Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

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Simon E.
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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Simon E. » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:20 pm

Fair enough smcj. I now have a clearer idea of your point. Thank you.


NB Obviate is a very ordinary word.
Frequently used in UK journals/magazines/discussion.
Please don't join the member who regularly feels the need to draw attention in a disparaging way to any word he does not know, or is not used in his part of the world. :smile:
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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by smcj » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:22 pm

:namaste:
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Queequeg » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:28 pm

I guess we're talking about Lama Norlha now?

The Rigpa and Shambhala stuff is straight up creep stuff. "Hey, babe, blow me. And my friends, too." "Get me some fine young virgins!" Vomit. :toilet:

What are the allegations against LN? I see references to him having sexual relationships with at least six students. I don't see details about the circumstances. Was he dropping his robe, "Oops! Would you look at that." Or were these relations as up and up can be while trying to maintain the appearance of celibacy?

The biggest problem, it seems, is Norlha was supposed to be celibate. Keeping up appearances while trying to get some is bound to end badly... too many secrets, not just for Norlha, but for everyone else who gets involved - everyone is sucked into keeping the lie. And people can't openly express their affections... significant aspects of one's personality get closeted up... Which brings me to a question...

Was what happened with LN at least partially a misalignment of cultural norms?

In the West, we're still all kinds of screwed up when it comes to sex, but one thing is that we're relatively open, even in our dysfunction - often too open. This is especially the case of Americans. We are very open people. In general, we live publicly. We're not guarded and private quite in the way many other people are. The stereotype of the American tourist is loud and obnoxious. That's actually just how we are in general. With regard to relationships - we have these ideals we should be open, affirming and supportive of each other. We have all these dating rituals (maybe in the age of Tinder and Grinder this is eroding) of making our relationship status public - dating, titles like "boyfriend" and "girlfriend". We present ourselves publicly as part of such relationships, and in our atomized social structure - that connection is often one of the most important for our sense of meaning. Other things - we believe (or at least feminism in the last generation has raised women's expectation) that our relationships should be co-equal. We should, in the dating stage, understand that it may not be permanent, but at least we can grow in it together for a while. Etc. Etc.

How do you bring those expectations and values about relationships to a relationship with someone who is not even supposed to be having sex with you? Especially in the hyper mind melding of intense group spiritual community? Of course someone is going to get hurt.

LN was off the boat. He wasn't American. Not only was he not immersed in American relationship and sexual mores, he was raised from a young age in a sheltered monastic environment. He never had practice dating in high school and young adult hood. His only sex happened in clandestine couplings that had to be kept secret.

I don't know - maybe in the Tibetan cultural context, that kind of DL hooking up was baked into the social structure. I don't see ethnic Tibetans really freaking about this stuff and if this is happening in the West, I'm sure this kind of stuff was going on in those lonely mountain villages, too.

I don't know if I'm articulating these ideas well. I'm on the outside looking in on this Tibetan stuff.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by smcj » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:46 pm

I don't know if I'm articulating these ideas well. I'm on the outside looking in on this Tibetan stuff.
I am a Lama Norlha student. I live at his monastery. I have samaya with him and his sangha.

I’m not going to be able to help you sort out his lama drama. I’ve not been able to definitively sort it out for myself. My own views, opinions, and attitudes towards it are still in flux. Make of it what you will.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Queequeg » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:38 pm

smcj wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:46 pm
I don't know if I'm articulating these ideas well. I'm on the outside looking in on this Tibetan stuff.
I am a Lama Norlha student. I live at his monastery. I have samaya with him and his sangha.

I’m not going to be able to help you sort out his lama drama. I’ve not been able to definitively sort it out for myself. My own views, opinions, and attitudes towards it are still in flux. Make of it what you will.
Its tough, man. Can't imagine. I don't mean to put you on the spot. My post/question was addressed generally. I don't know if there is any succinct answer.

We (Americans) are not going to change significantly - not in any way that is going to become more accommodating to the social and religious norms of the nations that gave us our Dharma lineages. We are what we are. Maybe Dharma becomes a significant part of the conversation here in America, but probably not, not for a long time, anyway. Dharma is going to be a fringe thing for the foreseeable future. If its taking root, its going to have to adapt to the environment, because the other way is not happening.

We talk a lot about "Western" Dharma... usually its a question of how to reconcile our tight leg muscles and weak lower backs with meditation postures. Or how to reconcile the cultivation of the inner life with the expectation of public and civic engagement. Maybe we actually need to start with sex and then work our way out to those other issues - like, how do we expect our teachers to conduct themselves in their intimate relationships? Clearly, this hooking up with students is not working; the power dynamics, especially in the Guru-student relationship, are simply too unequal. In our society, there is an assumption that such an unbalanced relationship is unethical, if not immoral.

