you fall into these three .
I see orange suits working throughout Az for 50 cents per hour . Who knows what the prisons make from
this slave labor.
I have only seen one white the rest were black or brown.

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Re: Korean War Over?

Post by DharmaN00b » Tue May 01, 2018 11:34 am

I was under the impression that- in order for a Racket to work effectively- an exchange or use of arms is in order? ! :?

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Re: Korean War Over?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue May 01, 2018 6:15 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 8:51 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 3:33 am
Concentration camps aren't really the same as prisons. You can argue about the injustices and disparity in US prison populations, but that still doesn't make them "concentration camps." I think most Nazi concentration camp victims and other political prisoners would feel insulted to compare their experience to the gang life prison world of US prisons, where most often people are there because they did commit an actual crime.

anyhow :focus:
Being poor, Black or Hispanic is a crime?
I work with prisoners and felons here regularly. While indeed there is serious racial and deep class disparity in the justice system here (in fact, that doesn't even touch the tip of the iceberg - it's abhorrent), a good number of them are in fact guilty of various crimes.
Now, whether or not they can be held culpable for these crimes, or whether their "crimes" merited incarceration is another story entirely. But yeah, lots of people in prison did in fact commit crimes of some sort. That includes blacks and hispanics.

Surely there are a percentage who are completely innocent (they all say they are!), but I can tell you from personal experience that a number of felons are fully guilty of what they were placed in prison for, whether or not incarceration makes sense in the first place, which it often does not. The kind of sentences, the criminalization of drug use, the class and racial disparities are a huge deal, one shouldn't minimize those.. but the idea that there's this large chunk of people locked up here with no connection to committing crimes simply doesn't match reality. People commit crimes when they have few other options, It ain't rocket surgery.

Some states and localities are moving towards community custody and things like Drug Courts, it still is massively unfair in some ways, but it's much better than incarceration and produces better outcomes.

Prisons also vary massively by state, in some states they practically do resemble camps, in more progressive states the prisoners have reasonable access to education, assistance upon getting out, and people within the system advocating for their rights as prisoners. Even these states seem to use them for nearly free labor though, which is disgusting.
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Re: Korean War Over?

Post by The Cicada » Tue May 01, 2018 7:25 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 8:51 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 3:33 am
Concentration camps aren't really the same as prisons. You can argue about the injustices and disparity in US prison populations, but that still doesn't make them "concentration camps." I think most Nazi concentration camp victims and other political prisoners would feel insulted to compare their experience to the gang life prison world of US prisons, where most often people are there because they did commit an actual crime.

anyhow :focus:
Being poor, Black or Hispanic is a crime?
Yeah, staying out of prison can really be a full-time occupation for some of us depending on where you're at. Personally, I "pass" in some places but not in others. It's a complicated issue.

Drinking sweet tea helps.

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Re: Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

Post by Queequeg » Tue May 01, 2018 8:25 pm

The Cicada wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 7:25 pm
Drinking sweet tea helps.
:rolling:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
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Re: Korean War Over?

Post by TharpaChodron » Wed May 02, 2018 4:17 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 8:51 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 3:33 am
Concentration camps aren't really the same as prisons. You can argue about the injustices and disparity in US prison populations, but that still doesn't make them "concentration camps." I think most Nazi concentration camp victims and other political prisoners would feel insulted to compare their experience to the gang life prison world of US prisons, where most often people are there because they did commit an actual crime.

anyhow :focus:
Being poor, Black or Hispanic is a crime?
There are plenty of black, hispanic and poor people here who don't go to prison because they are law abiding. Even the Mexican Mafia was created as a way for some people to foolishly believe they were "taking over" the California prison system. About the worst idea ever in history...

Do you really think most prisoners in the US are political prisoners who are incarcerated despite their innocence? I advocate for a better way to rehabilitate and amend
societies ills, but I wouldn't naively claim they never did their crimes.



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Re: Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

Post by Bristollad » Thu May 03, 2018 8:34 am

And now a group of republicans have nominated Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize...you've got to hand it to script writers for this presidential soap opera, they know how to maintain the audience's attention. Wonder what they are really distracting us from?

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Re: Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 03, 2018 9:30 am

Bristollad wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 8:34 am
And now a group of republicans have nominated Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize...you've got to hand it to script writers for this presidential soap opera, they know how to maintain the audience's attention. Wonder what they are really distracting us from?
Obama got a Nobel Peace Prize and he started the war in Syria, so why not give one to Trump?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Korean War Over?

