Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

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Queequeg
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Re: Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

Post by Queequeg » Thu May 03, 2018 7:19 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 6:31 pm
Has anyone actually answered the point about the N Korean concentration camps which prompted the creation of this thread, I assume?
Well, one person's work camp might be another's concentration camp.

There are actual gulag type places for counterrevolutionaries and the like. There is also a lot of forced labor. People get assigned to work in coal mines or on farms.

In a totalitarian state, there may not be that much difference between a free citizen and someone sentenced to hard labor in the countryside.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
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Re: Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 03, 2018 8:31 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 7:19 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 6:31 pm
Has anyone actually answered the point about the N Korean concentration camps which prompted the creation of this thread, I assume?
Well, one person's work camp might be another's concentration camp.

There are actual gulag type places for counterrevolutionaries and the like. There is also a lot of forced labor. People get assigned to work in coal mines or on farms.

In a totalitarian state, there may not be that much difference between a free citizen and someone sentenced to hard labor in the countryside.
Ummmm... prisoners in the U$ are also forced to work.

Now, of course, that does not excuse what is happening in North Korea. But one should not be blind as to what is happening in their own backyard. If one is going to level criticism at North Korea on the basis of... then one should also level criticism at their own country on the same basis.

Good for the goose, good for the gander.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: Korean War Over?

Post by Queequeg » Thu May 03, 2018 9:09 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 7:00 pm
Rape is definitely a political crime.
I think you need to explain that. I don't see how, say, date rape is a political crime. I don't see how forcible rape of a stranger is per se a political crime. I am aware that Eldridge Cleaver claimed that when he raped white women he did so for political reasons, and I'm aware of rape as genocide... I'm having trouble with the generalization.
There are a lot of steps that have to go wrong before poverty leads to criminal life style. It doesn't account for law abiding people in those same neighborhoods.
There are other factors at play too. Of course. But it would be ludicrous to say that poverty is not the main one.
[/quote]

"Poverty" is a very broad concept. It applies in a lot of very dissimilar situations. This is why I premised my comment with the assumption that poverty is a function of politics. I suppose we can define it that way, and I agree in many situations, politics do play a significant part. I just don't buy into your hard and fast categories.

If you're premise is correct, it should follow that with a change of politics, poverty should be eliminated. I don't know if we have any examples of that happening.
Grigoris wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 8:31 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 7:19 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 6:31 pm
Has anyone actually answered the point about the N Korean concentration camps which prompted the creation of this thread, I assume?
Well, one person's work camp might be another's concentration camp.

There are actual gulag type places for counterrevolutionaries and the like. There is also a lot of forced labor. People get assigned to work in coal mines or on farms.

In a totalitarian state, there may not be that much difference between a free citizen and someone sentenced to hard labor in the countryside.
Ummmm... prisoners in the U$ are also forced to work.

Now, of course, that does not excuse what is happening in North Korea. But one should not be blind as to what is happening in their own backyard. If one is going to level criticism at North Korea on the basis of... then one should also level criticism at their own country on the same basis.

Good for the goose, good for the gander.
This is misdirected at me. I didn't criticize N. Korea because they have concentration camps or work camps or whatever semantics we want to apply to their situation. Neither am I ignoring the problem of unconscionably high incarceration rates in the US.

Easy, easy.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Korean War Over?

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 03, 2018 10:30 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 9:09 pm
I think you need to explain that. I don't see how, say, date rape is a political crime. I don't see how forcible rape of a stranger is per se a political crime. I am aware that Eldridge Cleaver claimed that when he raped white women he did so for political reasons, and I'm aware of rape as genocide... I'm having trouble with the generalization.
Rape is a political act that reinforces patriarchy, not all political acts are liberatory.
If you're premise is correct, it should follow that with a change of politics, poverty should be eliminated. I don't know if we have any examples of that happening.
Really???

Anyway... Would you say that a minimum wage for all would be a political act?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Korean War Over?

Post by Queequeg » Thu May 03, 2018 11:27 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 10:30 pm
Rape is a political act that reinforces patriarchy, not all political acts are liberatory.
Uh... Your definitions are very broad. I'll have leave you to them.
If you're premise is correct, it should follow that with a change of politics, poverty should be eliminated. I don't know if we have any examples of that happening.
Really???

