Religious freedom under attack in Australia

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Fortyeightvows
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Re: Religious freedom under attack in Australia

Post by Fortyeightvows » Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:43 am

SunWuKong wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:20 am
I've got a piece of paper that says I'm a minister.
Where did you get that?

PeterC
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Re: Religious freedom under attack in Australia

Post by PeterC » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:46 am

That article is highly misleading.

Priest-penitent privilege does not exist in Australian law. It has never been recognised. A conversation where you confess something to a priest is, from a legal perspective, no different from a conversation where you confess it to a taxi driver. What canon law says about the topic is of complete irrelevance to criminal law.

The legislation under discussion will require disclosure to authorities if someone - anyone - tells you about child abuse. There are other situations where mandatory reporting is required: this isn’t a new concept.

Catholics are trying here to defend a presumed right that they don’t in fact possess. They don’t argue that the same right should be extended to practitioners of other religions, of course. The sense of entitlement of Christians is remarkable.

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Mantrik
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Re: Religious freedom under attack in Australia

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:14 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:43 am
SunWuKong wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:20 am
I've got a piece of paper that says I'm a minister.
Where did you get that?
Want one?

If you have 10 minutes to spare go online to the Universal Life Church of California. You can ordain and receive a certificate, and order all manner of gear. Thereafter you are a Reverend, although for certain things like conducting marriages you may need additional paperwork.

https://www.ulc.org/

The irony here is that people can wave around their printed credentials and trusting parents hand over their children for 'Sunday School' etc. No police checks required, at least here in the UK, and I know of one local prosecution of such a Reverend for child sex offences. I assume it is similar in Australia, so this is in addition to the insitutionalised churches. The legal status of the online Reverend seems to be exaclty the same as any other church.
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Simon E.
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Re: Religious freedom under attack in Australia

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:38 am

'First they came for the Catholics and I did not speak out
Because I was not a Catholic....'

Its religion that is the target here ladies and gents.
Lets not kid ourselves.
It will lead to children being forbidden to attend Dharma events, by law.
Gone fishin' :smile:

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Grigoris
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Re: Religious freedom under attack in Australia

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:09 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:20 am
I've got a piece of paper that says I'm a minister. Whatever I hear by way of confession, which I do not feel is a necessary sacrament, for good or for evil, I do not feel obliged to notify the "authorities." Especially when the "authorities" here are known to kill suspects on sight.

Sorry about that.

Oh, I'm in the USA
If the authorities shot pedophiles on sight (and the article talks about confessions of pedophilia, so they are not suspects) I would give them medals. But they are too busy shooting innocent black people.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

amanitamusc
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Re: Religious freedom under attack in Australia

Post by amanitamusc » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:42 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:09 pm
SunWuKong wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:20 am
I've got a piece of paper that says I'm a minister. Whatever I hear by way of confession, which I do not feel is a necessary sacrament, for good or for evil, I do not feel obliged to notify the "authorities." Especially when the "authorities" here are known to kill suspects on sight.

Sorry about that.

Oh, I'm in the USA
If the authorities shot pedophiles on sight (and the article talks about confessions of pedophilia, so they are not suspects) I would give them medals. But they are too busy shooting innocent black people.
Story told to a priest and the ones told to hookers.Not always true.

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Grigoris
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Re: Religious freedom under attack in Australia

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:47 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:38 am
'First they came for the Catholics and I did not speak out
Because I was not a Catholic....'

Its religion that is the target here ladies and gents.
Lets not kid ourselves.
It will lead to children being forbidden to attend Dharma events, by law.
Histrionics. The article is taking about turning in pedophiles, not Catholics. Unless you are saying that all Catholics...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Mantrik
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Re: Religious freedom under attack in Australia

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:08 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:38 am
'First they came for the Catholics and I did not speak out
Because I was not a Catholic....'

Its religion that is the target here ladies and gents.
Lets not kid ourselves.
It will lead to children being forbidden to attend Dharma events, by law.
I hope it will lead to police checks for anyone teaching classes with children in them. Nobody legit has anything to fear. It is a simple process. I have seen too many examples of people running kids classes turning out to be paedophiles, although they were deemed to be adequately qualified as teachers in their sports, religions etc.

