Praetorian Guard starting to move?

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Queequeg
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Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Queequeg » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:43 pm

Still not anywhere close, but this is brings us closer to a coup than last week. The military canceling the President's parade this week is another interesting coincidence. (Of course, the Idiot in Chief had to try and take credit for canceling and then blaming it on someone else. At least the military is not going to be complicit in his putative dictatorship. It will be a new low when Trump pulls out his military school jacket and tries to fit it over that bloated body.)

https://nyti.ms/2MW5mtp
A group of top former intelligence and military leaders are sending a message to the nation’s troops and spies: think twice before following the president’s orders in a crisis.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

Jeff H
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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Jeff H » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:34 pm

It's a heartening article, but that Buddha-esque picture of Trump is a little disconcerting. :jawdrop:
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Queequeg
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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Queequeg » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:45 pm

Hey Jeff,
I don't know if this is a good thing. A breakdown in loyalty and following orders would be a terrible precedent. That said, if the president is worse, then choices will need to be made.
Let's hope we get past this crisis without having to resort to that.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

Jeff H
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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Jeff H » Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:02 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:45 pm
Hey Jeff,
I don't know if this is a good thing. A breakdown in loyalty and following orders would be a terrible precedent. That said, if the president is worse, then choices will need to be made.
Let's hope we get past this crisis without having to resort to that.
I didn't mean the prospect of a coup was heartening. I was referring to the fact that some people on the "inside" are finally saying "Enough!", and with authority. Trump is the champion standing for a long-in-coming breakdown of reason, civil discourse, and democracy itself. He represents the precedent in which street brawls and coups become viable courses of action. Too bad these guys fall so neatly into the deep state conspiracy theory. I'd like to see the Democrats regroup and present a standard for democratically asserted public support of this "Enough!" statement in the political arena.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:02 pm

There was also this

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytime ... p.amp.html

This is what happens when the other branches of government are asleep at the wheel.
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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Jeff H » Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:21 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:02 pm
There was also this

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytime ... p.amp.html

This is what happens when the other branches of government are asleep at the wheel.
Two things strike me about this article. First, that John Bolton was so instrumental in forcing the deal behind Trump's back, and second, that the Four 30s clause seems to resolve Trump's primary complaint about NATO, that Europe is depending too much on the US without holding up their end. This sounds more like a good cop/bad cop strategy than an end run around Trump.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:24 pm

Jeff H wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:21 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:02 pm
There was also this

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytime ... p.amp.html

This is what happens when the other branches of government are asleep at the wheel.
Two things strike me about this article. First, that John Bolton was so instrumental in forcing the deal behind Trump's back, and second, that the Four 30s clause seems to resolve Trump's primary complaint about NATO, that Europe is depending too much on the US without holding up their end. This sounds more like a good cop/bad cop strategy than an end run around Trump.
I do not know. Maybe you’re correct. Appears this theme. Themes have a way of becoming stories.
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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:43 pm

Back-stabbing for democracy, an old tradition!
et tu brute.jpg
et tu brute.jpg (36.75 KiB) Viewed 677 times
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:27 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:43 pm
Back-stabbing for democracy, an old tradition!

et tu brute.jpg
Caesar was “elected” dictator for life. He was killed to protect democracy. It didn’t work. The damage was done. I fear the same is true now. I believe some Greek sophister predicted the conclusion of all democracies... mob rule and dictators. He said philosopher kings was best. You know, Buddha and the binaya and sangha
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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by kirtu » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:36 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:27 pm
Caesar was “elected” dictator for life. He was killed to protect democracy. It didn’t work. The damage was done. I fear the same is true now.
Really? How? The United States was never a democracy. The reassertion of the 1950's Deep South/Midwest KKK culture will obviously retard the USA even further from attaining democracy but the culture of the US is resistant to democracy to begin with. Property rights and being able to carry weapons are not the be-all and end-all of democracy. They are not even the beginning of it.
I believe some Greek sophister predicted the conclusion of all democracies... mob rule and dictators. He said philosopher kings was best. You know, Buddha and the binaya and sangha
Democracy has been extinguished in Hungary, it never took real root in Turkey, it is in danger of being killed off in Austria and it may face threat in Sweden. Aside from Sweden and Austria none of the other democracies are really in danger, not even France. Democracy is unfolding in Australia and they may become the third major English speaking nation to become a democracy (after New Zealand and Canada).

