Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

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Queequeg
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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Queequeg » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:18 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:45 am
But I would say that rules of conduct are of huge importance, rules of conduct as in precepts, vows, manners, etc. We have to control our behavior, right?
For the most part, I think we are on the same page. Maybe its a matter of how we conceptualize the categories.

With regard to the rules, it depends on the rule we're talking about. Five Precepts arguably are timeless. Sleeping on high beds? Maybe in the past this was some luxurious indulgence... I don't think giving up a high bed carries the same impact now. There are also a lot of ways in which Buddhism has been conditioned by culture... Even the oldest layers of teaching, the Buddha could not avoid the conventions and conventional wisdom of his day. He seems to have left innocuous ones intact, appropriated others, and repurposed yet others.

I'm not saying that a priori we can figure out which ideas are essential, which are inessential, but without doubt, the traditions we've received in the West contain both. We'll be kicking stuff around for a while to figure out what works with us.

What got me on this subject in this thread was the question of whether the creepiness was at least partially due to incongruity of Tibetan sexual mores with Western norms. It could be that these guys are just creeps. It could also be that they get away with this stuff in Tibetan contexts. It wouldn't be the first time that Asian dudes approach sex in such abusive ways.
fgs
What's fgs?
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:47 am
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:10 pm
But my point is, and if we accept at face value that Buddhas and Bodhisattvas appear where they are yearned for... we prepare the place for them and then wait with yearning. We don't need to think that much, plan that much, theorize that much. The authentic teachers will come to those circumstances that fit them.
Yes! this is what I mean.
This has to be read in light of my other comments, too, though. Everything is the culmination of the ripening of karma, of causes and effects. Wherever you go, there you are - how else could it be?

Right now, young people are not showing interest in Buddhism. Children of practitioners more often than not have no interest in what their parents have found value in... I don't think its simply a matter of people not having the karmic disposition. I look at us and often shake my head - of course they're not interested in this crap. Look at how we've screwed up. Look at these people we've elevated to prominent positions. Who would want a part of that? If the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas are not coming, its as much because we're doing something wrong as anything else. If its something we're doing, that's something we can control and work on. If its just fate, then F'it. Nothing matters.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Fortyeightvows » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:12 am

Queequeg wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:18 am
Right now, young people are not showing interest in Buddhism.
You really think that’s true? I’m not sure about all of that.
Queequeg wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:18 am
Children of practitioners more often than not have no interest in what their parents have found value in.
I know of many examples where that is true but also many examples where it is not true.
Queequeg wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:18 am
I don't think its simply a matter of people not having the karmic disposition. I look at us and often shake my head - of course they're not interested in this crap. Look at how we've screwed up. Look at these people we've elevated to prominent positions. Who would want a part of that?

Could it be that too much time on this site has altered your view?
Queequeg wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:18 am
What's fgs?
Buddhas light. They could easily be used as an example to argue that a lot of the generalizations you made are not true

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Fortyeightvows » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:19 am

I"ll try to share an example that my master often uses when talking about practicing esoteric buddhism in the modern times:
The example he gives was that in the old days if you gave a girl a certain color of flower it meant one thing.
If you gave a girl a different type of flower it meant something else.
Because people in modern times don't have that type of culture or that type of relationship with symbols, alot of people miss alot of the subtle meaning and magic of vajrayana.

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如傑優婆塞
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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by 如傑優婆塞 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:41 am

What's fgs?
Here & here

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Queequeg
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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Queequeg » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:41 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:12 am
Queequeg wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:18 am
Right now, young people are not showing interest in Buddhism.
You really think that’s true? I’m not sure about all of that.
It's documented that young people in developed countries show decreasing levels of interest in religion across the board. Anecdotally, it's commonly observed that Western sanghas are graying. Are there some where this is not so? We need to take note of these.

What's interesting is that casual interest in Dharma appears strong - Buddhism 101 courses are often well subscribed at the college level. The Buddhism shelves at the big box bookstores have a fresh lineup of new titles. "Mindfulness" is big business.