I note, entirely separately of course, that a school run by a certain cult was damned by Ofsted for safeguarding issues and closed down.

Perhaps, as well as 'confession' issues, the root causes could be better addressed, as there seems to be more legal control attached to running a boarding kennels than courses for children.
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Miroku
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Re: Religious freedom under attack in Australia

Post by Miroku » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:28 pm

I must say that I really enjoyed Lous CK's bit on pedophilia. It was quite an interesting piece of stand up.

That being said I think that it should be natural for priests to share this kind of info with the police. Also pedophiles should be caught before they really commit some kind of a crime. In Czechia we have a place for them to go where they get a psychological and/or psychiatric care. They can even ask for chemical neutering. It is bit controversial, however if you really are a pedophile and you know it (clap your hands) there should be some sort of support for you and medical help to overcome the urges or at least prevent hurting someone.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
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You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
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Fortyeightvows
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Re: Religious freedom under attack in Australia

Post by Fortyeightvows » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:54 am

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:14 am
Want one?
Absolutely not!
If king yama pulls my record, I don't want him to see any documents like that.

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Mantrik
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Re: Religious freedom under attack in Australia

Post by Mantrik » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:02 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:54 am
Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:14 am
Want one?
Absolutely not!
If king yama pulls my record, I don't want him to see any documents like that.
Don't blame you. When I was interviewed by the press about it, I was able to show the journalist that she could ordain her dog online. He already had a suitable collar! ;)
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

shaunc
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Re: Religious freedom under attack in Australia

Post by shaunc » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:25 am

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:08 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:38 am
'First they came for the Catholics and I did not speak out
Because I was not a Catholic....'

Its religion that is the target here ladies and gents.
Lets not kid ourselves.
It will lead to children being forbidden to attend Dharma events, by law.
I hope it will lead to police checks for anyone teaching classes with children in them. Nobody legit has anything to fear. It is a simple process. I have seen too many examples of people running kids classes turning out to be paedophiles, although they were deemed to be adequately qualified as teachers in their sports, religions etc.

I note, entirely separately of course, that a school run by a certain cult was damned by Ofsted for safeguarding issues and closed down.

Perhaps, as well as 'confession' issues, the root causes could be better addressed, as there seems to be more legal control attached to running a boarding kennels than courses for children.
In Australia anyone involved with children at all needs a background check. It's called a "working with vulnerable people and children card" and has to be renewed every 3 years. All sorts of people need them, coaches and managers of junior sports teams, bus and taxi drivers as well as the usual suspects like teachers etc.
Australia is probably the most regulated country in the world. We need a license or ticket for everything.

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Grigoris
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Re: Religious freedom under attack in Australia

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:56 am

shaunc wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:25 am
In Australia anyone involved with children at all needs a background check. It's called a "working with vulnerable people and children card" and has to be renewed every 3 years. All sorts of people need them, coaches and managers of junior sports teams, bus and taxi drivers as well as the usual suspects like teachers etc.
Australia is probably the most regulated country in the world. We need a license or ticket for everything.
And what is the rate of child abuse in Australia now days? Seems they were topping the scale for female child sexual abuse for a while there. Did the measures help? Ever considered that some things ought to be regulated?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Mantrik
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Re: Religious freedom under attack in Australia

Post by Mantrik » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:17 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:56 am
shaunc wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:25 am
In Australia anyone involved with children at all needs a background check. It's called a "working with vulnerable people and children card" and has to be renewed every 3 years. All sorts of people need them, coaches and managers of junior sports teams, bus and taxi drivers as well as the usual suspects like teachers etc.
Australia is probably the most regulated country in the world. We need a license or ticket for everything.
And what is the rate of child abuse in Australia now days? Seems they were topping the scale for female child sexual abuse for a while there. Did the measures help? Ever considered that some things ought to be regulated?
Without a 'control' experiment it can't be said that the regulations made no difference. I'm not sure how many paedophile prosecutions involve people who have passed the tests either. Do the tests include all religious groups and classes? We have unregulated unofficial classes and even schools in the UK - parents claim they are home schooling but actually sending them to Madrasas where beatings etc. are happening.

