Meditate and grow your ego

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AilurusFulgens
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Re: Meditate and grow your ego

Post by AilurusFulgens » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:19 pm

I tend to tread carefully with such matters as the subject of this thread, but based on my personal encounters I can only say that there is some merit to the claims of the above-quoted article.

Just an example: I had the misfortune of knowing a Sanskrit-scholar speaking fluently this ancient language and even composing poetry in it, who had profound knowledge and longstanding practice of both mantrashastra and traditional yoga and later on became a devout Dzogchenpa boasting constantly to me how he is greater than his teachers, how I should become his student, etc. The arrogance exhibited reached such proportions that it was almost comical.

I have known people practising traditional yoga or Buddhadharma who several times bursted forth in such arrogant fury that it left me speechless, thinking: "You are behaving like this after doing 30 years of intensive sadhana?"

All of the above often reminds me of a Jewish tradition, where it is strictly forbidden to learn Torah from anyone who displays any such negative tendencies, no matter what profound knowledge he has, since he is considered, and to paraphrase the Talmud, no better than "a dead rat on the street".

It is also telling that none of the greatest rabbis and poskim, such as Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, ever signed their rulings with full titles. They just put their name and surname under the ruling. Rabbi Ovadia Yosef always signed himself as Ovadia Yosef.

The admirable thing about Judaism is its disgust with pride and anger and emphasis on modesty.

Also, in the Daoist tradition you have texts like "Qingxia zhenren neiyong biwen" 青霞真人內丹祕文 which warn emphatically that for example displays of pride, no matter how "divine" it may seem, are usually dangerous forms of delusion and clear signs that one failed at inner cultivation.

Finally, and this is simple logic, if a so-called teacher exhibits anger, arrogance, greed, etc. why should I respect him? In what way is he better than a common fool?

It is astounding to see the followers of such individuals engage in truly mind-bending mental acrobatics to excuse the behaviour and actions of their "teachers".

Let me again take recourse in the Jewish lore and echo its words: first of all let us try to be human beings and not animals.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Meditate and grow your ego

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:31 pm

:good: , especially this:

AilurusFulgens wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:19 pm
Finally, and this is simple logic, if a so-called teacher exhibits anger, arrogance, greed, etc. why should I respect him? In what way is he better than a common fool?

I daresay one can occasionally see such behavior on this very forum.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Queequeg
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Re: Meditate and grow your ego

Post by Queequeg » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:38 pm

AilurusFulgens wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:19 pm
if a so-called teacher exhibits anger, arrogance, greed, etc. why should I respect him? In what way is he better than a common fool?
From the Canki Sutta:
But in what way, Master Gotama, is there the discovery of truth? In what way does one discover truth? We ask Master Gotama about the discovery of truth.”
17. “Here, Bhāradvāja, a bhikkhu may be living in dependence on some village or town. Then a householder or a householder’s son goes to him and investigates him in regard to three kinds of states: in regard to states based on greed, in regard to states based on hate, and in regard to states based on delusion: ‘Are there in this venerable one any states based on greed such that, with his mind obsessed by those states, while not knowing he might say, “I know,” or while not seeing he might say, “I see,” or he might urge others to act in a way that would lead to their harm and suffering for a long time?’ As he investigates him he comes to know: ‘There are no such states based on greed in this venerable one. The bodily behaviour and the verbal behaviour of this venerable one are not those of one affected by greed. And the Dhamma that this venerable one teaches is profound, hard to see and hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, unattainable by mere reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise. This Dhamma cannot easily be taught by one affected by greed.’
18. “When he has investigated him and has seen that he is purified from states based on greed, he next investigates him in regard to states based on hate: ‘Are there in this venerable one any states based on hate such that, with his mind obsessed by those states … he might urge others to act in a way that would lead to their harm and suffering for a long time?’ As he investigates him, he comes to know: ‘There are no such states based on hate in this venerable one. The bodily behaviour and the verbal behaviour of this venerable one are not those of one affected by hate. And the Dhamma that this venerable one teaches is profound … to be experienced by the wise. This Dhamma cannot easily be taught by one affected by hate.’
19. “When he has investigated him and has seen that he is purified from states based on hate, he next investigates him in regard to states based on delusion: ‘Are there in this venerable one any states based on delusion such that, with his mind obsessed by those states … he might urge others to act in a way that would lead to their harm and suffering for a long time?’ As he investigates him, he comes to know: ‘There are no such states based on delusion in this venerable one. The bodily behaviour and the verbal behaviour of this venerable one are not those of one affected by delusion. And the Dhamma that this venerable one teaches is profound … to be experienced by the wise. This Dhamma cannot easily be taught by one affected by delusion.’
20. “When he has investigated him and has seen that he is purified from states based on delusion, then he places faith in him; filled with faith he visits him and pays respect to him; having paid respect to him, he gives ear; when he gives ear, he hears the Dhamma; having heard the Dhamma, he memorises it and examines the meaning of the teachings he has memorised; when he examines their meaning, he gains a reflective acceptance of those teachings; when he has gained a reflective acceptance of those teachings, zeal springs up; when zeal has sprung up, he applies his will; having applied his will, he scrutinises; having scrutinised, he strives; resolutely striving, he realises with the body the supreme truth and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom. In this way, Bhāradvāja, there is the discovery of truth; in this way one discovers truth; in this way we describe the discovery of truth. But as yet there is no final arrival at truth.”
“The final arrival at truth, Bhāradvāja, lies in the repetition, development, and cultivation of those same things. In this way, Bhāradvāja, there is the final arrival at truth; in this way one finally arrives at truth; in this way we describe the final arrival at truth.”
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Queequeg
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Re: Meditate and grow your ego

Post by Queequeg » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:40 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:31 pm
:good: , especially this:

AilurusFulgens wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:19 pm
Finally, and this is simple logic, if a so-called teacher exhibits anger, arrogance, greed, etc. why should I respect him? In what way is he better than a common fool?