Something is not connecting here. It may be a generational aversion to organized religious communities. It might be something else. In any event, the threshold where Dharma becomes an impact in people's lives beyond a flavor in a dissipated melange of casual ideas is not being crossed, and without that, there will be no great masters emerging among us.
quote=Queequeg post_id=466302 time=1537661891 user_id=2451] I don't think its simply a matter of people not having the karmic disposition. I look at us and often shake my head - of course they're not interested in this crap. Look at how we've screwed up. Look at these people we've elevated to prominent positions. Who would want a part of that?

Could it be that too much time on this site has altered your view?
If only these scandals were just in my head. Lots of things that offer hope are happening, too. Just the things that go bad are depressingly so and sensational. They have a way of becoming representative.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Queequeg
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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Queequeg » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:45 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:19 am
I"ll try to share an example that my master often uses when talking about practicing esoteric buddhism in the modern times:
The example he gives was that in the old days if you gave a girl a certain color of flower it meant one thing.
If you gave a girl a different type of flower it meant something else.
Because people in modern times don't have that type of culture or that type of relationship with symbols, alot of people miss alot of the subtle meaning and magic of vajrayana.
And this kind of furthers my point.

I don't think you are trying to suggest that we don't have relationships with symbols. The whole meme phenomena puts any notion that we don't appreciate symbols to bed. That's what a certain colored flower is - its a meme.

Does the fault lie with the present person who doesn't understand ancient symbols? Or the the teacher who faithfully transmits what she received, word for word? Is the expectation that ordinary people today should get familiar with ancient symbols so that they can penetrate dharma, or should the teacher take the underlying meaning and try to communicate it in the terms of the present person so this extraneous step doesn't serve to obscure and discourage people? Its ironic something originally intended to make Dharma accessible now serves to keep people out.

Seems a lot of people tend toward demanding present people learn ancient symbols. Its the kind of attitude that is conducive to exclusion and exclusivity. This seems to be at odds with the Buddha who constantly resorts to any convenient convention, symbol or device to make Dharma known. It really comes down to, who should make the effort to connect? There really needs to be effort at both ends, but making deciphering a necessary step is just frivolous. It frankly strikes me as petty and greedy. And I won't even start on how some teachers seem to use that contrived opacity as a means of livelihood.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by amanitamusc » Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:36 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:45 pm
And I won't even start on how some teachers seem to use that contrived opacity as a means of livelihood.
Who did you have in mind?

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Queequeg
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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Queequeg » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:05 pm

If you charge admission.... Suggesting specific 'donations' falls in the same category. Suspect. Imo.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

amanitamusc
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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by amanitamusc » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:34 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:05 pm
If you charge admission.... Suggesting specific 'donations' falls in the same category. Suspect. Imo.
My prices are negotiable but there is a 100 dollars a head charge just to get in the door.You must by a key
which not reusable for 300 dollars to get in the door. Your seat will be 500 and every drink you have is 6.66 dollars.
The show may happen or not. There are no refunds.Popcorn is free. :popcorn:

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Queequeg » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:19 pm

Let me give you my credit card number...
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Malcolm
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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Malcolm » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:27 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:41 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:12 am
Queequeg wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:18 am
Right now, young people are not showing interest in Buddhism.
You really think that’s true? I’m not sure about all of that.
It's documented that young people in developed countries show decreasing levels of interest in religion across the board. Anecdotally, it's commonly observed that Western sanghas are graying. Are there some where this is not so? We need to take note of these.
This is mainly the case in the US (West coast being a notable exception), England, etc. Young people in China and Europe are deeply enthusiastic for Dharma.