BBC report from Dec 2017:

''Who did the inquiry speak to?
The Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse had the power to look at any private, public or non-government body involved with children.

It was contacted by more than 15,000 people. More than 8,000 victims told their stories, many for the first time in private sessions.

The scope of the inquiry

2559 allegations referred to police since the inquiry began in 2013

230 prosecutions have commenced

41,770 calls received from members of the public

60,000 survivors may be eligible for compensation, estimates say

Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse

The commission also received more than 1,300 written accounts and held 57 public hearings across the nation. Allegations were raised against more than 4,000 institutions.

Religious ministers and school teachers were the most commonly reported perpetrators, the report said. The greatest number were in Catholic institutions.

Catholic Church 'abused 4,400 children' in Australia
Anglican Church receives 1,115 abuse complaints
Jehovah's Witness church 'hid 1,000 alleged abusers'

What did it recommend?
The commission had previously recommended that Catholic clerics should face criminal charges if they fail to report sexual abuse disclosed to them during confession.

The final report on Friday urged Australian Catholic bishops to petition the Vatican to amend canon law to allow priests to report such disclosures.

It also said the Catholic Church should consider making celibacy voluntary for priests because while it was "not a direct cause of child sexual abuse", it had "contributed to the occurrence of child sexual abuse, especially when combined with other risk factors".

The BBC's Hywel Griffith in Sydney said applying mandatory reporting to confession would trigger debate across the Catholic world, and has raised questions for bodies far beyond Australia's borders.

Among its other major findings, the inquiry recommended:

A nationally implemented strategy to prevent child sex abuse
A system of preventative training for children in schools and early childhood centres
A national office for child safety, overseen by a government minister
Making it mandatory for more occupations, such as religious ministers, early childhood workers and registered psychologists, to report abuse.''

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-42361874
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Grigoris
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Re: Religious freedom under attack in Australia

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:01 am

mantrik wrote:Without a 'control' experiment it can't be said that the regulations made no difference.
I was asking if they made a difference. Mainly because I believe that it would. Mainly because I believe that some things should be heavily regulated.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Mantrik
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Re: Religious freedom under attack in Australia

Post by Mantrik » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:26 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:01 am
mantrik wrote:Without a 'control' experiment it can't be said that the regulations made no difference.
I was asking if they made a difference. Mainly because I believe that that would. Mainly because I believe that some things should be heavily regulated.
I don't know if it is the same in Australia, but in the UK regardless of regulation, there is simply not the manpower to administer it, detect crimes, prosecute etc. Support services are collapsing for a variety of reasons - geriatric care being one which has bankrupted some councils. So many child abuse cases have been unearthed they are overwhelmed dealing with what they have, including the large child prostitution rings, slavery etc.

The Govt is now seeking to chuck out of jail all those with a sentence below 12 months. I doubt that probation services or social services will be given any additional budget to cope, so these people will be out loose on the street..........I think the estimate is that two thirds of them have drug, alcohol and mental health issues. Facilities for the homeless are so bad, where present, people are considering putting their babies up for adoption as they cannot care for them. Broken Britain.

So, to refer back to the OP, reporting is very much a subsidiary issue as there are simply no resources to follow it up.
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

shaunc
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Re: Religious freedom under attack in Australia

Post by shaunc » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:28 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:56 am
shaunc wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:25 am
In Australia anyone involved with children at all needs a background check. It's called a "working with vulnerable people and children card" and has to be renewed every 3 years. All sorts of people need them, coaches and managers of junior sports teams, bus and taxi drivers as well as the usual suspects like teachers etc.
Australia is probably the most regulated country in the world. We need a license or ticket for everything.
And what is the rate of child abuse in Australia now days? Seems they were topping the scale for female child sexual abuse for a while there. Did the measures help? Ever considered that some things ought to be regulated?
I've honestly got no idea whether the rates are higher, lower or indifferent to before. But I do know that whether it's good or bad, if someone wants to do something they find a way and if they don't they find an excuse.
The fact of the matter is that the highest rates of child abusers are family members or friends of the family.
The number one offenders out of this list are partners of the mother of the victim, either step father or defacto husband.
So what's the answer, an okay card for every male in the country.

