Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

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Queequeg
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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Queequeg » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:07 pm

Hearsay is hearsay. Rules of evidence apply in court. That said, the rules of evidence have compelling logic and are helpful as a general matter to help people evaluate information.

After considering it, if the allegations about PC are reproduced in the report verbatim, then its not hearsay. There are other reasons it might not be admitted into court - lack of foundation, inability to cross examine the witness, etc.

IMHO, if the authors of the report did not vet the allegations against PC, then they were irresponsible in publishing it, especially in the manner that they did - they presented the allegations AS TRUE, without even footnoting the nature of the information presented.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by PeterC » Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:19 pm

The comments in the report about PC would obviously not be admissible in a court as presented here because they would, in that context, be hearsay, as indeed are large parts of the entire report. There is a lot of information that a primary witness has relayed to a third party.

But as I said, that is not the point, because this is not a legal process. “Hearsay” and “not hearsay” do not apply.

The preparers of the report have no responsibility to vet anything. They are relaying information they’ve received and providing enough background on how they received the information such that the reader can determine its reliability. That is exactly what they did with the PC information - if you read the report, they are explicit that this was a single-source anonymous report.

As with most things in life and the dharma, you have to decide what is and isn’t reliable.

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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by smcj » Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:04 pm

In an environment of group hysteria, a single unsubstantiated accusation can have devastating consequences regardless of accuracy or motivation. For instance people can use that kind of opportunity to settle old scores of whatever stripe.

Group hysteria is a dangerous thing.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:19 pm
No, that is not the case. At this point, there is a 72% chance that Dems win the House, according to 538.
Too late: The serpents egg has hatched.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by PeterC » Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:15 pm

smcj wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:04 pm
In an environment of group hysteria, a single unsubstantiated accusation can have devastating consequences regardless of accuracy or motivation. For instance people can use that kind of opportunity to settle old scores of whatever stripe.

Group hysteria is a dangerous thing.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials
I don’t see any particular hysteria here. There is a certain amount of group denial in the shambhala sangha, but nobody is beating down their door trying to lynch them.

It would also be odd to conceal allegations of abuse for fear of damaging someone’s reputation. Indeed that excuse has been used for decades to cover up abuse.

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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Queequeg » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:37 pm

PeterC wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:19 pm
The preparers of the report have no responsibility to vet anything. They are relaying information they’ve received and providing enough background on how they received the information such that the reader can determine its reliability. That is exactly what they did with the PC information - if you read the report, they are explicit that this was a single-source anonymous report.
This is the problem: their explanation of the methodology for obtaining these statements is in the first report. This allegation against PC is in the third report. There is no indication that this allegation against PC is an unverified statement in the section where it appears or even in the document. This sort of sloppiness is found throughout the report.

It is irresponsible. Whether they had a responsibility to do anything, they undertook the responsibility when they claimed they were being responsible.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:46 am

PeterC wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:38 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:46 pm
Anders wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:06 pm


It's not illegal but it certainly puts her as part of the problem, whose interests are with the establishment over the victims. Since the truth of the claim is yet to be ascertained but nonetheless weighed enough to be included in the report, it really would be far better for the integrity of the process if she recused herself.

@johnnyDangerous I frankly find it offensive that witness reports of grave personal injury are dismissed as "random hearsay". It seems that there are no thread standards for shaming the victim here.
Legally, I think it would be something akin to hearsay. It wasn't even presented in the section of victim stories, and was somewhat incidental to the section of the report it was presented in. if you want to extrapolate it as something more, and claim I am saying something i'm not, that's your right. Maybe next time you can ask for clarification on what I mean instead of publicly accusing me of not caring about the personal experience of sexual assault/abuse victims, in fact, i'm gonna request that you do just that next time an assumption like that comes up for you.

The "random" and "hearsay" bits have to do with the document, and how that particular personal account is presented within it. I have no way of knowing anything about the veracity of the information within the specific account one way or another, and the document itself does a very poor job of establishing that veracity - that's precisely the problem, not the personal accounts themselves.

It is not hearsay, as this is not a legal process. There are no rules of evidence. All that’s happening is that two people are collecting information and presenting it to the public. They have been transparent about the source and nature of that information so that the public can make their own determination as to its reliability, which is exactly what we are doing in this discussion.

Clearly people would prefer to know this information about PC and assess it themselves rather than not know it. I don’t think they did the wrong thing by including it in the report.

What the investigators perhaps are doing wrong is not turning the whole thing over to law enforcement. This last report feels like it’s crossed that line.
I don't feel like they were wrong to do so either, i'm just not sure such an uncorroborated report should entail any action, particularly if PC is/was not even given a chance to respond to an anonymous allegation. I appreciate the effort they are making, the document just jumps all over the place and seems to have a pretty muddled meaning to me. However I am not a Shambhala practitioner and I wish them the best with the process of course, i'm sure there's plenty I don't see.
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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by PeterC » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:42 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:46 am
I appreciate the effort they are making, the document just jumps all over the place and seems to have a pretty muddled meaning to me. However I am not a Shambhala practitioner and I wish them the best with the process of course, i'm sure there's plenty I don't see.