Anyway... Would you say that a minimum wage for all would be a political act?
[/quote]

I don't know what you mean. Many jurisdictions that have segments of the population that meet various definitions of poverty also have minimum wages. Do you mean universal income?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri May 04, 2018 1:30 am

It does a grave injustice to the oppressed people of this country to take away their autonomy by pretending that they are wholly unable to change, and "the system" is so responsible for their present predicament to the extent that their individual situation cannot change without a a wholesale change to the system. In fact, a wholesale change to this system is only possible with their participation, their desire to be something more than victims, and to speak with their own voices in advocating and fighting for themselves..

I work and volunteer with felons and prisoners regularly, and I have come to believe that the sometimes shallow way of viewing people in such situations as merely "victims of the system" takes away their autonomy not only to change their own situations, but also to advocate for themselves effectively when it is possible to do so.

The fact is that most criminals (with the exception of the straight up falsely accused) ARE in fact conditioned very much to be criminals, which involves varying degrees of antisocial behavior, addiction, etc. While they certainly cannot be blamed for the situations they are often born and classed into, many of them will quite openly admit that there was an element of choice in their paths, the fact is that there are many of their counterparts of whatever demographic (race, class etc.) who did not take the same path attests to the fact that no one is a completely helpless victim, and being oppressed does not grant one license for shit behavior, in particular shit behavior which quite often hurts others in the same oppressed group the most. Add to this the fact that many advocates from these same communities chose a less self-serving, often more difficult path than those who chose to engage in the drug culture, etc. I agree that many of them should not be in jail period, but the idea that they are simply innocents doesn't square with reality.

I think we can acknowledge that the system in the US is grossly unfair and drives people (especially black people, but also anyone in the penal system with no money) to ruinous situations without turning individuals into caricatures that are unable to think or advocate for themselves, or unable to gain awareness of their own conditioning as criminals. This is a conclusion I have come to from actually talking to felons and prisoners, many of whom have made real efforts to move past their own conditioning, and do -not- seem to appreciate being viewed solely as victims - even when they know very well the unfair situations they often face.
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Re: Korean War Over?

Post by Grigoris » Fri May 04, 2018 7:59 am

Queequeg wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 11:27 pm
Uh... Your definitions are very broad. I'll have leave you to them.
Patriarchy is not a political system?
I don't know what you mean. Many jurisdictions that have segments of the population that meet various definitions of poverty also have minimum wages. Do you mean universal income?
Sorry, yes, I mean a universal income.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

Post by Grigoris » Fri May 04, 2018 8:03 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 1:30 am
It does a grave injustice to the oppressed people of this country to take away their autonomy by pretending that they are wholly unable to change, and "the system" is so responsible for their present predicament to the extent that their individual situation cannot change without a a wholesale change to the system. In fact, a wholesale change to this system is only possible with their participation, their desire to be something more than victims, and to speak with their own voices in advocating and fighting for themselves..

I work and volunteer with felons and prisoners regularly, and I have come to believe that the sometimes shallow way of viewing people in such situations as merely "victims of the system" takes away their autonomy not only to change their own situations, but also to advocate for themselves effectively when it is possible to do so.

The fact is that most criminals (with the exception of the straight up falsely accused) ARE in fact conditioned very much to be criminals, which involves varying degrees of antisocial behavior, addiction, etc. While they certainly cannot be blamed for the situations they are often born and classed into, many of them will quite openly admit that there was an element of choice in their paths, the fact is that there are many of their counterparts of whatever demographic (race, class etc.) who did not take the same path attests to the fact that no one is a completely helpless victim, and being oppressed does not grant one license for shit behavior, in particular shit behavior which quite often hurts others in the same oppressed group the most. Add to this the fact that many advocates from these same communities chose a less self-serving, often more difficult path than those who chose to engage in the drug culture, etc. I agree that many of them should not be in jail period, but the idea that they are simply innocents doesn't square with reality.