Something is going to have to give.

I'll tell you what won't give: the general cultural norms.

We need teachers to emerge who are fully American. How that happens - how some American kid becomes a Buddhist sage, we are going to have to figure out. Seeing sanghas go gray with no new blood tells me - we're not doing it right. The stench of lecherous men, deserving or not, doesn't help with Millennials and the next generation coming up whose expectations are nothing close to the medieval norms that Buddhism has been mired in for the last few centuries. Boomers and GenX, I think we have enough collective memory of pre-sex revolution culture that we shrug our shoulders at some of this stuff.

Raising sages seems to me the most pressing concern for the American Buddhist community. All hands should be on deck for this. We (us senior members of the community who shoulder the financial and administrative responsibilities) are done. We're closer to the grave than our childhood. We need to figure out what we expect from our teachers and stick to the plan, for a start.

Sorry. Mind dump. But when I see these scandals, this is what I think about - what is this doing for the viability of Dharma for the people who come after me. I (we) am responsible for whether our children are born in advantageous circumstances (there is a Buddha, there are teachers, etc.) Nobody wants to be around creeps no matter what kind of things they are peddling.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by DGA » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:50 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:38 pm

We need teachers to emerge who are fully American. How that happens - how some American kid becomes a Buddhist sage, we are going to have to figure out. Seeing sanghas go gray with no new blood tells me - we're not doing it right. [...]

Raising sages seems to me the most pressing concern for the American Buddhist community. All hands should be on deck for this. We (us senior members of the community who shoulder the financial and administrative responsibilities) are done. We're closer to the grave than our childhood. We need to figure out what we expect from our teachers and stick to the plan, for a start.

Sorry. Mind dump. But when I see these scandals, this is what I think about - what is this doing for the viability of Dharma for the people who come after me. I (we) am responsible for whether our children are born in advantageous circumstances (there is a Buddha, there are teachers, etc.) Nobody wants to be around creeps no matter what kind of things they are peddling.
I agree with these points completely.

I also agree with the premise that proselytizing is pointless, even counterproductive. Whomever comes to the Dharma, does so because their karma for it has ripened. That won't be possible if we, those of us who are practicing now, fail to keep the conditions for practice available in perpetuity. I think this takes two forms: 1) we have to do our best in practice now, and 2) we need to support other practitioners and institutions to the best of our ability.

When it comes to raising sages... I've asked various Buddhist teachers about how to parent. They've been consistent that it's important to raise happy, healthy kids. They didn't say much of anything about Dharma except to plant a seed for them (example: one Tibetan master gave us some dudtsi for my wife to take daily while nursing, so that the blessings go to the baby at her breast, thus giving the kid a connection to Dharma).

These are degenerate times.

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Queequeg » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:47 pm

DGA wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:50 pm
I also agree with the premise that proselytizing is pointless, even counterproductive. Whomever comes to the Dharma, does so because their karma for it has ripened. That won't be possible if we, those of us who are practicing now, fail to keep the conditions for practice available in perpetuity. I think this takes two forms: 1) we have to do our best in practice now, and 2) we need to support other practitioners and institutions to the best of our ability.

When it comes to raising sages... I've asked various Buddhist teachers about how to parent. They've been consistent that it's important to raise happy, healthy kids. They didn't say much of anything about Dharma except to plant a seed for them (example: one Tibetan master gave us some dudtsi for my wife to take daily while nursing, so that the blessings go to the baby at her breast, thus giving the kid a connection to Dharma).

These are degenerate times.
As you know, I come from an "evangelical" Buddhist background. I am ambivalent about those methods, but I don't reject them. Some people need persistent encouragement to take the first step. There is a line, though.

When it comes to propagation of religious teachings, at one extreme, there is the approach of various closed religious communities - I'm thinking of Yezidis in Iraq who are an ethnic as well as religious community - it almost makes no sense to consider the group apart from their religion. They hold themselves separate, have no thought of proselytizing. Jews are similar - its something that one is born into. There are converts but those cases are unusual, and they tend to make it really hard to join them. At the other extreme, you have Christian colonial missionaries. There's a lot of real estate in between.

Buddha was "evangelical". We can debate about the karmic conditioning of the world in which he came into, and ours, but that seems to me a pointless avenue of speculation: whatever happens, is the culmination of karma. You can never know how things are going to play out so in my view, its not even worth consideration. What we can moderate is our own intention and do our best to translate intention into action.

