Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:39 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:12 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:43 pm
The obvious context is: please give us back our Tibet. We cannot go on like this, strangers in strange lands. We badly need to go home.

Making his words into some kind of fascist call for segregation is insane, imo.
HHDL has said the same thing for years now:

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=22869#p341204
Sure. The context I mentioned has not changed either.
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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Quay » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:46 pm

If you put this alongside his repeated call for a secular ethics based on universal human values then it makes sense.
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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Dan74 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:06 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:43 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:29 pm
I think what HH the Dalai Lama is saying is not quite realistic. When is this 'ultimately' he refers to? When their children are born in Europe, go to European schools, speak the local language better than the language of their parents, when the war in their country of origin is over, their should just uproot again, drag their kids from the only home they know and go back?? I don't find that to be a sensible or a humane demand.
The obvious context is: please give us back our Tibet. We cannot go on like this, strangers in strange lands. We badly need to go home.

Making his words into some kind of fascist call for segregation is insane, imo.
As usual, context is everything. However, he did say "Europe". So while what you say is almost certain where he is coming from, he himself does the overreach.

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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:37 pm

Miroku wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:10 am
https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/govern ... -europeans

Quite honestly, I have to agree with H.H. I am not super happy about it but I am starting to be afraid that their religion driven culture will prove to be incompatible with our European ones.

What do you guys think?
I agree with the Dalai Lama, too.

Europe's culture of today is mainly based on the enlightement and capatalism with traces of Christianity, imo.

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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Grigoris » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:39 pm

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:37 pm
Miroku wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:10 am
https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/govern ... -europeans

Quite honestly, I have to agree with H.H. I am not super happy about it but I am starting to be afraid that their religion driven culture will prove to be incompatible with our European ones.

What do you guys think?
I agree with the Dalai Lama, too.

Europe's culture of today is mainly based on the enlightement and capatalism with traces of Christianity, imo.
Capitalism is based on Protestant ethics. The enlightenment never broke with Christian ethics.
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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by PSM » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:20 pm

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:37 pm
Miroku wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:10 am
https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/govern ... -europeans

Quite honestly, I have to agree with H.H. I am not super happy about it but I am starting to be afraid that their religion driven culture will prove to be incompatible with our European ones.

What do you guys think?
I agree with the Dalai Lama, too.

Europe's culture of today is mainly based on the enlightement and capatalism with traces of Christianity, imo.
I agree too.

FWIW, I find it fascinating that a hugely disproportionate contribution to European culture and values came from Scotland. Coincidentally, Scotland's the location of the first vajrayana monastery in the west :smile:
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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Grigoris » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:26 pm

It seems the fact that Bosnia, Herzegovina and Albania are Muslim majority European nations, has bypassed all the ubermensch in this thread calling for European purity.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:03 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:26 pm
It seems the fact that Bosnia, Herzegovina and Albania are Muslim majority European nations, has bypassed all the ubermensch in this thread calling for European purity.
And?

The Dalai Lama spoke about refugees coming to Europe, not about the native population of two relativly small countries.

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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Grigoris » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:14 pm

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:03 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:26 pm
It seems the fact that Bosnia, Herzegovina and Albania are Muslim majority European nations, has bypassed all the ubermensch in this thread calling for European purity.
And?

The Dalai Lama spoke about refugees coming to Europe, not about the native population of two relativly small countries.
So which Europeans does it belong to then? The Muslim Europeans or the Christian Europeans?

Because the main issue being raised here is the religious beliefs of the refugees and migrants, something which overlooks the fact that there are Christian refugees and migrants too.

And overlooks the fact that there are European countries that have Muslim majorities.

And overlooks the fact that there is not such thing as a European anyway.

And overlooks the fact that Europe actually does not belong to anybody.

Nobody has come up with a logical or reasonable response to any of these facts yet.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Grigoris » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:15 pm

Oh, there is one other thing too: Why should I care what the Dalai Lama's opinion on migration policy is anyway? What is the basis for his authority on the subject?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Grigoris » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:50 pm

And, in closing, let us not forget the wonderfully civilising influence of European post-Renaissance culture in the Americas, Australia, New Zealand, the African continent, Asia, etc...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:22 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:50 pm
And, in closing, let us not forget the wonderfully civilising influence of European post-Renaissance culture in the Americas, Australia, New Zealand, the African continent, Asia, etc...
How wonderfully civilising has been the European (whether pre- or post-Renaissance, it does not matter much) influence on Europe, too.
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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:03 am

HHDL himself is a refugee and would like nothing mroe than to go back to Tibet, which is being flooded with Chinese.

That's where he is coming from.

Putting aside the issue of PRC occupation of Tibet and speaking purely of Han migration, do you agree that Tibet does not belong to the Tibetans and it's completely fine for Chinese to come in in large numbers? If so, at least you are consistent.