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 03, 2018 9:51 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 4:17 am
Do you really think most prisoners in the US are political prisoners who are incarcerated despite their innocence?
Yes I do. Poverty in the U$ is a political condition. Being the victim of a racist economic and legal system, is a political condition. Crimes linked to poverty are due to political conditions.

How many, for example, crooked bankers and politicians that extorted millions are in jail?

You cannot separate economics and politics.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

Post by Tiago Simões » Thu May 03, 2018 10:43 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 9:30 am
Bristollad wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 8:34 am
And now a group of republicans have nominated Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize...you've got to hand it to script writers for this presidential soap opera, they know how to maintain the audience's attention. Wonder what they are really distracting us from?
Obama got a Nobel Peace Prize and he started the war in Syria, so why not give one to Trump?
Receiving a Nobel Peace Prize comes with the job.
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
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Re: Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

Post by Bristollad » Thu May 03, 2018 4:39 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 9:30 am
Bristollad wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 8:34 am
And now a group of republicans have nominated Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize...you've got to hand it to script writers for this presidential soap opera, they know how to maintain the audience's attention. Wonder what they are really distracting us from?
Obama got a Nobel Peace Prize and he started the war in Syria, so why not give one to Trump?
In that sense, yeah why not. I never understood what Obama was nominated for. It seemed like he got it because he was the first POC POTUS which though important wasn't reason for a Nobel prize. Now a prize for tweeting without thinking would be a natural fit for Trump.

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Re: Korean War Over?

Post by Queequeg » Thu May 03, 2018 5:24 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 9:51 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 4:17 am
Do you really think most prisoners in the US are political prisoners who are incarcerated despite their innocence?
Yes I do. Poverty in the U$ is a political condition. Being the victim of a racist economic and legal system, is a political condition. Crimes linked to poverty are due to political conditions.

How many, for example, crooked bankers and politicians that extorted millions are in jail?

You cannot separate economics and politics.
I agree with the last part of your statement.

I also agree with the gist of your question about bankers and politicians, though I'm not sure their crimes can be described as extortion. Fraud, insider trading, larceny... maybe some RICO charges... that's where I'd start.

Supposing your premise is true - that poverty is a political condition. That doesn't make crimes like assault, rape and murder political crimes. There are a lot of steps that have to go wrong before poverty leads to criminal life style. It doesn't account for law abiding people in those same neighborhoods.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

Post by Mantrik » Thu May 03, 2018 6:31 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:34 pm
Tiago Simões wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:26 pm
As long as the world doesn't forget that N. Korea has concentration camps... :roll:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_ ... te_prisons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... al_prisons

For a grand total (in 2013) of 2,220,300 prisoners, with Black and Hispanic people making up 59% of the prison population (but only 29% of the total population of the U$).

So much for North Korean concentration camps.

Has anyone actually answered the point about the N Korean concentration camps which prompted the creation of this thread, I assume?

I know naff all about them so it would be good to have some info.

And just to wind you up - it is notable in the UK that police 'stop and search' is targeted at young black males. It is nowt to do with poverty or lack of aspiration which makes them commit the most crime - just gangsta stupidity and greed.

In fact it is poor white males in the UK whose aspiration and attainment is lowest in the UK. However, I won't grant any UK group the excuse that poverty causes their crime - their 'poverty' is not starvation and oppression, as experienced by previous generations, it is jealousy and a feeling of 'entitlement' that makes them grab your iPhone, deal drugs or wreck your car. I daresay the same is partially true in the US - gangs, drugs and easy money are more easily sustained in ghettos, especially where they are 'no go' for the police.
Last edited by Mantrik on Thu May 03, 2018 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

Post by DharmaN00b » Thu May 03, 2018 6:32 pm

One rule for joe and another rule for jack, double standards and cognitive dissonance. For example violence is publicly condoned but privately sanctioned. Just make the language nicer or not nicer.

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Re: Korean War Over?

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 03, 2018 7:00 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 5:24 pm
Supposing your premise is true - that poverty is a political condition.
Of course it is true, economies are political and social phenomena/entities too.
That doesn't make crimes like assault, rape and murder political crimes.
Rape is definitely a political crime. Just the "wrong" type of politics. Assault and murder may or may not be political crimes.
There are a lot of steps that have to go wrong before poverty leads to criminal life style. It doesn't account for law abiding people in those same neighborhoods.
There are other factors at play too. Of course. But it would be ludicrous to say that poverty is not the main one.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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