I agree. It’s well-intentioned but (a) this has gone beyond the resources of a couple of volunteers, and (b) their objectives of healing, reconciliation and whatever are probably futile. I wish the shambhala sangha the best, but the likely best outcome here is shutting up shop and the practitioners finding new homes.

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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Queequeg » Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:30 am

The project strayed beyond its nominal scope of healing, it seems, and got into criticism of leadership. That's where publishing anonymous allegations to criticize PC was irresponsible.

But it should be clear - if Shambhala fails, its not because of this report or because anyone made anonymous statements that were published.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by PeterC » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:26 am

Queequeg wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:30 am
The project strayed beyond its nominal scope of healing, it seems, and got into criticism of leadership. That's where publishing anonymous allegations to criticize PC was irresponsible.
Pretty hard to see how it couldn’t get into criticizing leadership when the starting point was exposing sexual abuse by the leader of shambhala.

We have both stated our opinions on the PC information, I’m sure we can agree to disagree. In any case she’s not exactly received the Harvey Weinstein treatment.

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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Grigoris » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:23 am

PeterC wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:26 am
Queequeg wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:30 am
The project strayed beyond its nominal scope of healing, it seems, and got into criticism of leadership. That's where publishing anonymous allegations to criticize PC was irresponsible.
Pretty hard to see how it couldn’t get into criticizing leadership when the starting point was exposing sexual abuse by the leader of shambhala.

We have both stated our opinions on the PC information, I’m sure we can agree to disagree. In any case she’s not exactly received the Harvey Weinstein treatment.
How can you even compare the two? Harvey Weinstein is a rapist. VENERABLE Pema Chodron merely did not find the testimony of a particular woman credible.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Norwegian » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:27 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:23 am
PeterC wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:26 am
Queequeg wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:30 am
The project strayed beyond its nominal scope of healing, it seems, and got into criticism of leadership. That's where publishing anonymous allegations to criticize PC was irresponsible.
Pretty hard to see how it couldn’t get into criticizing leadership when the starting point was exposing sexual abuse by the leader of shambhala.

We have both stated our opinions on the PC information, I’m sure we can agree to disagree. In any case she’s not exactly received the Harvey Weinstein treatment.
How can you even compare the two? Harvey Weinstein is a rapist. VENERABLE Pema Chodron merely did not find the testimony of a particular woman credible.
So while I agree that there's a big, big difference between the two (naturally enough), if we are to cite Pema Chodron from the report, it is not enough to state that she "merely did not find the testimony credible". That in itself while bad if the woman was raped and if she was traumatized trying to find help and support, is not as bad as what Pema Chodron allegedly said afterwards (which should also be included in this context):
" I was raped at the age of 21 by a Shambhala Center director. This led to a pregnancy and then a miscarriage. About a year later I approached Pema Chödrön to disclose what had happened. As a respected practitioner and also as a woman, it was my expectation that I would find an ally.

Instead, Ani Pema told me bluntly, "I don't believe you." I was shattered. After further discussion with her, Ani Pema then said, “Well, I wasn't there, but if it's true I suspect that you were into it."
If this is what she said to the woman, then that is completely disgusting.

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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Grigoris » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:33 am

Norwegian wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:27 am
If this is what she said to the woman, then that is completely disgusting.
1. Do you think that just because Venerable Pema Chodron is a woman and a Buddhist monastic it means that she is not inculcated into patriarchy??? 2. Like I said before: when you are raped you go to the police, to a lawyer, to a public prosecutor, to a hospital, to a doctor, etc... NOT to a nun.

How can you possibly expect a nun to solve the particular issue?

Even if she said this, it still does not put her in the same league as Weinstein.

Isn't it also funny how in reams of statement everybody here is focusing on the one statement made by Venerable Pema Chodron and ignoring the actual problem of systematic rapes?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Norwegian » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:45 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:33 am
Norwegian wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:27 am
If this is what she said to the woman, then that is completely disgusting.
1. Do you think that just because Venerable Pema Chodron is a woman and a monastic it means that she is not inculcated into patriarchy??? 2. Like I said before: when you are raped you go to the police, to a lawyer, to a public prosecutor, to a hospital, to a doctor, etc... NOT to a nun.

How can you possibly expect a nun to solve the particular issue?
First off, I never said anything about Pema Chodron being a woman and a monastic nor did I talk about the patriarchy. If you respond to a post, respond to what was written, not what you believe was written.

None of this has anything to do with what she allegedly said (and I say allegedly because I have no way of knowing if it is true or not), and when you cite her above you conveniently ignored the second part of her alleged comment. That part is actually quite important here.

