Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

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lisehull
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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by lisehull » Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:07 pm

What do folks think about the comments related to Pema Chodron, that she victim-shamed an abuse victim and is also on the so-called Transition Team? I have had my concerns about her for some time, especially since she has never distanced herself from Trungpa. And apparently now, she is colluding with the issues surrounding the latest allegations. I have wondered, is she in severe denial, brainwashed, colluding with the abuse, or a victim of trauma herself, which she has not healed from.

Any input would be greatly appreciated. I have found her teachings beneficial, but have always had this nagging distrust. :namaste:

Thank you,
Lise

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Grigoris
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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:35 pm

lisehull wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:07 pm
What do folks think about the comments related to Pema Chodron, that she victim-shamed an abuse victim and is also on the so-called Transition Team? I have had my concerns about her for some time, especially since she has never distanced herself from Trungpa. And apparently now, she is colluding with the issues surrounding the latest allegations. I have wondered, is she in severe denial, brainwashed, colluding with the abuse, or a victim of trauma herself, which she has not healed from.
How many people here can read Venerable Pema Chodron's mind?

None?

So the discussion will be based on gossip and unsubstantiated second guessing?
Any input would be greatly appreciated. I have found her teachings beneficial, but have always had this nagging distrust. :namaste:

Thank you,
Lise
If you have a "nagging distrust of Venerable Pema Chodron then don't take any teachings from her. It is that simple.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:51 pm

Be warned: generally these discussions become a festival of rumor and gossip, often crossing the line into libel. As such any opinions will have to be substantiated by publically available (ie verifiable) statements made by Venerable Pema Chodron. Any statements that are not backed by evidence will be deleted.

Nagging distrust and intuitive feelings are not going to cut it.

If this discussion turns sour, I will close it down and hand out warnings and suspensions.

Don't say I did not warn you.

All this ^^^ is for the sake of civilised, meaningful and intelligent conversation.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Emmet
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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Emmet » Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:22 pm

What do folks think about the comments related to Pema Chodron...
Dana is not confined to dropping a dollar in the box at the door to the practice hall, it's also generosity of spirit; giving people the benefit of the doubt, and thinking the best of them. Private conversations are impossible to corroborate, and I'm committed to the old-fashioned notion that someone's innocent until proven guilty. What I find disturbing about this is when considered in toto; the consistent accounts of several others of how high-ranking officials in the organization allegedly aided and abetted in a pattern of exploitation and cover-up, including sexual assault and statutory rape, how several accounts spoke of this as an "open secret" in the upper echelons of the organization, and Ethan Nichtern's statement detailing how promotion and advancement within the organization was inextricably linked to personal loyalty and devotion, not to the organization, but to the leader himself; a cult of personality. Pema Chodron is a high-ranking leader in that organization, and innocent or guilty, when this shit hits the fan everyone in that inner circle is going to get splattered, justly or otherwise. If nothing else, it's illustrative of how the consequences of our actions can ripple outward on a macro scale, having unintended consequences for good or ill far beyond our limited knowledge and immediate circle.

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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:25 pm

Emmet wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:22 pm
What do folks think about the comments related to Pema Chodron...
Dana is not confined to dropping a dollar in the box at the door to the practice hall, it's also generosity of spirit; giving people the benefit of the doubt, and thinking the best of them. Private conversations are impossible to corroborate, and I'm committed to the old-fashioned notion that someone's innocent until proven guilty. What I find disturbing about this is when considered in toto; the consistent accounts of several others of how high-ranking officials in the organization allegedly aided and abetted in a pattern of exploitation and cover-up, including sexual assault and statutory rape, how several accounts spoke of this as an "open secret" in the upper echelons of the organization, and Ethan Nichtern's statement detailing how promotion and advancement within the organization was inextricably linked to personal loyalty and devotion, not to the organization, but to the leader himself; a cult of personality. Pema Chodron is a high-ranking leader in that organization, and innocent or guilty, when this shit hits the fan everyone in that inner circle is going to get splattered, justly or otherwise. If nothing else, it's illustrative of how the consequences of our actions can ripple outward on a macro scale, having unintended consequences for good or ill far beyond our limited knowledge and immediate circle.
So you are accusing Venerable Pema Chodronin covering up the abuse? That's a pretty serious accusation.

Now back it up.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Queequeg
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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Queequeg » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:10 pm

I don't see that Emmet made any accusations against Pema Chodron. He actually points out that people are innocent until proven guilty but goes on to point out that its hard to escape guilt by association.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Malcolm
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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:18 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:25 pm
Emmet wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:22 pm
What do folks think about the comments related to Pema Chodron...
Dana is not confined to dropping a dollar in the box at the door to the practice hall, it's also generosity of spirit; giving people the benefit of the doubt, and thinking the best of them. Private conversations are impossible to corroborate, and I'm committed to the old-fashioned notion that someone's innocent until proven guilty. What I find disturbing about this is when considered in toto; the consistent accounts of several others of how high-ranking officials in the organization allegedly aided and abetted in a pattern of exploitation and cover-up, including sexual assault and statutory rape, how several accounts spoke of this as an "open secret" in the upper echelons of the organization, and Ethan Nichtern's statement detailing how promotion and advancement within the organization was inextricably linked to personal loyalty and devotion, not to the organization, but to the leader himself; a cult of personality. Pema Chodron is a high-ranking leader in that organization, and innocent or guilty, when this shit hits the fan everyone in that inner circle is going to get splattered, justly or otherwise. If nothing else, it's illustrative of how the consequences of our actions can ripple outward on a macro scale, having unintended consequences for good or ill far beyond our limited knowledge and immediate circle.
So you are accusing Venerable Pema Chodronin covering up the abuse? That's a pretty serious accusation.