Buddha appeared in a culture that promoted and welcomed teaching openly. I'd say, our culture is pretty open in terms of welcoming public religious discourse, particularly when the ideas are not pushed. There's some happy medium where we can present Dharma and extend an open invitation without being overbearing or coercive. It'd be nice if there were more "public" Buddhists like Bob Thurman.

I'm afraid I'm going to disagree with the teachers you consulted. Kids don't learn to read and write without structured instruction. At some point, they need to sit down and learn. Its the same thing with Dharma. That doesn't mean it has to be rote learning. I get the impression that a lot of Buddhist texts are intended to be entertaining stories - that's definitely the case with many Mahayana texts. Jataka tales - these are pretty clearly stories to impart lessons on children and other casual students. These stories, individually they have nuggets of wisdom, but collectively, they impart a robust world view in which the individual lessons seem intuitive.

My wife took our son to Hebrew school last week. He literally LOVED it. I don't know how he'll like it when he actually gets to trying to learn Hebrew, but he loved singing the songs led by the cantor and listening to the rabbi tell stories. From what my wife tells me, they really had a well developed, age appropriate class. IMHO, that's where the Buddhist community needs to get to. It goes without saying, creeps do not belong anywhere near that environment.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by kirtu » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:22 am

Dalai Lama: Sexual abuse lamas don’t care about Buddhist teaching
(TibetanReview.net, Sep17, 2018) – The Dalai Lama has let it be known Sep 16, arriving in The Hague for the second leg of his four-nation tour of Europe, that he had learnt about the sexual assault allegations against some Tibetan Buddhist masters in the West as far back as 25 years ago. And he has made it clear that such teachers don’t care about the Buddha’s teaching.

“Twenty-five years ago… someone mentioned about a problem of sexual allegations” at a conference for western Buddhist teachers in Dharamshala, a hill town in northern state of Himachal Pradesh in India, the AFP quoted him as saying.

People who commit sexual abuse “don’t care about the Buddha’s teaching. So now that everything has been made public, people may concern about their shame,” he has further said, speaking in English.

Referring to the upcoming meeting of Tibetan spiritual leaders in Dharamshala in Nov 2018, the Dalai Lama has said, “At that time they should talk about it.”

The Dalai Lama was reported to have made this remark in televised comments Sep 15. “I think the religious leaders should pay more attention.”

Earlier, on Sep 14, the Dalai Lama had met with four claimed victims representing a group of 12 in Rotterdam, the Netherlands. Following it, participant Oane Bijlsma was quoted as saying, “What we want from him is that he is very clear about the fact that religious leaders in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition are not above the law” despite supposedly tradition-backed claims about their behaviour being beyond good and evil.

The AFP report cited Tseten Samdup Chhoekyapa, a representative of the Tibetan spiritual leader in Europe, as saying earlier on Sep 13 that the Dalai Lama “has consistently denounced such irresponsible and unethical behaviour”.
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"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Fortyeightvows » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:19 am

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:38 pm
If its taking root, its going to have to adapt to the environment, because the other way is not happening.
Often people say things like 'buddhism should change to keep with the times'- but I always say that the whole point of buddhism is to preserve and pass on timeless truths.

Should buddhism change to match the culture or environment? Alot of people say that- but maybe we should try to change the culture to match buddhism instead.
Sometimes when I look at fgs I think they are sort of trying to do that.

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Queequeg » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:02 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:19 am
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:38 pm
If its taking root, its going to have to adapt to the environment, because the other way is not happening.
Often people say things like 'buddhism should change to keep with the times'- but I always say that the whole point of buddhism is to preserve and pass on timeless truths.

Should buddhism change to match the culture or environment? Alot of people say that- but maybe we should try to change the culture to match buddhism instead.
Sometimes when I look at fgs I think they are sort of trying to do that.
Is Buddhism the robes and hats? Is it the rules of conduct?

Last I considered it, emptiness was impermeable to cultural accretion. Dependent origination offered no value judgment as to whether one sat in lotus or seiza or in a chair.

I agree with your sentiment, but if you think that Buddha dharma requires one to be an orientalist caricature, we part ways.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Simon E. » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:06 pm

Hear hear!
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Mantrik » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:05 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:02 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:19 am
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:38 pm
If its taking root, its going to have to adapt to the environment, because the other way is not happening.
Often people say things like 'buddhism should change to keep with the times'- but I always say that the whole point of buddhism is to preserve and pass on timeless truths.

Should buddhism change to match the culture or environment? Alot of people say that- but maybe we should try to change the culture to match buddhism instead.
Sometimes when I look at fgs I think they are sort of trying to do that.
Is Buddhism the robes and hats? Is it the rules of conduct?