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Religious freedom under attack in Australia

Post by Kim O'Hara » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:32 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:17 am
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:56 am
shaunc wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:25 am
In Australia anyone involved with children at all needs a background check. It's called a "working with vulnerable people and children card" and has to be renewed every 3 years. All sorts of people need them, coaches and managers of junior sports teams, bus and taxi drivers as well as the usual suspects like teachers etc.
Australia is probably the most regulated country in the world. We need a license or ticket for everything.
And what is the rate of child abuse in Australia now days? Seems they were topping the scale for female child sexual abuse for a while there. Did the measures help? Ever considered that some things ought to be regulated?
Without a 'control' experiment it can't be said that the regulations made no difference. I'm not sure how many paedophile prosecutions involve people who have passed the tests either. ...
The regulations are relatively new so we won't know for quite some time whether they make a difference.

:namaste:
Kim

PeterC
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Re: Religious freedom under attack in Australia

Post by PeterC » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:16 am

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:17 am
...
Religious ministers and school teachers were the most commonly reported perpetrators, the report said. The greatest number were in Catholic institutions.

Catholic Church 'abused 4,400 children' in Australia
Anglican Church receives 1,115 abuse complaints
Jehovah's Witness church 'hid 1,000 alleged abusers'
...
Thank you for posting this. I think the question becomes a lot easier when you look at the facts.

The catholic church - and indeed religions in general, and Christians in particular - argue for special treatment in their favour. It is true that common law has historically provided concessions for Christians (this is discussed extensively in Blackstone for those interested). But in the face of the evidence, we should have a presumption against clerics, in particular Catholics. They should be subject to heightened scrutiny, not allowed special protections when it comes to issues around child abuse.

Indeed absent the evidence, common sense would argue for it. An adult man who has taken a vow of celibacy, not because he wants to be celibate, but because he believes god has told him to do that; who believes he has a personal and special relationship with god, and that that relationship is more important than his legal obligations as part of society; and who is part of an organization with an extensive history of facilitating and concealing child abuse. Should that man receive special concessions under the law?

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Mantrik
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Re: Religious freedom under attack in Australia

Post by Mantrik » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:40 am

PeterC wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:16 am
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:17 am
...
Religious ministers and school teachers were the most commonly reported perpetrators, the report said. The greatest number were in Catholic institutions.

Catholic Church 'abused 4,400 children' in Australia
Anglican Church receives 1,115 abuse complaints
Jehovah's Witness church 'hid 1,000 alleged abusers'
...
Thank you for posting this. I think the question becomes a lot easier when you look at the facts.

The catholic church - and indeed religions in general, and Christians in particular - argue for special treatment in their favour. It is true that common law has historically provided concessions for Christians (this is discussed extensively in Blackstone for those interested). But in the face of the evidence, we should have a presumption against clerics, in particular Catholics. They should be subject to heightened scrutiny, not allowed special protections when it comes to issues around child abuse.

Indeed absent the evidence, common sense would argue for it. An adult man who has taken a vow of celibacy, not because he wants to be celibate, but because he believes god has told him to do that; who believes he has a personal and special relationship with god, and that that relationship is more important than his legal obligations as part of society; and who is part of an organization with an extensive history of facilitating and concealing child abuse. Should that man receive special concessions under the law?
I think it needs unpicking more, as they are crude figures.
One factor must be ease of access to children, and established churches will obviously find this easier.
The other aspect is that of course those established churches can cover up the crimes far more easily and move errant priests around the world to avoid prosecutions etc.
I wonder what proportion of the celibate monks commit attacks on children.

And in the context of the OP, I wonder how often a confession by a paedophile is being heard by another, the priest himself.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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