Now back it up.
Pretty sure he is only saying that everyone in the upper reaches of the Shambhala organization is going to suffer a hit to their reputations, whether directly involved or not.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:20 pm

the consistent accounts of several others of how high-ranking officials in the organization allegedly aided and abetted in a pattern of exploitation and cover-up, including sexual assault and statutory rape
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:24 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:20 pm
the consistent accounts of several others of how high-ranking officials in the organization allegedly aided and abetted in a pattern of exploitation and cover-up, including sexual assault and statutory rape
Right, this is a consistent account in the reports. That does not mean he is impugning PC directly.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:26 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:24 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:20 pm
the consistent accounts of several others of how high-ranking officials in the organization allegedly aided and abetted in a pattern of exploitation and cover-up, including sexual assault and statutory rape
Right, this is a consistent account in the reports. That does not mean he is impugning PC directly.
Impugning indirectly. Hinting at. Alluding to. Indicating. Suggesting. Etc...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:31 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:26 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:24 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:20 pm
Right, this is a consistent account in the reports. That does not mean he is impugning PC directly.
Impugning indirectly. Hinting at. Alluding to. Indicating. Suggesting. Etc...
So what? PC was directly accused in the reports of telling some women who complained to her of being sexually assaulted by a teacher that the women in question enjoyed her assault, after first denying that a sexual assault could have happened. If true, seriously gross. In any case, Emmets point stands -- everyone who is in the upper echelon of Shambhala International is going to have their reputation damaged. As it stands now, the organization is damaged goods.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:33 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:51 pm
Be warned: generally these discussions become a festival of rumor and gossip, often crossing the line into libel.
Umm, this website is based in the US, and libel charges are incredibly hard to bring in the US. It is not like England, etc.


For context, this is the charge listed in the third report:
" I was raped at the age of 21 by a Shambhala Center director. This led to a pregnancy and then a miscarriage. About a year later I approached Pema Chödrön to disclose what had happened. As a respected practitioner and also as a woman, it was my expectation that I would find an ally.
Instead, Ani Pema told me bluntly, "I don't believe you." I was shattered. After further discussion with her, Ani Pema then said, “Well, I wasn't there, but if it's true I suspect that you were into it."
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:36 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:31 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:26 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:24 pm


Right, this is a consistent account in the reports. That does not mean he is impugning PC directly.
Impugning indirectly. Hinting at. Alluding to. Indicating. Suggesting. Etc...
So what? PC was directly accused in the reports of telling some women who complained to her of being sexually assaulted by a teacher that the women in question enjoyed her assault, after first denying that a sexual assault could have happened. If true, seriously gross. In any case, Emmets point stands -- everyone who is in the upper echelon of Shambhala International is going to have their reputation damaged. As it stands now, the organization is damaged goods.
What I am asking for in this thread is for people to substantiate their claims. As such, please post the relevant section from the report.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:For context, this is the charge listed in the third report:
You beat me to it. Thank you.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:33 pm
Umm, this website is based in the US, and libel charges are incredibly hard to bring in the US. It is not like England, etc.
This is quite irrelevant. Just because it may difficult to be prosecuted for it, does not mean that a statement is not libelous.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:41 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:37 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:33 pm
Umm, this website is based in the US, and libel charges are incredibly hard to bring in the US. It is not like England, etc.
This is quite irrelevant. Just because it may difficult to be prosecuted for it, does not mean that a statement is not libelous.
Libel is a legal standard that must be met in a court of law. In other words, PC or anyone else must prove the statement damaged their reputation. In US law, that is very hard to prove, and there is no way any statement here could be construed as libel.

Since the statement as included in a report by a third party investigator, it is not libelous at all.
Last edited by Malcolm on Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:45 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:41 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:37 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:33 pm
Umm, this website is based in the US, and libel charges are incredibly hard to bring in the US. It is not like England, etc.
This is quite irrelevant. Just because it may difficult to be prosecuted for it, does not mean that a statement is not libelous.
Libel is a legal standard that must be met in a court of law. In other words, PC or anyone else must prove the statement damaged their reputation. In US law, that is very hard to prove, and there is no way any statement here could be construed as libel.
I am trying to set the bar high as possible so that this thread does not degenerate (like all previous threads on this topic) into personal attacks and slander.

As such I am asking people to SUBSTANTIATE THEIR CLAIMS. It is not much to ask.

Can we finish with the irrelevant aside now?

Thank you.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Emmet
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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Emmet » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:03 pm

So you are accusing Venerable Pema Chodronin covering up the abuse?
At no point have I accused anyone of anything; I leave that to the alleged victims (I did post sources). Someone asked what I thought, and to the best of my ability I responded thoughtfully.

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