Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

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Nemo
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Nemo » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:53 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:43 pm
Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:59 am
Bernie is a terrific person but clearly too far to the left to be a realistic prospect.
You know this world is done for when health care, infrastructure and education are considered left wing...
It also shows a very profound ignorance of basic economics. When you weed out the noise from credit cycles the real source of long term growth is increasing productivity. The easiest way to do that is to tax stagnant money from the rich and invest in infrastructure, education and health care. American politics is is two flavors of pablum fed to morons.

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by amanitamusc » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:38 am

Nemo wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:53 am
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:43 pm
Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:59 am
Bernie is a terrific person but clearly too far to the left to be a realistic prospect.
You know this world is done for when health care, infrastructure and education are considered left wing...
. American politics is is two flavors of pablum fed to morons.
I would just add corporate media's effect of dividing the country quite successfully.

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by justsit » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:34 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:21 pm
justsit wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:00 pm
I'm looking at it more from the perspective of, "Is this something that realistically can be addressed in the next two years so we have a solid chance to remove Trump?"
You think that the only way to remove Trump is to replace him with a Democratic Party candidate that is his political twin???
No, of course not. But which Democrat has a snowball's chance of beating Trump in 2020? Where are the strong party leaders who can clearly articulate the party platform and build coalitions? No contenders on the horizon, but maybe I'm missing something.

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by PeterC » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:48 am

justsit wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:34 am
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:21 pm
justsit wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:00 pm
I'm looking at it more from the perspective of, "Is this something that realistically can be addressed in the next two years so we have a solid chance to remove Trump?"
You think that the only way to remove Trump is to replace him with a Democratic Party candidate that is his political twin???
No, of course not. But which Democrat has a snowball's chance of beating Trump in 2020? Where are the strong party leaders who can clearly articulate the party platform and build coalitions? No contenders on the horizon, but maybe I'm missing something.
All the polling was pretty clear that Bernie would have beaten Trump in a straight race, but HC's chances against him were considerably weaker.

I agree that none of the obvious democrat candidates have a hope in hell at this point. A presidential win in 2020 will need an outsider - someone not currently in politics. The anti-Trump, if you like. But not Oprah, that would be a complete disaster.

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:11 pm

Nemo wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:53 am
The easiest way to do that is to tax stagnant money from the rich and invest in infrastructure, education and health care.
Ding ding ding! We have a winner!
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:18 pm

justsit wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:34 am
No, of course not. But which Democrat has a snowball's chance of beating Trump in 2020? Where are the strong party leaders who can clearly articulate the party platform and build coalitions? No contenders on the horizon, but maybe I'm missing something.
This is depressingly true.

Every stooge that Democratic leaders have floated is some flavor of donor approved, focus group tested loser. They're trying to hit so many messages that their sentences are just garbled nonsense.

Back to my original point - the message is very simple - healthcare, infrastructure, and humane immigration fix. (Education is kind of a hot mess with no clear actionable direction - we might be best leaving that aside for now...)

We are going to raise taxes on the 1% for the benefit of the 100%. Everyone will benefit by improving conditions for working and middle classes.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:37 pm

PeterC wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:48 am
A presidential win in 2020 will need an outsider - someone not currently in politics. The anti-Trump, if you like. But not Oprah, that would be a complete disaster.
I'm ambivalent, only because he doesn't stoke any enthusiasm and he's a from the Master of the Universe/Davos class - Michael Bloomberg.

He's rational, he knows how to get large, chaotic institutions moving efficiently (what he did with NYC bureaucracy is truly amazing - he tamed it and made it civil and polite), he understands the issues and is eminently practical. He brings an MBA type management skills to government. Unlike Trump, he is a real business man who built a very large organization that functions very, very well. The drawback is he's a Davos crowd liberal and fundamentally believes in supply side economics. A debate between him and Trump would be very entertaining. Bloomberg is part of the NYC elite crowd that looks down their noses at Trump and sees him for the clown he is. Bloomberg is richer than Trump and when Trump tries to talk about how great deal maker he is, Bloomberg will be able to skewer him about deal making.

Another possibility is Michael Avenatti... the guy is a bull dog and when Trump tries his twitter tirades, Avenatti is quick enough and malicious enough to go after him and embarrass him. We'd all get dragged into the gutter if it came down to those two guys.

Personally, I'd vote for the Rock. Because, why not? Professional wrestler turned blockbuster movie star. He's got the common touch and able to talk to regular people because that's the stock he comes from. If all else fails, he can body slam Trump and smash a chair over his head.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:42 pm

I'd also vote for Jeff Bezos. The guy is a genius.

His recent comments about Silicon Valley and DoD hit the right note.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:33 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:42 pm
I'd also vote for Jeff Bezos. The guy is a genius.

His recent comments about Silicon Valley and DoD hit the right note.
Yuck, no. Amazon is already defacto monopoly trying to take over aspects of government. Big Tech in general wields a level of power and influence that is pretty much unprecedented, no thanks, to any of their political aspirations. Amazon is also fine with wrecking regional economies, while refusing to pay it's share, screw that dude.

A future with people like Bezos in political power (as if he doesn't have it already) is a continuation of the digitized, globalized Gilded Age, regardless of if they sfloat cute little ideas like UBI, or charitably agree to pay their employees just enough to technically be above the poverty level.
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:50 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:33 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:42 pm
I'd also vote for Jeff Bezos. The guy is a genius.