Last I considered it, emptiness was impermeable to cultural accretion. Dependent origination offered no value judgment as to whether one sat in lotus or seiza or in a chair.

I agree with your sentiment, but if you think that Buddha dharma requires one to be an orientalist caricature, we part ways.
I think it all comes back to 'use' and 'abuse' of those cultural elements.

In terms of Vajrayana:

As we (in the UK) have no established Buddhist culture, we must make use of the elements of practice which relate to other cultures and recognise that with Buddha, as with Jesus, we have to begin with his context, and the context of the last culture involved in bringing those teachings to us.

There is going to be a spectrum, possibly permanently, who knows. Some will want to use the dress and behaviour of the monastics and ngakpas and at the other end of that spectrum, others will want to ditch the lot as fast as possible.
Sure we can manage fine without robes, but what about a bell and vajra, a phurba or damaru? Are we going to chant mantras in English? One wonders who is enlightened enough to decide which elements we should abandon and which we should retain. It isn't a matter of caricature, but of preservation and continuity in tension with integration with new cultures.

Then we have the cults, using the trappings of Tibetan or Indian culture as part of the mystique around the abusive gurus, binding their victims to their abusers with mystical vows promising terrible vengeance if they stray. They also have the 'doublethink' of wanting the western lifestyle themselves, whilst simultaneously condemning most aspects of it as part of the scam they are delivering to their victims, whose 'guruyoga' is a happy shag for the guru and donations providing a stately home or two.

So, whilst cultural accretions may be used for harm, perhaps we need that context as we transition, and embrace jazz on the sitar and raga on the uilleann pipes. ;)
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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Queequeg » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:10 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:05 pm
I think it all comes back to 'use' and 'abuse' of those cultural elements.

In terms of Vajrayana:

As we (in the UK) have no established Buddhist culture, we must make use of the elements of practice which relate to other cultures and recognise that with Buddha, as with Jesus, we have to begin with his context, and the context of the last culture involved in bringing those teachings to us.

There is going to be a spectrum, possibly permanently, who knows. Some will want to use the dress and behaviour of the monastics and ngakpas and at the other end of that spectrum, others will want to ditch the lot as fast as possible.
Sure we can manage fine without robes, but what about a bell and vajra, a phurba or damaru? Are we going to chant mantras in English? One wonders who is enlightened enough to decide which elements we should abandon and which we should retain. It isn't a matter of caricature, but of preservation and continuity in tension with integration with new cultures.

Then we have the cults, using the trappings of Tibetan or Indian culture as part of the mystique around the abusive gurus, binding their victims to their abusers with mystical vows promising terrible vengeance if they stray. They also have the 'doublethink' of wanting the western lifestyle themselves, whilst simultaneously condemning most aspects of it as part of the scam they are delivering to their victims, whose 'guruyoga' is a happy shag for the guru and donations providing a stately home or two.

So, whilst cultural accretions may be used for harm, perhaps we need that context as we transition, and embrace jazz on the sitar and raga on the uilleann pipes. ;)
I make no suggestion that this process is easy or will happen quickly. On the other hand... come on, we know the orientalist when we see them. Mybe that's me... The Asian kids spot them coming a mile away and roll their eyes...

Notwithstanding, I guess one cosplays until that miraculous transformation happens and we are what we aspired to be.

But my point is, and if we accept at face value that Buddhas and Bodhisattvas appear where they are yearned for... we prepare the place for them and then wait with yearning. We don't need to think that much, plan that much, theorize that much. The authentic teachers will come to those circumstances that fit them. OTOH, if we're scaring all the milennials and genext away with creepiness and weirdo stuff, seems we're failing at making a fitting home for these beings who will bring us the auhtentic dharma in the Western form.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by amanitamusc » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:30 pm

Kids in general don't see the orientalist or anybody else coming.The are to busy texting,instagraming,
twittering,smoking spice. :tongue:

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by kirtu » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:20 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:10 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:05 pm
I think it all comes back to 'use' and 'abuse' of those cultural elements.

In terms of Vajrayana:

As we (in the UK) have no established Buddhist culture, we must make use of the elements of practice which relate to other cultures and recognise that with Buddha, as with Jesus, we have to begin with his context, and the context of the last culture involved in bringing those teachings to us.

There is going to be a spectrum, possibly permanently, who knows. Some will want to use the dress and behaviour of the monastics and ngakpas and at the other end of that spectrum, others will want to ditch the lot as fast as possible.
Sure we can manage fine without robes, but what about a bell and vajra, a phurba or damaru? Are we going to chant mantras in English? One wonders who is enlightened enough to decide which elements we should abandon and which we should retain. It isn't a matter of caricature, but of preservation and continuity in tension with integration with new cultures.

