Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

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cyril
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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by cyril » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:41 am

I bow down to H.H.D.L. for having the balls to step into the tiger's mouth and spell out the naked truth. Speaking the truth in such degenerate times is truly the deed of a bodhisattva.
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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Grigoris » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:30 am

And still nobody has "the balls" to answer to my questions.
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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by amanitamusc » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:48 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:15 pm
Oh, there is one other thing too: Why should I care what the Dalai Lama's opinion on migration policy is anyway? What is the basis for his authority on the subject?
You are inside and HHDL is not. People can piss up a racist rope all they want using HHDL statements for support.
It does not make it true.

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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by amanitamusc » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:51 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:15 pm
Oh, there is one other thing too: Why should I care what the Dalai Lama's opinion on migration policy is anyway? What is the basis for his authority on the subject?
You are inside and HHDL is not. People can piss up a racist rope all they want using HHDL statements for support.
It does not make it true.

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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Miroku » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:01 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:14 pm
So which Europeans does it belong to then? The Muslim Europeans or the Christian Europeans?

Because the main issue being raised here is the religious beliefs of the refugees and migrants, something which overlooks the fact that there are Christian refugees and migrants too.

And overlooks the fact that there are European countries that have Muslim majorities.

And overlooks the fact that there is not such thing as a European anyway.

And overlooks the fact that Europe actually does not belong to anybody.

Nobody has come up with a logical or reasonable response to any of these facts yet.
Okay I will try to gather them good old "balls" and try to answer your questions or at least clarify why I shared this.

It would be silly to claim that muslims have nothing to do in Europe. Or that we shouldn't take refugees in. They are forced to live in those camps and that is horrible and also mindboggling why nothing is done about it.

Nobody is overlooking that there are these countries. They are not the issue here.

Well, yeah ultimatel there is nothing "European" but there is still the relative where there are things which are labeled as European.

Again, it does not, but on the relative level tell it to the states that what is "theirs" doesn't really belong to anyone.

Okay and now to why I shared it. I really do not see anything bad on what H.H. said and I agree with it (maybe instead of should rebuild I'd use "would be nice if ..."). And I do not see why it suddenly makes me, according to you Grigoris, into an Übermensch or a racist. You cannot ignore that there is a huge chance of an negative impact of this refugee situation. And it is already happening. The EU is bickering, right wing parties are successful and etc. This is a climate into which we want to bring people with different cultures and etc. There will be many problems. I would love it if people just were cool about it. It would be amazing. But we are in samsara and it won't get better. Is it refugees fault? Nope. They just want to survive and live better lives. Will there be a radicalization on both sides? Probably yes. And that is scary. Plus what is so bad about integration? You can integrate and keep you cultural and religious identity, you just only play by the same hopefuly secular rules. Integration does not have to be bland.

However, I am very glad you do your job Grigoris despite it being really hard. Sorry if this thread angers you too much.
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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by cyril » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:13 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:30 am
And still nobody has "the balls" to answer to my questions.
So which Europeans does it belong to then? The Muslim Europeans or the Christian Europeans?
Imho, „Europe belongs to the Europeans” means Spain belongs to the Spanish people, France belongs to the French people, Greece belongs to the Greeks and so on. The same way Tibet belongs to the Tibetans, btw. EU alone has 28 states so, instead of enumerating each and everyone, he used the blanket term „Europeans”. Me thinks this is common-sense.
Because the main issue being raised here is the religious beliefs of the refugees and migrants, something which overlooks the fact that there are Christian refugees and migrants too.
I didn't have the chance to read the entire discourse of HHDL but I don't think he raised the issue of religious beliefs. What HHDL said is “Receive them, help them, educate them... but ultimately they should develop their own country”. I see nothing incorrect or controversial about the refugees eventually returning home to rebuild their own countries. The very definition of a refugee is someone who temporarily cannot return to his own country because of persecution, violence, etc. As opposed to an imigrant, settler or colonist.
And overlooks the fact that there are European countries that have Muslim majorities.
Albanians, Bosniaks and Kosovars are free to do as they please in their own countries. Funny thing is you don't see many refugees rushing to these destinations.
And overlooks the fact that there is not such thing as a European anyway.
We agree to disagree. There is such thing as European identity, culture and common history.
And overlooks the fact that Europe actually does not belong to anybody.
Each European suverane state belongs to its own people. It is true that the current EU administration seems to work hard to undermine the national states' authority and legitimacy but I doubt they will ever fully succeed; just look at Brexit.
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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Grigoris » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:10 pm

Miroku wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:01 pm
Well, yeah ultimatel there is nothing "European" but there is still the relative where there are things which are labeled as European.
No, even at the relative level there is nothing really "European".

