Praetorian Guard starting to move?

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kirtu
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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by kirtu » Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:41 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:01 am
kirtu wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:36 pm
Democracy is unfolding in Australia and they may become the third major English speaking nation to become a democracy (after New Zealand and Canada).
Wikipedia wrote:The Commonwealth of Australia came into being on 1 January 1901 with the federation of the six Australian colonies. The inaugural election took place on 29 and 30 March and the first Australian Parliament was opened on 9 May 1901 in Melbourne by Prince George, Duke of Cornwall and York, later King George V.
You mean, Prince George didn't manage to 'unfold' it back then?
No, democracy became achievable in Australia as a result of the realization of Australians that the Aboriginal people really had been oppressed with the concomitant will to create a fair society. This basically happened more or less during the Sidney Games in 2000.
CrazyWisdom wrote:I believe some Greek sophister predicted the conclusion of all democracies... mob rule and dictators.

Plato predicted that democracy would be subverted by the demagogue:
Wikipedia wrote:A demagogue /ˈdɛməɡɒɡ/ (from Greek δημαγωγός, a popular leader, a leader of a mob, from δῆμος, people, populace, the commons + ἀγωγός leading, leader) or rabble-rouser is a leader in a democracy who gains popularity by exploiting prejudice and ignorance among the common people, whipping up the passions of the crowd and shutting down reasoned deliberation Demagogues overturn established customs of political conduct, or promise or threaten to do so.
Ring any bells?
Sure Erdogan, Kurz, Orban, Kaczynski, Hitler, Mussolini, Putin, Pol Pot and his cronies. But demagogues are successful historically in countries that have not become democracies. We don't have many examples of demagogues arising in democracies (Kurz in Austria is the major counterexample and Le Pen would be a second major example if she were to be elected but I don't think the France will do that).

In the US we have the resumption of a form of the 1950 KKK south and midwest stoked by a kind of demagogue. But the US was never a democracy since it never created a successful basis for democracy to rise : something like 35% of the adult population of the country are disenfranchised from society on the basis of one or more form of structural prejudice, ~35% of the population are threatened with constant poverty and possible death often through a lack of health care. Democracy can only arise in stable societies where people's basic material needs are met and where the society has a substantial level of basic equality. This excludes a substantial minority in the US. This exact criticism of the US has been made by many people since at least the late 1950's across the political spectrum (but the critics generally saw the US as progressing toward an equitable society either due to material development or due to social development or both). In the 90's people like PJ O'Rourke specifically praised the US as an example for the world because of the broad expansion of legal fairness but this is demonstrably false since we have an unfair legal system targeting many people of color and almost all low income people.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

Jeff H
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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Jeff H » Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:02 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:47 am
Jeff H wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:02 pm
Too bad these guys fall so neatly into the deep state conspiracy theory.
What's too bad, is that so many people are willing to believe in the 'deep state conspiracy' meme.
Yes, that was my reference. Trump weaponizes beliefs like that in his demagoguery. But there’s also this:
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:43 am
Personally, I wouldn't trust Brennan et al further than I could throw them...
Thoughtful people, too, can’t find anyone in authority to trust. My parents' generation believed the government, in general, had benevolent intentions and understood what to do because government authorities had good information. They got turned around while glued to the TV watching the Watergate hearings, meanwhile my grandmother would stomp through the TV room muttering, “Monsieur and Madame Defarge!”. (For those who miss the reference, in A Tale of Two Cities, Madame Defarge was the revolutionary leader who quietly knitted a scarf with the names of all the people that would be executed after the revolution.)

When I first started questioning the principle of democracy (for example, how many votes are actually "well informed choices"?) I thought the best government would be a Benevolent Dictatorship. The tricky part, of course, is the benevolence!


Wayfarer wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:47 am
Let's not forget the Guy DeBord's Society of the Spectacle:
Debord traces the development of a modern society in which authentic social life has been replaced with its representation: "All that once was directly lived has become mere representation." Debord argues that the history of social life can be understood as "the decline of being into having, and having into merely appearing to have." This condition, according to Debord, is the "historical moment at which the commodity completes its colonization of social life."
Trump is Avatar.
On that theme, Bill Maher did six minutes of “Avatar America” Friday night. Good stuff, and I thought pretty insightful.