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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:57 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:03 am
HHDL himself is a refugee and would like nothing mroe than to go back to Tibet, which is being flooded with Chinese.

That's where he is coming from.

Putting aside the issue of PRC occupation of Tibet and speaking purely of Han migration, do you agree that Tibet does not belong to the Tibetans and it's completely fine for Chinese to come in in large numbers? If so, at least you are consistent.
The comparison between the present migration processes in Europe and in Tibet is beyond ridiculous. The Han Chinese in Tibet are neither economic migrants nor refugees. Their presence in Tibet is a violation of international law to begin with -- and Chinese settlers are being moved into Tibet, not infrequently against their own will, by the totalitarian government pursuing a very consistent policy of cultural genocide.
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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:19 am

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:57 am
MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:03 am
HHDL himself is a refugee and would like nothing mroe than to go back to Tibet, which is being flooded with Chinese.

That's where he is coming from.

Putting aside the issue of PRC occupation of Tibet and speaking purely of Han migration, do you agree that Tibet does not belong to the Tibetans and it's completely fine for Chinese to come in in large numbers? If so, at least you are consistent.
The comparison between the present migration processes in Europe and in Tibet is beyond ridiculous. The Han Chinese in Tibet are neither economic migrants nor refugees. Their presence in Tibet is a violation of international law to begin with -- and Chinese settlers are being moved into Tibet, not infrequently against their own will, by the totalitarian government pursuing a very consistent policy of cultural genocide.
They very much are economic migrants.

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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:20 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:19 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:57 am
MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:03 am
HHDL himself is a refugee and would like nothing mroe than to go back to Tibet, which is being flooded with Chinese.

That's where he is coming from.

Putting aside the issue of PRC occupation of Tibet and speaking purely of Han migration, do you agree that Tibet does not belong to the Tibetans and it's completely fine for Chinese to come in in large numbers? If so, at least you are consistent.
The comparison between the present migration processes in Europe and in Tibet is beyond ridiculous. The Han Chinese in Tibet are neither economic migrants nor refugees. Their presence in Tibet is a violation of international law to begin with -- and Chinese settlers are being moved into Tibet, not infrequently against their own will, by the totalitarian government pursuing a very consistent policy of cultural genocide.
They very much are economic migrants.
This is sophistry.
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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:25 am

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:20 am
MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:19 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:57 am


The comparison between the present migration processes in Europe and in Tibet is beyond ridiculous. The Han Chinese in Tibet are neither economic migrants nor refugees. Their presence in Tibet is a violation of international law to begin with -- and Chinese settlers are being moved into Tibet, not infrequently against their own will, by the totalitarian government pursuing a very consistent policy of cultural genocide.
They very much are economic migrants.
This is sophistry.
They are there to exploit Tibetan resources. How is this not economic migration?

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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Grigoris » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:39 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:25 am
They are there to exploit Tibetan resources. How is this not economic migration?
If you don't know the difference between migration and colonisation, then you should not be taking part in this discussion.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:43 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:39 am
MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:25 am
They are there to exploit Tibetan resources. How is this not economic migration?
If you don't know the difference between migration and colonisation, then you should not be taking part in this discussion.
If I wanted to be mean I'd say that if your livelihood depends on an influx of migrants, you should not take part in this discussion.

Anyway I don't even live in Europe, I don't have a horse in this race. It just seems to be utter folly to me to allow unrestricted immigration in an era with increasing technological unemployment and huge unemployment rates already existing.

There have been quite a few such events over the centuries: Germanic migrations into the Roman Empire, Slavic migrations into the Balkans, Turkish migrations into West Asia.

Today, the Thracians, Dacians, Scythians, Kushans, and countless peoples are only remembered by historians.

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Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'

Post by Grigoris » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:13 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:43 am
If I wanted to be mean I'd say that if your livelihood depends on an influx of migrants, you should not take part in this discussion.
Every day I pray that the influx of refugees ends.

For a number of reasons:

1. I am sick of listening to people talk to me about being tortured, raped, ripped-off, jailed, enslaved, bombed, having their families/lover/friends slaughtered, etc... If my job was to fire me tomorrow, I would be delighted.

2. I would be overjoyed because a lack of refugees means a lack of war, poverty, exploitation, phobic reaction, etc... in people's countries.

3. I would be delighted because it means that human trafficking has ended.

4. I would ecstatic because it means that Turkey (I live on an island about 5km from the shore of Turkey) would not be burdened by a huge refugee population trapped there by the EU-Turkey deal, something which is currently negatively impacting on their society and culture.

5. Etc...

So no, your remark would not be mean, it would be extremely ignorant and badly informed.

Now please go learn about the difference between colonisation and migration.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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