For example: state me a common European trait shared by Welsh and Calabrians.
The EU is bickering, right wing parties are successful and etc.
Setting up one group of humans as "others" in order to forward a political agenda is hardly evidence of the divisive effects of migration. It is evidence of how some groups use certain (imaginary) phenomena in order to gain power. They did it with former-Eastern bloc migration. They do it with the gypsies. They did it with the Jews. Some Europeans divided themselves into Protestants and Catholics and spent a few hundred years slaughtering each other. Etc...

It looks like some people want to fall into the same trap, yet again.

And that is what angers me: ignorance of past mistakes.

If we hadn't screwed up like this in the past, I could excuse people's behaviour, they don't know better, so...

But we have fallen into this trap time and time again and here we are, AGAIN.

They still haven't discovered all the mass graves full of bodies from the Serbian genocide against the Muslim Bosnians but the hysteria which drove that genocide is being recycled as we speak.
bosnian-genocide.jpg
bosnian-genocide.jpg (98.7 KiB) Viewed 767 times
And all this on a BUDDHIST FORUM???
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Grigoris » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:35 pm

cyril wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:13 pm
Imho, „Europe belongs to the Europeans” means Spain belongs to the Spanish people, France belongs to the French people, Greece belongs to the Greeks and so on. The same way Tibet belongs to the Tibetans, btw. EU alone has 28 states so, instead of enumerating each and everyone, he used the blanket term „Europeans”. Me thinks this is common-sense.
Since you brought up the subject of Greece, I will give you a short lesson so that you understand how clueless your analysis is.

There was no such thing as Greece until well after the war of independence from the Ottoman Empire which started in 1821.

There were a number of different city states, that were constantly at war with each other.

Actually there was not even a unified Hellenic people. Different areas of what is now known as Greece developed very different civilisations. The two major groups: Aiolians and Ionians occupied different parts of this geographical location and colonised different areas too (there were three smaller groups too).

Let's jump ahead, shall we?

So after liberation from the Ottoman Empire all sorts of catastrophic wars broke out as different "nationalities" tried to claim a piece of the world for themselves.

Parts of what we now know as Greece were never "ethnically" Greek.

Refugees started to pour into Greece from Turkey, the Russian Black Sea regions, Bulgaria, Albania, etc (all of which were also not nation states, but parts of multinational empires) bringing with them their own customs, foods, dress and even languages.

The "local" (they were the ancestors of previous Aiolian colonisers) Greeks on the island where I live (for example) did not consider the refugees from Turkey as Greeks and there was considerable racism towards them. The same happened on the mainland.

The refugees from Soviet Russia had the hardest deal as they were also considered political enemies by the local right-wing junta, regardless of the fact that they were leaving Soviet Russia for political purposes.

Even now there is animosity between Cyprians and mainland Greeks. Cretans and the rest of Greece. Macedonians and Athenians, etc... And let's not even get into the current Macedonian issue, albeit to say that the Ancient Macedonians gave free passage to the invading Persian Empire which was hell bent on capturing Athens, which funnily enough was saved by the Athenians arch enemies: the Spartans.

So. As you can see, there is no real common Greek identity, let a lone a European one. If you ever decided to inform yourself you will find that this situation exists in every nation state.
I see nothing incorrect or controversial about the refugees eventually returning home to rebuild their own countries.
Neither do I. If they wish to return to their home countries.
The very definition of a refugee is someone who temporarily cannot return to his own country because of persecution, violence, etc.
No, that is not the very definition of a refugee.
We agree to disagree. There is such thing as European identity, culture and common history.
No, there is not. Show me an example of a common European... You can't because there is not.
Each European suverane state belongs to its own people.
No it does not. Do you know that people in the UK officially cannot even own the land the houses are built on, unless the Queen decides to give them a tract (part of being a member of nobility)?
It is true that the current EU administration seems to work hard to undermine the national states' authority and legitimacy but I doubt they will ever fully succeed; just look at Brexit.
Brexit is a farce. It is a problem, not a solution.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:50 pm

What shocks me here most is that some fifteen years ago saying words such as "England belongs to the English," or "Poland for Poles," let alone "Germany belongs to Germans" would be seen as an instance of absolute, hair-raising xenophobia and at the same time something so puerile that it could not really merit any public attention. It would be seen as an outlandish fringe of human sentiment and one belonging clearly and unequivocally to the insanities of the past. In the 1990s nobody would have said such words in the parliament and lived to tell the tale. Such words were shouted by boneheads, back then still sporting boots and harrington jackets, shunned by pretty much literally everybody else.