We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:10 pm

There is no one to trust anymore, not your relatives or so called loved ones. These are dark times. Hayagriva helps us
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:38 pm

I was watching "Who is America" last night and was surprised to see Baron Cohen interviewing a real-life modern day Roman citizen. Someone who actually gets to vote.

It was that disgustingly rich couple he talked about periods too, while being a brilliant rip-off of a far-leftist.

It was even more amazing when I found myself sympathizing with that ridiculous couple as Baron Cohen went further and further off the deep end.

Interesting TV.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Wayfarer
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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:15 am

What has been or is being destroyed in American civil discourse is the idea of principled opposition. This is the essential idea of allowing for a range of viewpoints and differences of view which can be accommodated even though they plainly disagree. Now, the aim is to vilify and destroy one's opponents - not simply to make your case and duke it out in the battle of ideas.

Of course this is a vast problem with many facets and not something that could be summarised in a short post. But one point I want to make is that there is considerable blame on all ends of the political spectrum for this degradation. On the left, there is the routine vilification of anyone who opposes the politics of identity and who blame political conservatism for everything that is wrong in the world. ON the right, there are massive and totally irrational 'conspiracy theories' fanned by semi-educated fanatics with axes to grind.

In the past, it was possible to have a body politic where those on 'each side of the aisle' still could negotiate, engage in debates, win some, loose some, make a compromise, and move ahead. I am not American, but I can think of quite a few US politicians and statespersons whom I think worthy of respect, even if they often did things I would never have voted for, had I been an elector.

Brennan and the other old hands of the CiA and FBI may sure have been involved in some really shady black-ops and dodgy deals, no question. But my belief is that they really act from their sense of duty and within what they perceived as the rule of law in the service of the country. The current President shows not the least understanding of what any of that means.

I'm afraid the Democrats are splintering, unable to find a single voice, or another torchbearer for their desperately-needed causes. I can only hope someone from roughly centre-left or centre-right can emerge to rescue US democracy into the deadly state into which it is falling under Trump. If Brennan et al can help in that cause, then more strength to them; at least they speak on behalf of what they understand as the Constitution, and not just how they can exploit it for their own personal power and advancement. //end rant.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:14 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:15 am
What has been or is being destroyed in American civil discourse is the idea of principled opposition. This is the essential idea of allowing for a range of viewpoints and differences of view which can be accommodated even though they plainly disagree.
Or we could just literally consume the flesh of the rich.

No one's tried it as a strategy. Just hear me out... folks....
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:41 am

If it came to that, the 1% wouldn't constitute a single decent snack for the 99%. :smile:

And then it would be back to hunter-gatherer. :stirthepot:
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by The Cicada » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:13 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:14 am
Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:15 am
What has been or is being destroyed in American civil discourse is the idea of principled opposition. This is the essential idea of allowing for a range of viewpoints and differences of view which can be accommodated even though they plainly disagree.
Or we could just literally consume the flesh of the rich.

No one's tried it as a strategy. Just hear me out... folks....
Then the people at the top of the pyramid will be the cannibals and the structure of society will continue to change along the same course..... Get it? Top of the pyramid?

Hiyooooo!

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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by kirtu » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:54 am

In the United States we do not have a Praetorian Guard but as Eisenhower warned us we do have a military-industrial complex that has several facets, one of the primary aspects of which is the intelligence community (itself a non-monolithic institution). Capricious lifting of former CIA director Brennan's security clearance as well as the threat to extend that to several other critics of the current President's policies/actions appears likely to be adjudicated in the courts. This can result in a perfunctory judgement, in which case the question of the full extent of the latitude of action that the office of the Presidency can take wrt security clearances will not be resolved (which has been the usual legal course when similar issues were raised in the past) or it might result in a full-scale constitutional showdown. A third possibility is that a real judicial resolution is bypassed based on the wide latitude that the office of the Presidency is vested with. This course has also been trod historically although capriciously lifting the security clearance of a high ranking member of the intelligence community has never before played out in this way in public.

Brennan says he’s willing to take Trump to court as battle heats up over revoked clearance
Former CIA director John O. Brennan voiced his eagerness to challenge President Trump on the same day that national security adviser John Bolton floated the idea of reviewing all security clearances inside and outside the government. Such a review could affect more than 4 million Americans.
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:22 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:41 am
If it came to that, the 1% wouldn't constitute a single decent snack for the 99%. :smile:

And then it would be back to hunter-gatherer. :stirthepot:
Once you've eaten the 1% a new 1% appears.

