Page 8 of 9

Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:34 am
by anjali
Several posts split to This Western Dharma experiment has been unsuccessful.

Back to the topic...

Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:51 pm
by anjali

Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:19 pm
by Greg
It's pretty damning, mostly a confirmation of a lot of what was already known, plus an acknowledgement that many people did not feel comfortable participating in a report that was commissioned to be delivered to Osel Mukpo's personal attorney.

I don't see any way for the community to credibly continue with Osel Mukpo in any sort of leadership position, and yet he seems to believe he isn't going anywhere other than lying low for a few months. https://www.reddit.com/r/ShambhalaBuddh ... community/

Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:41 pm
by Nemo
So the report they paid for is damning. When your hired legal guns turn on you that means you are one dirty snake.🐍 Damn lucky they are in Canada. That was prescient. In the US the lawsuit damages would absolutely bankrupt the entire organization.

Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:02 am
by PeterC
The whole thing is so depressingly predictable. Mukpo doesn’t have a lot of alternative career options, so after some personal “retreat and reflection” time he’ll just get back on the money train. His cabal are clearly profoundly delusional and/or so heavily invested in this that they can’t see that there’s no “way forward” involving Mukpo, and will continue to support him. Some form of a sangha will remain, though their teacher is manifestly unqualified. Many people associated will spend subsequent lifetimes in the hell realms.

Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:21 am
by Adamantine
I heard he just split to India, or Nepal with his family. Maybe just a regular seasonal New Years trip... or maybe timed to this report. We’ll see if he returns anytime soon.

Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:33 am
by anjali
I don't think it is coincidental that the italiced phrases in the following two quotes are similarly worded. The first is from Mukpo,
https://www.reddit.com/r/ShambhalaBuddhism/comments/an9tuy/email_from_osel_mukpo_to_the_shambhala_community/ wrote: It is important to me that you examine your own reasons for being part of this community. If you feel that this work is personally meaningful to you, then I invite you to join me as we navigate our future together.
The second is from the Iterim Board on the second page of the final report:
https://shambhala.org/index.php?file=2019/02/2-3-19-WH-Report-Final-Package.pdf wrote: In the midst of releasing these reports, we are continuing to plan for Shambhala Day and to fundraise for the continuity of the Shambhala organization. We do this not in the spirit of business as usual, but in the spirit of the natural unfolding of a new year and the recognition that these teachings have power and meaning for many of us. Together, we have something very worthwhile to continue – even if we do not yet know how this will evolve.
I think these two quotes pretty much telegraph the approach Mukpo and Shambhala will take moving toward. Shambhala will continue to fundraise and Mukpo with continue to be closely connected. Is this really surprising?

Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:43 am
by Queequeg
If you're not personally sucked into this and have the disinterest to take it in full, this is a great opportunity to take some lessons in navigating the spiritual life.

Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:51 am
by Nemo
anjali wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:33 am
I think these two quotes pretty much telegraph the approach Mukpo and Shambhala will take moving toward. Shambhala will continue to fundraise and Mukpo with continue to SPEND IT.
Fixed that for you.

Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:07 am
by passel
Nemo wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:41 pm
So the report they paid for is damning. When your hired legal guns turn on you that means you are one dirty snake.🐍 Damn lucky they are in Canada. That was prescient. In the US the lawsuit damages would absolutely bankrupt the entire organization.
Knee-jerk cynicism aside, when you hire a firm for an independent investigation, they have a fiduciary duty to come to independent conclusions. This is standard in the profession. If you doubt how independent paid investigators can be, read the Lewis Silkin report commissioned and paid for by Rigpa International (with their feet to the fire.) It's easy enough to find and the methodology is laid out in the introduction. It was a good piece of work. Groups should be commissioning these kinds of investigation waaaaay before things go off the rails.

Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:34 am
by PeterC
Nemo wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:51 am
anjali wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:33 am
I think these two quotes pretty much telegraph the approach Mukpo and Shambhala will take moving toward. Shambhala will continue to fundraise and Mukpo with continue to SPEND IT.
Fixed that for you.
Indeed

The thing that really annoys me about this and, to a large extent, the Rigpa debacle, is the utter pusillanimity and complicity of the "leadership" of the organizations. They admit that their teachers have done wrong and harmed people. This should imply that someone, somewhere takes responsibility for this - that there are some consequences. Yet both organizations go on fundraising with essentially the same administrative team in place that enabled these offenses in the first place, and reaffirm their commitment to the teacher who did these things.

Rigpa made a slightly more effective show of changing seats and expressing contrition. But we all know that a year or so from now, Lakhar will have been miraculously cured of his cancer after a period of deep retreat from which he emerges with new, profound teachings and a renewed love for the sangha.

These people are basically Tibetan Jimmy Swaggarts. Actually they're worse, Swaggart paid the people who had sex with him, and he never told them that it would help them go to heaven faster.

Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:52 pm
by Greg
anjali wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:33 am
I don't think it is coincidental that the italiced phrases in the following two quotes are similarly worded. The first is from Mukpo,
https://www.reddit.com/r/ShambhalaBuddhism/comments/an9tuy/email_from_osel_mukpo_to_the_shambhala_community/ wrote: It is important to me that you examine your own reasons for being part of this community. If you feel that this work is personally meaningful to you, then I invite you to join me as we navigate our future together.
The second is from the Iterim Board on the second page of the final report:
https://shambhala.org/index.php?file=2019/02/2-3-19-WH-Report-Final-Package.pdf wrote: In the midst of releasing these reports, we are continuing to plan for Shambhala Day and to fundraise for the continuity of the Shambhala organization. We do this not in the spirit of business as usual, but in the spirit of the natural unfolding of a new year and the recognition that these teachings have power and meaning for many of us. Together, we have something very worthwhile to continue – even if we do not yet know how this will evolve.
I think these two quotes pretty much telegraph the approach Mukpo and Shambhala will take moving toward. Shambhala will continue to fundraise and Mukpo with continue to be closely connected. Is this really surprising?
Very astute observation. Someone elsewhere observed that it has echoes of the "grooming" that many sex abusers do. The dichotomy set up is "people who find Buddhism meaningful" in contrast with "people who will no longer support a leadership role for Osel Mukpo."

Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:58 pm
by Queequeg
Greg wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:52 pm
Very astute observation. Someone elsewhere observed that it has echoes of the "grooming" that many sex abusers do. The dichotomy set up is "people who find Buddhism meaningful" in contrast with "people who will no longer support a leadership role for Osel Mukpo."
More generally, that's cult psychology.

People's ideas of salvation/awakening/etc. get wrapped into the group. They can't imagine salvation/awakening/etc. outside that context, and so, they rationalize and stay through all kinds of stuff. Also why the leaders work very hard so that the spell doesn't get broken - preventing people from going outside the group. These particular messages are so sly. This is master pimp cult leader level seduction - its definitely similar to sex abusers - its setting up an opportunity in people's minds to say to themselves they want it and make the commitment. What is really grotesque is that the decision to recommit further cements the person's connection by making them undertake further sacrifices that will be that much harder to break later on. Nobody wants to wake up from a dream and realized they've been hustled. People will choose to stay entranced to put that kind of existential reckoning off.

The comparison to sex is on point IMHO. There always seems to be some sex dynamics, explicit or implicit, in these kinds of cults based on charismatic leaders, and probably why so often when that kind of energy is tapped, there is almost always a sex component to it.

Libido, man. Freud was onto something.

Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:22 pm
by anjali
Petition: Shambhala Buddhism Students seek to split from “authoritarian” structure

From the conclusion of the petition,
...
We call on Shambhala International (SI) to take immediate action to modify its unique institutional structure as the organizational center of both 1) an authoritarian esoteric tradition with a body of sworn devotee students loyal to Mukpo, and 2) a highly accessible public educational meditation institution. We do not hold high hopes.

Yet this is, in the end, our sangha, not theirs. We are Shambhala.

We believe the public (outer) Shambhala teachings are robust enough to support a non-hierarchical practice community.

To this end, we call on individual Shambhala centers to demand that SI facilitate the cleavage of the two aspects described above by recognizing and supporting the centers’ transition to full organizational and financial autonomy. We also hope that local centers will explore reinventing their own organizational structures on a model of consensus and direct democracy. We are encouraged to see some centers hosting teachers, like Lama Rod Owens and Lama Tsultrim Allione, from other lineages and traditions and hope this pattern will emerge as a viable future for these centers, perhaps bound together in an informal consortium.

Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:23 pm
by PeterC
...
Yet this is, in the end, our sangha, not theirs. We are Shambhala.
Well...yes and no.

To the extent that they're teaching Dharma outside the Vajrayana, sure, they can set themselves up as a new Dharma organization and teach, just as anyone can.

However if what they intend to teach was from termas, then no, not really. They would need to have fulfilled the conditions for passing those teachings on. Doing so against the explicit wishes of the guru who gave them would be out of the question.

While I sympathize with them, they're in a difficult position. Either they accept that Mukpo Jr. was a qualified guru, and therefore they have samaya with him, with all that entails, and therefore cannot be going against his will: or they accept that he wasn't qualified at all, no samaya existed, and they're starting with a blank sheet of paper, onto which they could choose to write elements of the Shambhala pedagogy if they wanted to, but it would be them making things up.

I would also guess that all the IP to do with Shambhala that can be legally secured has been so, and that the organization will litigate to protect it. They will fight tooth and nail to prevent their revenue base from keeping the money to fund a competitor.

Honestly the best option for them is to go and find another reputable sangha to join. It's also the technically correct option, because at this point it's very hard to believe that Mukpo was/is a qualified guru. Salvaging something from Shambhala is in any case going to be very difficult.

Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:12 pm
by Greg
That’s true of the Shambhala teachings as a terma cycle. But I think they could keep the general style, form, and inspiration of Shambhala and use it as a context for other Kagyu and Nyingma lamas to teach Buddhism within. I think that could be worthwhile.

Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:56 pm
by Grigoris
Greg wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:12 pm
That’s true of the Shambhala teachings as a terma cycle. But I think they could keep the general style, form, and inspiration of Shambhala and use it as a context for other Kagyu and Nyingma lamas to teach Buddhism within. I think that could be worthwhile.
There would be no reason to keep the form/style. They could just go with mainstream Kagyu and Nyingma.

Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:33 pm
by Nemo
It certainly is an interesting teaching about hierarchy and ownership.

Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:34 pm
by Greg
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:56 pm
Greg wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:12 pm
That’s true of the Shambhala teachings as a terma cycle. But I think they could keep the general style, form, and inspiration of Shambhala and use it as a context for other Kagyu and Nyingma lamas to teach Buddhism within. I think that could be worthwhile.
There would be no reason to keep the form/style. They could just go with mainstream Kagyu and Nyingma.
There is a reason - people see value in it.

Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:37 pm
by smcj
There would be no reason to keep the form/style. They could just go with mainstream Kagyu and Nyingma.
I believe they don’t want the limitations of a traditional approach.