I think we can acknowledge that the system in the US is grossly unfair and drives people (especially black people, but also anyone in the penal system with no money) to ruinous situations without turning individuals into caricatures that are unable to think or advocate for themselves, or unable to gain awareness of their own conditioning as criminals. This is a conclusion I have come to from actually talking to felons and prisoners, many of whom have made real efforts to move past their own conditioning, and do -not- seem to appreciate being viewed solely as victims - even when they know very well the unfair situations they often face.
I agree to an extent, but you are now going to the other extreme of psychologising and individualising poverty, of denying the existence of a political and social element.

Admitting that there are elements based on political and social structures does not disempower those effected by those structures, it does the opposite: it allows them to escape from this idea that they are solely to blame for their predicament, that it is their fault.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

Post by PeterC » Fri May 04, 2018 11:32 am

Without wanting to diminish the very fair criticisms of the US penal system, it is not the same as a North Korean concentration camp.

https://www.ibanet.org/Article/NewDetai ... 6b2c1ab480

During a day-long hearing held in Washington, DC in 2016, Chief Judge Navi Pillay and her fellow judges heard testimony from North Korean defectors, including a North Korean political prison guard and prison camp survivors. They provided graphic testimony of atrocities they witnessed or were subjected to in the political prisons, including accounts of:

 prisoners tortured and killed on account of their religious affiliation, with officials instructed ‘to wipe out the seed of [Christian] reactionaries’;
 a prisoner’s newborn baby, fed to guard dogs and killed;
 an abortion induced by three men standing on a wooden plank placed on a pregnant prisoner’s stomach;
 a female prisoner losing consciousness after enduring a beating designed to trigger premature labour, with prison officials killing her baby before she could regain consciousness;
 a prisoner raped by a security officer, after which the officer pushed a wooden stick inside her vagina and beat her lower body, resulting in her death within a week;
 the deliberate starvation, malnutrition, overwork and death of countless prisoners, including between 1,500–2,000 prisoners, mostly children, who are believed to have died each year from malnutrition in one camp alone, with many other prisoners beaten to death for failing to meet production quotas;
 a soldier supervising a forced labour site rolling a log down a steep mountainside, killing ten prisoners as they were carrying logs up the mountain;
 routine public executions of prisoners, carried out in front of both children and adults, designed to subdue the prison population;
 the execution of starving prisoners found digging for edible plants on a mountainside; and
 the beating to death of a prisoner for hiding stolen corn in his mouth.

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Re: Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

Post by shaunc » Fri May 04, 2018 12:11 pm

PeterC wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 11:32 am
Without wanting to diminish the very fair criticisms of the US penal system, it is not the same as a North Korean concentration camp.

https://www.ibanet.org/Article/NewDetai ... 6b2c1ab480

During a day-long hearing held in Washington, DC in 2016, Chief Judge Navi Pillay and her fellow judges heard testimony from North Korean defectors, including a North Korean political prison guard and prison camp survivors. They provided graphic testimony of atrocities they witnessed or were subjected to in the political prisons, including accounts of:

 prisoners tortured and killed on account of their religious affiliation, with officials instructed ‘to wipe out the seed of [Christian] reactionaries’;
 a prisoner’s newborn baby, fed to guard dogs and killed;
 an abortion induced by three men standing on a wooden plank placed on a pregnant prisoner’s stomach;
 a female prisoner losing consciousness after enduring a beating designed to trigger premature labour, with prison officials killing her baby before she could regain consciousness;
 a prisoner raped by a security officer, after which the officer pushed a wooden stick inside her vagina and beat her lower body, resulting in her death within a week;
 the deliberate starvation, malnutrition, overwork and death of countless prisoners, including between 1,500–2,000 prisoners, mostly children, who are believed to have died each year from malnutrition in one camp alone, with many other prisoners beaten to death for failing to meet production quotas;
 a soldier supervising a forced labour site rolling a log down a steep mountainside, killing ten prisoners as they were carrying logs up the mountain;
 routine public executions of prisoners, carried out in front of both children and adults, designed to subdue the prison population;
 the execution of starving prisoners found digging for edible plants on a mountainside; and
 the beating to death of a prisoner for hiding stolen corn in his mouth.
This is both horrific and extremely sad. But I thank you for posting it as it appears to me that some members here find it hard to diffentiate the difference between jails and concentration camps.