Kirt
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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Wayfarer » Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:08 am

It’s plainly obvious that Trump is not acting in the national interest, but wholly and solely in his own. But in his mind, he can’t make any such distinction, such is his egotistical and delusional narcissism. Until the GOP gets the guts to stand up, this will continuing spiralling downwards, at enormous cost to the US and the world.
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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Queequeg » Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:09 am

Jeff H wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:02 pm
Too bad these guys fall so neatly into the deep state conspiracy theory.
So true.

Sorry I misunderstood you.

There is something to These guys being "deep state" though. These are serious people who have been working on security for a long time. Regardless of who is president, these people's jobs continues. Now the president is sabotaging their efforts, and in their view, this is seriously compromising the security of the country. This is law enforcement, spy agencies and the military.

I'm no fan of these policies, but if there are any people who can get Republicans to snap out of their stupor, it's this crowd ringing the alarm.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by PeterC » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:16 am

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:45 pm
Hey Jeff,
I don't know if this is a good thing. A breakdown in loyalty and following orders would be a terrible precedent. That said, if the president is worse, then choices will need to be made.
Let's hope we get past this crisis without having to resort to that.
Not sure it's a question of loyalty, or even a crisis. The military, public servants etc. all swear to uphold the constitution, and pledge allegiance to the republic (with the flag as embodiment of that). Nobody pledges allegiance to the president as a person or to the presidency, and as has been pointed out in the context of Trump's attempts to sign white house staff to NDAs, there are provisions enacted post-Nixon that reinforce this. All systems of military and civil law have mechanisms for rejecting illegal orders. For those to work, the people receiving orders need to have a spine - which is why it's helpful that people like McRaven are publicly declaring their views.

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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Wayfarer » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:47 am

Jeff H wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:02 pm
Too bad these guys fall so neatly into the deep state conspiracy theory.
What's too bad, is that so many people are willing to believe in the 'deep state conspiracy' meme.

I was looking at Rick Wilson's latest book, Everything Trump Touches Dies, which is an excoriating, pull-no-punches critique and expose from the Right, when I noticed the other titles that appeared on the Amazon Carousel above it. So many of them were 'deep state conspiracy' bullshit, glossy, compelling, in-depth - and total crap. And they're no doubt being bought in the millions by ardent Trumpets, all of whom swallow it wholesale.

Let's not forget the Guy DeBord's Society of the Spectacle:
Debord traces the development of a modern society in which authentic social life has been replaced with its representation: "All that once was directly lived has become mere representation." Debord argues that the history of social life can be understood as "the decline of being into having, and having into merely appearing to have." This condition, according to Debord, is the "historical moment at which the commodity completes its colonization of social life."
Trump is Avatar.
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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:51 am

kirtu wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:36 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:27 pm
Caesar was “elected” dictator for life. He was killed to protect democracy. It didn’t work. The damage was done. I fear the same is true now.
Really? How? The United States was never a democracy. The reassertion of the 1950's Deep South/Midwest KKK culture will obviously retard the USA even further from attaining democracy but the culture of the US is resistant to democracy to begin with. Property rights and being able to carry weapons are not the be-all and end-all of democracy. They are not even the beginning of it.
I believe some Greek sophister predicted the conclusion of all democracies... mob rule and dictators. He said philosopher kings was best. You know, Buddha and the binaya and sangha
Democracy has been extinguished in Hungary, it never took real root in Turkey, it is in danger of being killed off in Austria and it may face threat in Sweden. Aside from Sweden and Austria none of the other democracies are really in danger, not even France. Democracy is unfolding in Australia and they may become the third major English speaking nation to become a democracy (after New Zealand and Canada).