So, either you say nothing, or you include both things. If in this case this is something that happened, then saying to the woman that got raped she suspects she was into it, is so much more worse than just saying I don't believe you, by itself alone.

That second line must be included. If you reduce it down to "I don't believe you" then that is a different situation entirely. Not a good one, but certainly not as horrendous as what the second line brings to the table.

As for who the woman should turn to, absolutely she should go to the police etc., but humans don't always make rational choices. Plenty of people who have been raped have avoided going to the police for a number of reasons.

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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by PeterC » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:58 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:23 am
PeterC wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:26 am
Queequeg wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:30 am
The project strayed beyond its nominal scope of healing, it seems, and got into criticism of leadership. That's where publishing anonymous allegations to criticize PC was irresponsible.
Pretty hard to see how it couldn’t get into criticizing leadership when the starting point was exposing sexual abuse by the leader of shambhala.

We have both stated our opinions on the PC information, I’m sure we can agree to disagree. In any case she’s not exactly received the Harvey Weinstein treatment.
How can you even compare the two? Harvey Weinstein is a rapist. VENERABLE Pema Chodron merely did not find the testimony of a particular woman credible.
I didn’t compare the two.

QQ was raising concerns that releasing unsubstantiated criticism of PC would cause an unfair rush to judgment. That is a very valid concern, because these days accusation=guilt for many people. Now Weinstein happened to be guilty, but I chose him as an example of how that happens. I could have picked many other names. My point was that no rush to judgement had happened with PC.

QQ’s argument is that the risk of that happening suggests the writers of these reports should only have released information into the public domain when they had good corroboration for it. I disagree, but this is a matter of judgement on which reasonable people can disagree.

(For the avoidance of doubt: I am not saying that the rush to judgement for Weinstein and others was a bad thing. Traditionally public opinion has sided with the abusers. In recent years that has started to reverse, and now it’s more common to see presumptive support for the victims. Since false accusations are statistically far less likely than denied true accusations, this isn’t a bad thing.)

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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Queequeg » Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:46 pm

See my note above about the report authors guidelines for the anonymous reports. They aren't supposed to name people. And yet PC was named.

Motivation and intent of the report authors is very much in question.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Queequeg » Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:49 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:27 am
If this is what she said to the woman, then that is completely disgusting.
Which is why the authors had a responsibility to not run the account without corroborating. That is a serious charge.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Malcolm
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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Malcolm » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:29 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:37 pm

It is irresponsible. Whether they had a responsibility to do anything, they undertook the responsibility when they claimed they were being responsible.
They clearly felt they had a higher responsibility to make these various allegations known and the names of those accused, which in fact are found throughout all three reports. The only names that are redacted are the alleged victims and reporters of the allegations. Whether this is "proper" or not, it is clearly a response to what appears to be pervasive and systematic shielding of elite Shambhalians from the consequences of their actions. It is clear they are trying to stimulate prosecutorial interest in these cases.
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-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Malcolm » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:30 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:49 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:27 am
If this is what she said to the woman, then that is completely disgusting.
Which is why the authors had a responsibility to not run the account without corroborating. That is a serious charge.
There is nothing criminal about the alleged statement by made PC. It's just a bit appalling, if true. If PC thinks it is libelous, she can take it to court. In Canada, she might even win.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.

Post by Grigoris » Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:52 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:45 am
First off, I never said anything about Pema Chodron being a woman and a monastic nor did I talk about the patriarchy. If you respond to a post, respond to what was written, not what you believe was written.
Oh, I see, we should just conveniently ignore the wider context of the situation so that we can focus on the details that allow us to feel so smugly superior that we can condemn others. Okay. I'll keep that in mind.
and when you cite her above you conveniently ignored the second part of her alleged comment.
Actually that was the part I was referring to when I said: "Do you think that just because Venerable Pema Chodron is a woman and a monastic it means that she is not inculcated into patriarchy???"
So, either you say nothing, or you include both things. If in this case this is something that happened, then saying to the woman that got raped she suspects she was into it, is so much more worse than just saying I don't believe you, by itself alone.
Like I said: "Do you think that just because Venerable Pema Chodron is a woman and a monastic it means that she is not inculcated into patriarchy???"
That second line must be included. If you reduce it down to "I don't believe you" then that is a different situation entirely. Not a good one, but certainly not as horrendous as what the second line brings to the table.
Horrendous is what Sakyong apparently did to the women, what Venerable Pema Chodron said is actually a quite common response to rape victims. Not that it makes it correct though...
As for who the woman should turn to, absolutely she should go to the police etc., but humans don't always make rational choices. Plenty of people who have been raped have avoided going to the police for a number of reasons.
This is very (sad but) true.

My point is though that you cannot expect a solution from a female monastic for an issue like this. It is not their job. It is not what they are trained for. It is not something they are expected to deal with.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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