The trick is just never stop eating them.

Eventually the 1% will be the 100%.

It's better than moving the 99 into the 1.

世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Queequeg » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:32 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:20 pm
it’s just seniority AFAIK
That's how palace intrigue and fratricide starts.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

Crazywisdom
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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Crazywisdom » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:27 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:32 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:20 pm
it’s just seniority AFAIK
That's how palace intrigue and fratricide starts.
I don’t think the Sangha is free from that, but has worked ok for some time.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Queequeg » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:20 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:27 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:32 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:20 pm
it’s just seniority AFAIK
That's how palace intrigue and fratricide starts.
I don’t think the Sangha is free from that, but has worked ok for some time.
Would the philosopher king come from the ranks of the Sangha?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

Crazywisdom
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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Crazywisdom » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:49 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:20 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:27 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:32 pm


That's how palace intrigue and fratricide starts.
I don’t think the Sangha is free from that, but has worked ok for some time.
Would the philosopher king come from the ranks of the Sangha?
I think I’m proposing Buddha did one better with the vinaya.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Queequeg
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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Queequeg » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:51 pm

kirtu wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:41 pm
No, democracy became achievable in Australia as a result of the realization of Australians that the Aboriginal people really had been oppressed with the concomitant will to create a fair society. This basically happened more or less during the Sidney Games in 2000...

In the US we have the resumption of a form of the 1950 KKK south and midwest stoked by a kind of demagogue. But the US was never a democracy since it never created a successful basis for democracy to rise : something like 35% of the adult population of the country are disenfranchised from society on the basis of one or more form of structural prejudice, ~35% of the population are threatened with constant poverty and possible death often through a lack of health care. Democracy can only arise in stable societies where people's basic material needs are met and where the society has a substantial level of basic equality. This excludes a substantial minority in the US. This exact criticism of the US has been made by many people since at least the late 1950's across the political spectrum (but the critics generally saw the US as progressing toward an equitable society either due to material development or due to social development or both). In the 90's people like PJ O'Rourke specifically praised the US as an example for the world because of the broad expansion of legal fairness but this is demonstrably false since we have an unfair legal system targeting many people of color and almost all low income people.

Kirt
This is too pessimistic and doesn't take into account several episodes in US history to remedy what is/was wrong with democracy.

After the Civil War, the 13th (abolishment of slavery and involuntary servitude), 14th (Citizenship, Privileges or Immunities, Due Process Clause, and Equal Protection), and 15th (right to vote) Amendments to the constitutions aimed to bring former slaves into the democratic social contract. These amendments faced heavy resistance and their spirit if not letter were frustrated.

In the 1950s-60s, the Civil Rights laws further aimed to ameliorate the legacy of slavery. The 60s and 70s also saw improvements for Native Americans.

Admittedly, efforts have stalled, but its wrong to say that the US has never made any efforts to address problems. This discounts the efforts and work of a lot of people and ignores significant improvements over the course of generations.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Grigoris
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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:59 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Queequeg
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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Queequeg » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:37 pm

But, Greg, your recommendation is to tear it all down and start from scratch. None of us wants that. They tried that in Cambodia, USSR, China. They left big bloody skid marks across history.

Not that its actually even possible to take steps back. That would mean time travel is perfected.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by The Cicada » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:52 pm

Addressing the board with a related question for consideration:

What do we anticipate would happen once a coup against the current president has taken place; what would be the immediate and concatenate effects of this event?

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Queequeg
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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Queequeg » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:11 pm

Given that Washington has proven to be a bunch of thumb twiddlers, the most significant action would be on K street where the lobbyists would game plan on how to play this. We'd have a bunch of yelling and screaming on CNN until it was shut down. People would freak for a little while, but when the sky didn't fall, business continues as usual, and things actually start getting done, or at least not get worse, the consensus would be to go along to get along. Medium term.

Long term? The junta would become increasingly corrupt, but depending on how well the rest of the system is designed, it might continue like that for a long time.

The Roman Empire managed to continue for a millennia under mostly bad and unremarkable government before it just dissolved.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Grigoris
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Re: Praetorian Guard starting to move?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:25 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:37 pm
None of us wants that.
Speak for yourself!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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