Then we have the cults, using the trappings of Tibetan or Indian culture as part of the mystique around the abusive gurus, binding their victims to their abusers with mystical vows promising terrible vengeance if they stray. They also have the 'doublethink' of wanting the western lifestyle themselves, whilst simultaneously condemning most aspects of it as part of the scam they are delivering to their victims, whose 'guruyoga' is a happy shag for the guru and donations providing a stately home or two.

So, whilst cultural accretions may be used for harm, perhaps we need that context as we transition, and embrace jazz on the sitar and raga on the uilleann pipes. ;)
I make no suggestion that this process is easy or will happen quickly. On the other hand... come on, we know the orientalist when we see them. Mybe that's me...
You were raised in a Buddhist household so no.

A lot of these concerns seem centered on identity and appropriation.

But the fundamental concern of all of Mahayana Buddhism is to empty samsara from it's depths and in the shorter term to end all suffering. Being judgmental increases suffering.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Queequeg » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:25 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:30 pm
orientalist
They can often smell them.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by DGA » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:02 am

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:10 pm

But my point is, and if we accept at face value that Buddhas and Bodhisattvas appear where they are yearned for... we prepare the place for them and then wait with yearning. We don't need to think that much, plan that much, theorize that much. The authentic teachers will come to those circumstances that fit them. OTOH, if we're scaring all the milennials and genext away with creepiness and weirdo stuff, seems we're failing at making a fitting home for these beings who will bring us the auhtentic dharma in the Western form.
I'd word it a bit differently but I completely agree with this idea (apropos of my earlier post in this thread, and your response to it).

If beings have the merit to meet Dharma, they will definitely meet Dharma. Put coarsely, you get the Dharma you deserve. And in degenerate times, some communities are fortunate enough to give birth to extraordinary masters who refresh and replenish the transmission. Hakuin comes to mind as such a figure.

I hope practitioners in the English-speaking world today are deserving of a contemporary Hakuin.

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Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Queequeg » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:21 am

Its a strange conundrum we face. Do we try or not try? Make effort or don't?

Build a Stupa?

I come down on the side - Why not? What else is there to do?

Build bird feeders for Dharma birds who will come and sing.

In the end, "do your best!" is the best advice we have. I just pulled Wild Ivey off the shelf at your prompt.

But I'm afraid, Dan, we're like Asita at this point - we won't live to hear those beautiful songs. I trust others will!
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

Fortyeightvows
Posts: 2035
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:37 am

Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Fortyeightvows » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:45 am

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:02 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:19 am
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:38 pm
If its taking root, its going to have to adapt to the environment, because the other way is not happening.
Often people say things like 'buddhism should change to keep with the times'- but I always say that the whole point of buddhism is to preserve and pass on timeless truths.

Should buddhism change to match the culture or environment? Alot of people say that- but maybe we should try to change the culture to match buddhism instead.
Sometimes when I look at fgs I think they are sort of trying to do that.
Is Buddhism the robes and hats? Is it the rules of conduct?

Last I considered it, emptiness was impermeable to cultural accretion. Dependent origination offered no value judgment as to whether one sat in lotus or seiza or in a chair.

I agree with your sentiment, but if you think that Buddha dharma requires one to be an orientalist caricature, we part ways.
Obviously it isn't robes and hats.
And I think that lay people dressing like it's the middle ages is ridiculous. (sorry to the many dharma wheelers who enjoy it- i just think it's silly)

But I would say that rules of conduct are of huge importance, rules of conduct as in precepts, vows, manners, etc. We have to control our behavior, right?

When I say the culture should change to accommodate buddhism, I mean some rejection of degenerate culture and ways of thought and behavior. it doesn't mean we have to live like it's the tang.

I use fgs as an example because they have so many secular activity they organize but where the space is still held in a way to facilitate some level of mindfulness and practice. Like all of the groups for seniors and youth- they do the same activity that other senior groups would do (other than gambling) but with keep some sense of the sacred.
It's hard for me to try to say what i mean here, but maybe you get me.
Maybe we should pray before meals when we go to restaurants?

Fortyeightvows
Posts: 2035
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:37 am

Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers

Post by Fortyeightvows » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:47 am

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:10 pm
But my point is, and if we accept at face value that Buddhas and Bodhisattvas appear where they are yearned for... we prepare the place for them and then wait with yearning. We don't need to think that much, plan that much, theorize that much. The authentic teachers will come to those circumstances that fit them.
Yes! this is what I mean.

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