Now it is mainstream.

HHDL's choice of words is horrible -- if indeed these are his exact words (Reuters, the source of the 99% of news these days, does not report the incident at all. Business Insider is the media outlet whose piece everything else has been copying pretty much verbatim. For all I know it might be fake news. Also, the Business Insider piece includes mostly phrases HHDL allegedly spoke, to really understand what he said we would need to hear the whole speech. One does not even know the order in which these cut out phrases were uttered).

That said, his statement is clearly taken out of context, and the insane joy of the islamophobes and integralists is quite premature. He says, if the BI piece gets it right, that "Europe was 'morally responsible' for helping 'a refugee really facing danger against their life.'" That is just about as strong and as unequivocal a statement as one could make.

Then he says, "Receive them, help them, educate them... but ultimately they should develop their own country." Urging us again to help refugees, he is also explicit about how we Europeans ought to do so right now: "Receive them, help them, educate them." So yes, we take them in, yes, we keep the borders open, yes, we help them here and yes, we educate them. Frankly, it is even more than what any left-leaning governments are prepared to do right now. The bit about their "ultimately... develop[ing] their own country" is uncontroversial as well, and I am saying it a lifelong far-leftwinger. Sure enough, one cannot solve the political crises of the Middle East by relocating the population of the Middle East to Europe.

In its context the horrible phrase "I think that Europe belongs to the Europeans" is not so lurid at all, and one realises that no, HHDL does not suggest cultural segregation. He is not really into sipping tea and munching biscuits with Marine Le Pen either.
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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Norwegian » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:21 pm

treehuggingoctopus,

Here's what HHDL said in 2016, about the same issue: viewtopic.php?f=47&t=22869#p341204

Then now, in 2018:

English link: France24, source is AFP:
https://www.france24.com/en/20180912-da ... -europeans

Links in Swedish and Danish:

https://www.kristeligt-dagblad.dk/danma ... ockstjerne
https://samtiden.nu/2018/09/dalai-lama- ... atervanda/
https://www.sydsvenskan.se/2018-09-12/d ... europeerna
http://www.gp.se/nyheter/sverige/dalai- ... -1.8215577

From Kristeligt Dagblad, a journalist who was present at the event, cites what happened:
Et andet medie forsøger sig med et emne, som også burde vække genklang, og spørger, hvad Dalai Lama mener om den måde, flygtningene bliver behandlet på i Europa. Også i dette tilfælde ser Dalai Lamas svar ud til at komme bag på spørgeren.”Disse desperate mennesker, som er kommet i stort antal til Europa, skal have beskyttelse, men når der er fred, skal de vende hjem igen og være med til at opbygge deres egne lande. De skal tilbydes uddannelse, men de skal ikke blive permanent i Europa, det burde de også vide. Europa er for europæere.”Pressen rykker sig lidt i sæderne, og en journalist fra en radiostation hvisker, at det ikke var det svar, man havde forventet.
Basically, another journalist asks HHDL what he thinks about the way refugees are treated in Europe. HHDL says something like: "These desperate people, who have arrived in large numbers to Europe, should have protection. But when there's peace, they should return back home again, and help rebuild their own countries. They should be offered education, but they should not stay permanently in Europe, that they should know. Europe is for Europeans." And the journalist from KD says that the press seemingly reacts to what he said, by slightly squirming in their seats, and another journalists from a radio station whispers, that this wasn't the answer they expected.

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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by cyril » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:40 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:35 pm

There was no such thing as Greece until well after the war of independence from the Ottoman Empire which started in 1821.

There were a number of different city states, that were constantly at war with each other.