I daresay one can occasionally see such behavior on this very forum.
Just occasionally?

Most of us aren't teachers, but rather just travelers working shit out. I cut most slack in this regard... I pray I get the same slack.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

AilurusFulgens
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Re: Meditate and grow your ego

Post by AilurusFulgens » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:51 pm

For us ordinary people I can only say: we all try our best. Everyone has a different background. Sometimes I think that the real siddhi is to be compassionate and modest. I certainly am far from that.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Meditate and grow your ego

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:52 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:40 pm
I pray I get the same slack.

I suggest you pray to "Bob", then. :smile:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Queequeg
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Re: Meditate and grow your ego

Post by Queequeg » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:10 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:52 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:40 pm
I pray I get the same slack.
I suggest you pray to "Bob", then. :smile:
I will commit no such blasphemy. Bob is just the prophet.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Meditate and grow your ego

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:15 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:10 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:52 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:40 pm
I pray I get the same slack.
I suggest you pray to "Bob", then. :smile:
I will commit no such blasphemy. Bob is just the prophet.

Well, a certain Mr. Stang felt no such compunction, see:
http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/FIST20 ... _Bob2.html
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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DNS
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Re: Meditate and grow your ego

Post by DNS » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:28 pm

Full-enlightenment involves no longer having any ego, pride, etc. However, one must have those to attain enlightenment. One might respond: What?? Ananda explains:

https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/AN_4.1 ... huni_Sutta

https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/SN_51. ... mana_Sutta

You need some conceit and desire to attain enlightenment. You have to have faith, conceit and desire that you are one that can attain enlightenment, is one that can seek it and attain it. And then once there, the desire, the conceit is gone, it is allayed.

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Queequeg
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Re: Meditate and grow your ego

Post by Queequeg » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:33 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:15 pm
Well, a certain Mr. Stang felt no such compunction, see:
http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/FIST20 ... _Bob2.html
We must smite the heretic, even if it is Mr. Stang. In this me must not slack.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Drenpa
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Re: Meditate and grow your ego

Post by Drenpa » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:30 am

Speaking of "Alpha Males", try doing a search for PUA and meditation. You might find it amusing. :smile:
Funny, but illustrative.

The idea of "meditation" as it is used in the article and in the culture of preying on women is precisely why the original article about mediation and ego is meaningless (along with so much dharma wheel discussion) without some kind of consensual baseline.

Seemingly without even an elephant to grope at, discussion gets completely out of hand right off the hop. Each word and concept meaning something different to each participant, to the point of the example of "one water, 6 lokas".

Probably why the more conditioned the discussion is by sub-forum & viewpoint, the more interesting and useful I often find it, YMMV.

SunWuKong
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Re: Meditate and grow your ego

Post by SunWuKong » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:53 am

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:31 pm
Meditation and yoga seem in some cases to inflate the ego. Like a cyst that needs to reach a certain size to be lanced maybe there's art to the practice?

What say you, Dharmawheelers?

https://qz.com/1307380/yoga-and-meditat ... searchers/
"However, this ego-quieting effect contradicts an apparent psychological universal, the self-centrality principle. "
wow that's the drivel printed in the abstract. Hardly what i'd call scintillating. Nor is it a proof.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

SunWuKong
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Re: Meditate and grow your ego

Post by SunWuKong » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:56 am

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:19 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:48 pm
Well, at least I learned that "athleisure" is a thing now.
They had to come up with something better than, "MILFs in yoga pants."
wait what where ??
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Meditate and grow your ego

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:28 am

SunWuKong wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:56 am
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:19 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:48 pm
Well, at least I learned that "athleisure" is a thing now.
They had to come up with something better than, "MILFs in yoga pants."
wait what where ??

Try doing a search for "MILFs in yoga pants." You might find it amusing. :smile:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

SunWuKong
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Re: Meditate and grow your ego

Post by SunWuKong » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:40 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:28 am
SunWuKong wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:56 am
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:19 pm


They had to come up with something better than, "MILFs in yoga pants."
wait what where ??

Try doing a search for "MILFs in yoga pants." You might find it amusing. :smile:
Did it. It only proved my lack of attachment to THAT...
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Meditate and grow your ego

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:46 am

SunWuKong wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:40 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:28 am
Try doing a search for "MILFs in yoga pants." You might find it amusing. :smile:
Did it. It only proved my lack of attachment to THAT...

Different strokes for different folks I guess.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Queequeg
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Re: Meditate and grow your ego

Post by Queequeg » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:56 am

I take the blame for this digression.
smh
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Meditate and grow your ego

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:02 am

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:56 am
I take the blame for this digression.
smh

Don't be so hard on yourself.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Queequeg
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Re: Meditate and grow your ego

Post by Queequeg » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:13 am

:facepalm:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Meditate and grow your ego

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:00 am

AilurusFulgens wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:51 pm
For us ordinary people I can only say: we all try our best. Everyone has a different background. Sometimes I think that the real siddhi is to be compassionate and modest. I certainly am far from that.
Exactly what I keep hearing from my teachers.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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