It is mainly in English-speaking countries where Dharma communities seem to be graying, and ironically, English is now the primary lingua franca of Buddhist studies.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Tiago Simões » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:34 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:27 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:41 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:12 am


You really think that’s true? I’m not sure about all of that.
It's documented that young people in developed countries show decreasing levels of interest in religion across the board. Anecdotally, it's commonly observed that Western sanghas are graying. Are there some where this is not so? We need to take note of these.
This is mainly the case in the US (West coast being a notable exception), England, etc. Young people in China and Europe are deeply enthusiastic for Dharma.

It is mainly in English-speaking countries where Dharma communities seem to be graying, and ironically, English is now the primary lingua franca of Buddhist studies.
Yes, here in Portugal dharma communities are far from graying out, mostly because it it is a relatively new phenomenon here. Buddhism, especially TB is still shrouded in a magical mystery. And the growing development of householder lineages (nyingma) just adds to the interest.

Actually I'd say that communities here are divided into two groups.
The older generation that became interested in Buddhism back when the Dalai Lama came to Portugal in 2001.
And the newer generation, that have joined in to a more "home-grown" community.
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
The Noble Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Teaching of Vimalakīrti”

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Fa Dao » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:53 pm

:twothumbsup:
amanitamusc wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:18 pm
With social media so real and available these days all it takes is one rumor to destroy
someones career,credentials and there is always someone to jump on the wagon while
avoiding all legal realms.
Social media does more harm than good? We will see.
One thing social media provides is the worlds greatest soap opera.
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:46 pm

如傑優婆塞 wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:25 am
The Dalai Lama is meeting victims of sexual abuse by Buddhist teachers during his visit to the Netherlands, broadcaster NOS reports. More here
Disgusting that under the flag of religion some monks / priests can rape confused persons.
Yes i know in Holland many of these cases and these criminals should be put in jail, like every other rapist / criminal.

These abusers mislead first their victims. Then the victims get uncertain, the real time to proceed etc.
I know some persons who are for their whole live ruined mental , because they never expected that a monk who has direct contact with higher dimensions can go over to sexual abusing deeds.

Once again into the jail with these criminals, there they will get a hard time and its a fair warning for others NOT to do this again in secret.

In Buddhism is written that one should act according the national law of the country.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by MiphamFan » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:30 am

I attended Dharma events around Europe before. I think it's still mostly generation X.

Probably the Dzogchen community, with a large Russian contingent is the "youngest" that I've seen.

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Tiago Simões » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:22 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:30 am
I attended Dharma events around Europe before. I think it's still mostly generation X.

Probably the Dzogchen community, with a large Russian contingent is the "youngest" that I've seen.
Younger people interest in Dharma (teens and young 20s) have a lack of resources to make it to dharma events. Also the fact that many are socially awkward makes going to a dharma center complicated.
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
The Noble Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Teaching of Vimalakīrti”

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Miroku » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:16 pm

Tiago Simões wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:22 am
MiphamFan wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:30 am
I attended Dharma events around Europe before. I think it's still mostly generation X.

Probably the Dzogchen community, with a large Russian contingent is the "youngest" that I've seen.
Younger people interest in Dharma (teens and young 20s) have a lack of resources to make it to dharma events. Also the fact that many are socially awkward makes going to a dharma center complicated.
Yeah, funds and fact that I had no-one to go with me slowed me down a bit when I was 18-22. But I'd say that it is important to take a deep breath and jump. It is a dharma we are talking about, not a concert. You can go there and do it alone and it is worth it. In Vienna I met a young boy who was 20, he was pretty awkward, but we did have a nice chat and it was very nice to see that I am no longer the youngest in my sanghas. :D
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by amanitamusc » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:18 pm

Tiago Simões wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:22 am
MiphamFan wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:30 am
I attended Dharma events around Europe before. I think it's still mostly generation X.

Probably the Dzogchen community, with a large Russian contingent is the "youngest" that I've seen.
Younger people interest in Dharma (teens and young 20s) have a lack of resources to make it to dharma events. Also the fact that many are socially awkward makes going to a dharma center complicated.
There may be many attending the online teachings.

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