Actually there was not even a unified Hellenic people. Different areas of what is now known as Greece developed very different civilisations.
Indeed, there was no such thing as Greece but there was such thing as Hellenes and Hellenic identity. Grigoris, please correct me if I'm wrong but in order to compete in the ancient Olympic Games you had to be: a free man (not a slave), male and Greek. I even heard that initially Macedonians were not allowed to the Games because they were not considered Hellenic. Now, what would you call this other than Hellenic identity?

By your logic, there were no Italians prior to unification; just Venetians, Genovese, Fllorentines, etc often warring each other. No Germans prior to 1871, no Romanians prior to 1859, etc.
Do you know that people in the UK officially cannot even own the land the houses are built on, unless the Queen decides to give them a tract (part of being a member of nobility)?
Of course I do. Still, in the UK they periodically hold referendums on the issue of monarchy and so far, people have voted in the favour of it. So, to a certain extent, this is also the will of the British people.
Show me an example of a common European... You can't because there is not.
I'm not sure what you want me to show you. A common European phenotype? Why not just look in a mirror? I bet that's quite common in the Mediterranean area. For common Slavic, Germanic, etc faces, Google is your friend.
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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Grigoris » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:48 pm

cyril wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:40 pm
Indeed, there was no such thing as Greece but there was such thing as Hellenes and Hellenic identity.
Hellene is just the Greek word for Greek. The Minoans were Minoans, the Aiolians were Aiolians...
Grigoris, please correct me if I'm wrong but in order to compete in the ancient Olympic Games you had to be: a free man (not a slave), male and Greek. I even heard that initially Macedonians were not allowed to the Games because they were not considered Hellenic. Now, what would you call this other than Hellenic identity?
I don't know if that is true or not but I wouldn't say it to a modern Greek Macedonian, because they will punch your lights out. This merely highlights the fact that even the term Hellene (or Macedonian) is not a static or fixed concept, so how can the term European be so?

Actually, funnily enough, it was Alexander the Great that said that a Hellene is anybody that has received a Hellenic education/upbringing.
By your logic, there were no Italians prior to unification; just Venetians, Genovese, Fllorentines, etc often warring each other. No Germans prior to 1871, no Romanians prior to 1859, etc.
That is correct. Nationalities and nation states are a recent phenomenon. Standardised national languages are a recent phenomenon. Etc...
I'm not sure what you want me to show you. A common European phenotype? Why not just look in a mirror? I bet that's quite common in the Mediterranean area. For common Slavic, Germanic, etc faces, Google is your friend.
You just contradicted yourself. You just seperated what a minute ago were referring to as a common category (European), into three+ categories.

It is logical that you contradict yourself when the basis for your argument is so unstable (I would say non-existent).
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Grigoris » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:51 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:21 pm
treehuggingoctopus,

Here's what HHDL said in 2016, about the same issue: viewtopic.php?f=47&t=22869#p341204

Then now, in 2018:

English link: France24, source is AFP:
https://www.france24.com/en/20180912-da ... -europeans

Links in Swedish and Danish:

https://www.kristeligt-dagblad.dk/danma ... ockstjerne
https://samtiden.nu/2018/09/dalai-lama- ... atervanda/
https://www.sydsvenskan.se/2018-09-12/d ... europeerna
http://www.gp.se/nyheter/sverige/dalai- ... -1.8215577

From Kristeligt Dagblad, a journalist who was present at the event, cites what happened:
Et andet medie forsøger sig med et emne, som også burde vække genklang, og spørger, hvad Dalai Lama mener om den måde, flygtningene bliver behandlet på i Europa. Også i dette tilfælde ser Dalai Lamas svar ud til at komme bag på spørgeren.”Disse desperate mennesker, som er kommet i stort antal til Europa, skal have beskyttelse, men når der er fred, skal de vende hjem igen og være med til at opbygge deres egne lande. De skal tilbydes uddannelse, men de skal ikke blive permanent i Europa, det burde de også vide. Europa er for europæere.”Pressen rykker sig lidt i sæderne, og en journalist fra en radiostation hvisker, at det ikke var det svar, man havde forventet.
Basically, another journalist asks HHDL what he thinks about the way refugees are treated in Europe. HHDL says something like: "These desperate people, who have arrived in large numbers to Europe, should have protection. But when there's peace, they should return back home again, and help rebuild their own countries. They should be offered education, but they should not stay permanently in Europe, that they should know. Europe is for Europeans." And the journalist from KD says that the press seemingly reacts to what he said, by slightly squirming in their seats, and another journalists from a radio station whispers, that this wasn't the answer they expected.
None of this answers the question as to why anybody should care what HHDL's view on European migration policy is?