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Re: Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

Post by Norwegian » Fri May 04, 2018 1:08 pm

There is more also:
North Korean Prisons Are Worse Than Nazi Concentration Camps, Says Holocaust Survivor
“There is not a comparable situation anywhere in the world, past or present,” another expert said.

North Korean leader Kim Jong Un’s mistreatment of political prisoners is at least as egregious as that carried out in World War II concentration camps, according to a former international judge who survived Auschwitz.

Thomas Buergenthal, a law professor who served for a decade as an International Court of Justice judge, said a new report he helped write documenting atrocities in North Korea’s prisons shows the Kim regime may be “even worse” than Nazis.

“I believe that the conditions in the [North] Korean prison camps are as terrible, or even worse, than those I saw and experienced in my youth in these Nazi camps and in my long professional career in the human rights field,” Buergenthal, who endured the Auschwitz and Sachsenhausen concentration camps a child, told The Washington Post.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/no ... 1754330e3d

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoeryong_ ... ation_camp

http://freekorea.us/camps/#sthash.ldTci9df.dpbs

http://www.news.com.au/world/asia/the-c ... 05486585b4

http://listverse.com/2017/12/19/10-horr ... son-camps/

Honestly the fact that Greg first derails a question about North Korean concentration camps in a thread about North Korea, by going so much for North Korean concentration camps after posting some basic info about US prisons, and then saying that the majority of those imprisoned are poor, black, or Hispanic, and that they are basically innocent, and if someone did commit a crime well then what about rich people why aren't they imprisoned, is such a baffling thing to witness.

It's sheer ignorance, whataboutism, and an irrational hate of all things American.

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Re: Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

Post by Grigoris » Fri May 04, 2018 1:48 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 1:08 pm
...saying that the majority of those imprisoned are poor, black, or Hispanic..
I didn't say it, the statistics speak for themselves.
and that they are basically innocent...
I did not say that either, I said that they are victims of a racist economic and social system. I did not say anything about innocent or guilty.
...and if someone did commit a crime well then what about rich people why aren't they imprisoned
Which was evidence of the racist economic and political system, and nobody answered as to why they are not imprisoned.
...is such a baffling thing to witness.
What is baffling is that nobody has actually come up with any serious counters to my claims and the evidence furnished.
It's sheer ignorance, whataboutism, and an irrational hate of all things American.
Oh, now you are going to make me cry...

And while we are on the topic of concentration camps: Guantanamo Bay. Is that a better one?

And let's not get into U$ military outsourcing the torture of captives from Europe to Iraq and other "shitholes"...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

Post by Grigoris » Fri May 04, 2018 2:15 pm

And while we are on the subject of logic fallacies...

You accuse me of whataboutism while engaging in:

Red Herrings
Argument from incredulity
Ad hominem
Traitorous critic fallacy
Appeal to emotion
Judgmental language
Etc...
;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Korean War Over?

Post by Queequeg » Fri May 04, 2018 5:12 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 7:59 am
Queequeg wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 11:27 pm
Uh... Your definitions are very broad. I'll have leave you to them.
Patriarchy is not a political system?
As best as I understand, patriarchy can be a feature of political systems, but I'm not sure what standalone patriarchy would look like.

But that's not what I was trying to say. I just don't see how rape is categorically political as you seem to suggest.
Sorry, yes, I mean a universal income.
The idea of a universal income intrigues me - I'd like to explore it further. Not on board to support it as an actual policy proposal yet.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

Post by Queequeg » Fri May 04, 2018 5:17 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:15 pm
And while we are on the subject of logic fallacies...

You accuse me of whataboutism while engaging in:

Red Herrings
Argument from incredulity
Ad hominem
Traitorous critic fallacy
Appeal to emotion
Judgmental language
Etc...
;)
Greg, I think the point is, the moral equivalency you draw between the US prison system and the concentration camps in North Korea is hard for most others to sympathize with. Categories have to be defined very broadly to make that comparison, and a lot of important details have to necessarily be ignored. The wisdom of those sorts of comparisons is most certainly debatable.