Kirt
Interesting perspective
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Wayfarer » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:01 am

kirtu wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:36 pm
Democracy is unfolding in Australia and they may become the third major English speaking nation to become a democracy (after New Zealand and Canada).
Wikipedia wrote:The Commonwealth of Australia came into being on 1 January 1901 with the federation of the six Australian colonies. The inaugural election took place on 29 and 30 March and the first Australian Parliament was opened on 9 May 1901 in Melbourne by Prince George, Duke of Cornwall and York, later King George V.
You mean, Prince George didn't manage to 'unfold' it back then?
CrazyWisdom wrote:I believe some Greek sophister predicted the conclusion of all democracies... mob rule and dictators.
Plato predicted that democracy would be subverted by the demagogue:
Wikipedia wrote:A demagogue /ˈdɛməɡɒɡ/ (from Greek δημαγωγός, a popular leader, a leader of a mob, from δῆμος, people, populace, the commons + ἀγωγός leading, leader) or rabble-rouser is a leader in a democracy who gains popularity by exploiting prejudice and ignorance among the common people, whipping up the passions of the crowd and shutting down reasoned deliberation Demagogues overturn established customs of political conduct, or promise or threaten to do so.
Ring any bells?
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:06 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:01 am
kirtu wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:36 pm
Democracy is unfolding in Australia and they may become the third major English speaking nation to become a democracy (after New Zealand and Canada).
Wikipedia wrote:The Commonwealth of Australia came into being on 1 January 1901 with the federation of the six Australian colonies. The inaugural election took place on 29 and 30 March and the first Australian Parliament was opened on 9 May 1901 in Melbourne by Prince George, Duke of Cornwall and York, later King George V.
You mean, Prince George didn't manage to 'unfold' it back then?
CrazyWisdom wrote:I believe some Greek sophister predicted the conclusion of all democracies... mob rule and dictators.
Plato predicted that democracy would be subverted by the demagogue:
Wikipedia wrote:A demagogue /ˈdɛməɡɒɡ/ (from Greek δημαγωγός, a popular leader, a leader of a mob, from δῆμος, people, populace, the commons + ἀγωγός leading, leader) or rabble-rouser is a leader in a democracy who gains popularity by exploiting prejudice and ignorance among the common people, whipping up the passions of the crowd and shutting down reasoned deliberation Demagogues overturn established customs of political conduct, or promise or threaten to do so.
Ring any bells?

Ding ding. And Plato also wrote about Atlantis. He’s been credited with justifying Fascism, by Popper. So who knows if Plato is any better than Pluto. But his theories on the bardo of governance is very eery.

Well there’s the philosopher king, Buddha and vinaya which has an actual 2,500 year history. There is something very reassuring about that. I know, no matter what shit storm samsara descends into, I can always go for refuge somewhere. Where? The Three Jewels on the lion Throne on lotus on sun and moon seat, the actual true refuge, true governing power of the universe of planet earth, because it subdues all opposition and conflicts.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:43 am

Personally, I wouldn't trust Brennan et al further than I could throw them...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Wayfarer » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:37 am

Yeah if there’s anyone on this forum who would just love the ex-chief of the CIA, then that’d be you, right? :tongue:
CrazyWisdom wrote:Plato’s been credited with justifying Fascism, by Popper.
Actually it was the rule of enlightened yet disinterested philosopher-kings - which would be an absolutely fantastic solution, were there such. And even if there were, how would you pick ‘em? You can’t pick ‘em, that’s the point. You simply have to consent. Then you end up with a theocracy again.

Nevertheless, his prediction of the demagogue sure rings true.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:20 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:37 am
Yeah if there’s anyone on this forum who would just love the ex-chief of the CIA, then that’d be you, right? :tongue:
CrazyWisdom wrote:Plato’s been credited with justifying Fascism, by Popper.
Actually it was the rule of enlightened yet disinterested philosopher-kings - which would be an absolutely fantastic solution, were there such. And even if there were, how would you pick ‘em? You can’t pick ‘em, that’s the point. You simply have to consent. Then you end up with a theocracy again.

Nevertheless, his prediction of the demagogue sure rings true.
I’m not a huge fan of America since WWII. The basic values have been flushed down the toilet. Civil rights excepted. We needed those. Why would I prefer someone from CIA? You have the wrong idea about me.

As for who would pick philosopher kings, in Vinaya it’s just seniority AFAIK. And there’s no central boss. I guess they organize themselves regionally. I look at philosopher king as king of the philosophers. If everyone is like the mob you get Trump. If they are yogis you can have Buddha. Don’t think the intellectual philosophers had enough basis to be any more than a small branch of the whole military industry system. Definitely dharma is superior alternative to that.
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