Isn't it funny that people that furiously defend the "Oh-so European" Rennaisance notion of the seperation of church and state, who rail against Islamic Sharia, are quite glad to drink a theocratic cocktail when it suits their political tastes.

Hypocrisy, much?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Norwegian » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:04 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:51 pm
None of this answers the question as to why anybody should care what HHDL's view on European migration policy is.
His Holiness the Dalai Lama is a major international figure. That usually means whatever such a person says or does, is viewed with interest. He is a Nobel Laureate (the Nobel Peace Prize, which he received back in the days when that prize meant something).

Moreover he is a major Buddhist teacher, so certainly he has the attention from those who are interested in, sympathetic with, or actually are Buddhists (certainly those who are Indo-Tibetan Buddhists). He is a refugee himself, since 1959, and is considered a leader of his people, so he certainly has knowledge and experience of how it is to be a refugee. Then, from the point of view of Vajrayana itself, he certainly is the guru of many gurus (that we have), so that's one thing. Another is that he's considered to be an emanation of Avalokiteshvara himself.

I am sure there are many more factors as to why anybody are interested in his views on either this or that. And so yes, these things explain the why-question of yours above.

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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Malcolm » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:03 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:04 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:51 pm
None of this answers the question as to why anybody should care what HHDL's view on European migration policy is.
His Holiness the Dalai Lama is a major international figure. That usually means whatever such a person says or does, is viewed with interest. He is a Nobel Laureate (the Nobel Peace Prize, which he received back in the days when that prize meant something).

Moreover he is a major Buddhist teacher, so certainly he has the attention from those who are interested in, sympathetic with, or actually are Buddhists (certainly those who are Indo-Tibetan Buddhists). He is a refugee himself, since 1959, and is considered a leader of his people, so he certainly has knowledge and experience of how it is to be a refugee. Then, from the point of view of Vajrayana itself, he certainly is the guru of many gurus (that we have), so that's one thing. Another is that he's considered to be an emanation of Avalokiteshvara himself.

I am sure there are many more factors as to why anybody are interested in his views on either this or that. And so yes, these things explain the why-question of yours above.

The reason why HHDL states this is obvious: he wants Tibet for Tibetans. Unfortunately, that ship has sailed. Otherwise everything that Grigoris points out is absolutely correct. Nationalism is the wrong way.
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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by cyril » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:46 pm

Hellene is just the Greek word for Greek. The Minoans were Minoans, the Aiolians were Aiolians..
Yet they all shared a common Greek identity. This is the point I was trying to make. National identities existed long before the advent of the modern national states.

This merely highlights the fact that even the term Hellene (or Macedonian) is not a static or fixed concept, so how can the term European be so?
To me, this shows that eventually, the ancient Macedonians thoroughly adopted the ways of their Southern neighbours to the point where they became indistiguishable from those. If I remember correctly it was Herodotus who defined being Greek as ”common blood, common language and common way of life”. So, I'm afraid it is not that the fix concept became fluid but that a certain category eventually matched the standards of that fixed concept.

Actually, funnily enough, it was Alexander the Great that said that a Hellene is anybody that has received a Hellenic education/upbringing.
That's a very generous idea but, for instance, I don't think that those wealthy Romans of the classical period who grew up with Greek preceptors saw themselves or were viewed by others as Greeks.
That is correct. Nationalities and nation states are a recent phenomenon. Standardised national languages are a recent phenomenon. Etc...
No, it is not correct. National identity precedes the national state. It is the later that is built upon the former, not the other way around. The people of Muskovy, Novgorod, Vladimir-Suzdal, Kiev, were calling themselves "rus" long before there was such thing as Russia. People of Moldavia and Wallachia were calling themselves "român" centuries beforethere was such thing as Romania. And so on...
You just contradicted yourself. You just seperated what a minute ago were referring to as a common category (European), into three+ categories.
So, if a category has multiple sub-categories, it ceases being a category?
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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Grigoris » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:21 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:04 pm
His Holiness the Dalai Lama is a major international figure.
So is Donald Trump, since when was fame a measure for insight?
He is a Nobel Laureate (the Nobel Peace Prize, which he received back in the days when that prize meant something.
So is Aung San Suu Kyi and she was a Minister for Foreign Affairs too. So? Would you ask her opinion on migration issues? Oh, wait. Maybe you would!
Moreover he is a major Buddhist teacher, so certainly he has the attention from those who are interested in, sympathetic with, or actually are Buddhists (certainly those who are Indo-Tibetan Buddhists).
This is not a qualification for opinions on migration issues.
He is a refugee himself, since 1959, and is considered a leader of his people, so he certainly has knowledge and experience of how it is to be a refugee.
Now, maybe, we are starting to get somewhere. Or are we? Would you say that (maybe) HHDL has a certain/specific political agenda when it comes to migration issues?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Malcolm » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:22 pm