I think I'm being extremely accommodating in putting it this way.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

Post by Queequeg » Fri May 04, 2018 5:26 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 8:03 am
it allows them to escape from this idea that they are solely to blame for their predicament, that it is their fault.
How do you square this with teachings on karma?

I'm not trying to troll. That is a genuine question.

I know that in your work you deal with populations that truly are subject to forces far beyond their control, and so I imagine for them it is important to understand that many of their experiences and difficult circumstances are not their fault.

How do teachings on karma figure into these situations?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Korean War Over?

Post by Grigoris » Fri May 04, 2018 7:10 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 5:12 pm
As best as I understand, patriarchy can be a feature of political systems, but I'm not sure what standalone patriarchy would look like.
I am showing you what it looks like within the political economy of "advanced" capitalism.
But that's not what I was trying to say. I just don't see how rape is categorically political as you seem to suggest.
Because it one of the means by which patriarchy is imposed.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

Post by Grigoris » Fri May 04, 2018 7:40 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 5:26 pm
How do you square this with teachings on karma?

I'm not trying to troll. That is a genuine question.
I understand.
I know that in your work you deal with populations that truly are subject to forces far beyond their control, and so I imagine for them it is important to understand that many of their experiences and difficult circumstances are not their fault.
I don't go so much into the idea of past karma with my patients. When helping them make sense of their role as victim, I try to get them to understand that the perpetrators actions are based in ignorance, fear and desire. Anybody can understand this without getting into rebirth and karma. It helps them make sense of their predicament as "Why me?" is a common question, without getting into "theories" that are just way to foreign for them to understand right now. You cannot say to somebody that has been raped and tortured and watched their family raped and killed in front of them that it was due to their past karma. It doesn't help.
How do teachings on karma figure into these situations?
I believe that people focus too much on karma vipaka and lose sight of the fact that people are generating karma vipaka (which may ripen in this or future lives) through their current actions too.

So it may be an outcome of my past actions that lead me to be reborn in certain conditions, and my actions in this life will ripen into results both in this life and future lives, BUT at the same time the people around me are currently generating outcomes (and karmic debts) themselves, through actions that influence me too.

For example: It may be my karma vipaka to be born poor and the karma vipaka of another to be born in a position that will allow them to become rich by depriving me of wealth. The other person though does not have to act on this condition. The other person may choose to be generous to me instead and share the wealth their previous karma has "entitled" them to. Karma is not fixed in Buddhism, it is dynamic. There are means to change it's course. Karma is not like predetermination or fate.

But really, going back to my original point: since when was karma about fault and blame anyway?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

Post by Queequeg » Fri May 04, 2018 8:06 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 7:40 pm
I don't go so much into the idea of past karma with my patients. When helping them make sense of their role as victim, I try to get them to understand that the perpetrators actions are based in ignorance, fear and desire. Anybody can understand this without getting into rebirth and karma. It helps them make sense of their predicament as "Why me?" is a common question, without getting into "theories" that are just way to foreign for them to understand right now.
Right on. That is deep.

You're explaining patience and equanimity as well as developing an understanding of context.

Given their horrific experiences, which I imagine present massive obstacles, how do people receive this?
For example: It may be my karma vipaka to be born poor and the karma vipaka of another to be born in a position that will allow them to become rich by depriving me of wealth. The other person though does not have to act on this condition. The other person may choose to be generous to me instead and share the wealth their previous karma has "entitled" them to. Karma is not fixed in Buddhism, it is dynamic. There are means to change it's course. Karma is not like predetermination or fate.
I think a mutual friend of ours might have a problem with how the rich and poor person relate to each other...
But really, going back to my original point: since when was karma about fault and blame anyway?
I think its hard for us to look ourselves and circumstances dispassionately and so fault and blame have a tendency to grip us.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Of Concentration Camps and Prisons - Split from "Korean War Over?"

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri May 04, 2018 9:28 pm

No one's circumstances of birth etc. can be said to be 'their fault', but people have choices in how they deal with their circumstances. Using a model of blame is pointless, but so is removing people's agency.
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