It should be obvious that given we humans populate a tiny little planet floating in vast space, arguing that human beings can really be divided into nationalities is an incredibly pre-modem and regressive idea.
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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Queequeg » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:43 pm

1. People don't like their routines disturbed. Migration disrupts routines.
2. People have different norms - everything from expectations of personal space to diet, clothing, social interaction, courting, education, queuing... notions of justice, organization... religion just might be one of the obvious signifiers heaped with all sorts of value. When neighbors don't share norms, things can get tense.
3. On one side, there are questions about how one should treat guests. On the other, there are questions about how guests should behave. Things generally get tense when people don't want guests, or guests don't conform to the hosts expectations.

AFAIK, the issues we see around migration have a lot of complexity, but a significant aspect is a really primal level reaction about how one feels attachment to their home. Its never been easy for people to move into another's space. It never will be easy. That's just something about how we're wired. Hand wringing about how its awful kind of misses the point and is a loser fight.

There's no easy answer to any of this. Why? IMO, basically, we're just stupid monkeys.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

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There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Grigoris » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:47 pm

cyril wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:46 pm
Yet they all shared a common Greek identity. This is the point I was trying to make. National identities existed long before the advent of the modern national states.
Your point is wrong. You are assuming that because people think in a certain manner (or within certain conceptual frameworks) in our era that they did so 5000 years ago. Well they don't.

Consider the impact of the medium we are communicating with, on current conceptual frameworks. These conceptual frameworks did not exist 30 years ago, not 5000 years ago.
To me, this shows that eventually, the ancient Macedonians thoroughly adopted the ways of their Southern neighbours to the point where they became indistiguishable from those.
They never became indistinguishable from "those". Even modern Greek Macedonian culture is distinguishable from other Greek cultures. Hellenic culture is not homgenous, even after some 80 years of attempts by various nationalist governments. If I go to Athens and speak in my local dialect people cannot understand me. Dishes which are common here are unheard of on the mainland. Musically each region has a distinct sound and rhythm. Etc...

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about.

But your point again undermines your argument as you are now saying that they were not Hellenes before and they became Hellenes.
If I remember correctly it was Herodotus who defined being Greek as ”common blood, common language and common way of life”. So, I'm afraid it is not that the fix concept became fluid but that a certain category eventually matched the standards of that fixed concept.
Herodotus was born in the Persian Empire controlled portion of Asia Minor. As such he was the offspring of Ionian colonists in the region. So... I would say that maybe Herodotus would have a particular political agenda.

Regardless of this, (and given I have found of no evidence of him making a statement, either in Greek or English, that sounds more in line with something from stormfront.org ) it is not evidence of Ancient peoples thinking in terms of race or nationality, because according even to Herodotus himself, there were only two categories of people: Hellenes and barbarians. This does not really fit current models of nations and race.
That's a very generous idea but, for instance, I don't think that those wealthy Romans of the classical period who grew up with Greek preceptors saw themselves or were viewed by others as Greeks.
By the time the Romans crashed the scene the Greeks had fought each other into oblivion and insignificance.
No, it is not correct. National identity precedes the national state. It is the later that is built upon the former, not the other way around. The people of Muskovy, Novgorod, Vladimir-Suzdal, Kiev, were calling themselves "rus" long before there was such thing as Russia. People of Moldavia and Wallachia were calling themselves "român" centuries beforethere was such thing as Romania. And so on...
Chicken-egg.
So, if a category has multiple sub-categories, it ceases being a category?
You are trying to convince me that there is a single European identity and your only evidence of this is that there are various national identities? I am giving you ample examples of how even the idea of a national identity is false. Where is your evidence for a unified European identity? NOWHERE.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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