His recent comments about Silicon Valley and DoD hit the right note.
Yuck, no. Amazon is already defacto monopoly trying to take over aspects of government. Big Tech in general wields a level of power and influence that is pretty much unprecedented, no thanks, to any of their political aspirations. Amazon is also fine with wrecking regional economies, while refusing to pay it's share, screw that dude.
If Bezos can make government as efficient as Prime, sign me up.

I'm kidding. Not kidding.

I know the sausage making process underlying Prime is ugly. Bezos, though, is not your usual Silicon Valley bro... he's got no airs about making the world a happy brighter place. That's actually why I'm a fan of his. He's just a business man and makes no apologies about it. As for monopoly... maybe, but its actual bringing a benefit to consumers... its not doing right by ground level employees... but they'll all be replaced by robots and drones soon whether Amazon does it or someone else. I write that will all seriousness and with full concern about the human misery that will bring with it in the short to medium term. Amazon is doing well because there are so many inefficiencies in our economy. They are about to blow up pharma and health insurance. They are pushing us to the next economy which is coming like or not. In the meantime, you are absolutely right, the human toll of disruption is not acceptable and we need to do far more to ameliorate it. But its something way bigger than Amazon. Its about the overall structure of the economy and has to do with the allocation of global resources - and that is a bigger issue than Amazon. I would like to see Bezos tackle those issues.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:52 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:50 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:33 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:42 pm
I'd also vote for Jeff Bezos. The guy is a genius.

His recent comments about Silicon Valley and DoD hit the right note.
Yuck, no. Amazon is already defacto monopoly trying to take over aspects of government. Big Tech in general wields a level of power and influence that is pretty much unprecedented, no thanks, to any of their political aspirations. Amazon is also fine with wrecking regional economies, while refusing to pay it's share, screw that dude.
If Bezos can make government as efficient as Prime, sign me up.

I'm kidding. Not kidding.

I know the sausage making process underlying Prime is ugly. Bezos, though, is not your usual Silicon Valley bro... he's got no airs about making the world a happy brighter place. That's actually why I'm a fan of his. He's just a business man and makes no apologies about it. As for monopoly... maybe, but its actual bringing a benefit to consumers... its not doing right by ground level employees... but they'll all be replaced by robots and drones soon whether Amazon does it or someone else. I write that will all seriousness and with full concern about the human misery that will bring with it in the short to medium term. Amazon is doing well because there are so many inefficiencies in our economy. They are about to blow up pharma and health insurance. They are pushing us to the next economy which is coming like or not. In the meantime, you are absolutely right, the human toll of disruption is not acceptable and we need to do far more to ameliorate it. But its something way bigger than Amazon. Its about the overall structure of the economy and has to do with the allocation of global resources - and that is a bigger issue than Amazon. I would like to see Bezos tackle those issues.

Dude, Amazon is partially responsible for a lot of the homelessness in my town, and yet Bezos refused to pay for the damage he's done, again, screw that guy. I want to see him and his ilk with less power, not more. I don't think these guys are any part of the solution, they are a symptom of the problem. Automation is a bugaboo excuse for companies like Amazon to behave as they do and then say "oh but look it's just how the world is going". Sorry, when a company the size of Amazon can shop around the country for new cities to host it, when the cities know full well that their eventual lot is a bunch of impoverished people who can no longer afford rent and must flee elsewhere, a little money in city coffers, and some working-poor level jobs...there is no real benefit. People like Bezos and the structures he represents need to be reigned in, not given more power, as soon as the Democrats understand the necessity of breaking the corporate stranglehold over all levels of politics, -then- they will be a real alternative to Trump, until then they are just the mild mannered corporate lackeys they've been for the last at least 30 years....and are not worth my support.

No way in hell I am voting for another technocratic, pro-corporate Democrat in my lifetime, i'm done with them.
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:59 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:52 pm


Dude, Amazon is partially responsible for a lot of the homelessness in my town, and yet Bezos refused to pay for the damage he's done, again, screw that guy. I want to see him and his ilk with less power, not more.
Because they drive up the real estate costs? Real estate is slow to adapt to conditions. NYC has had a false scarcity for a while driving up prices... at this moment, there is a glut of new construction hitting the market and prices are now dropping.

Reak Estate is a problem.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... stay-weird
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:03 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:59 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:52 pm


Dude, Amazon is partially responsible for a lot of the homelessness in my town, and yet Bezos refused to pay for the damage he's done, again, screw that guy. I want to see him and his ilk with less power, not more.
Because they drive up the real estate costs? Real estate is slow to adapt to conditions. NYC has had a false scarcity for a while driving up prices... at this moment, there is a glut of new construction hitting the market and prices are now dropping.

Reak Estate is a problem.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... stay-weird
Well, if we are just posting links https://www.theatlantic.com/business/ar ... es/552020/

If you don't see what companies like Amazon are actually doing, or why their influence is a problem, both in practical day to day terms, and in terms of democracy, then our points of view are too divergent to make it worth a protracted conversation. I actually live near this stuff and get to see the "benefit" you are touting.
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:07 pm

Well, then, I guess all I can say is, noted. My general view of Bezos is not without reservations. I have deep reservations about many things. But, its OK. I'll be the straw man for corporatism.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:08 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:07 pm
Well, then, I guess all I can say is, noted. My general view of Bezos is not without reservations. I have deep reservations about many things. But, its OK. I'll be the straw man for corporatism.
Straw man? You just said you'd vote for the guy lol.....If you don't want to hold the wealth-hoarders accountable that's your prerogative, but saying in the same breath that you support the uber-rich actually paying their share, but would support Bezos holding the ultimate political power is a little contradictory, the first thing would never happened if the second did.
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:10 pm

SMH. Have a day.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:11 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:10 pm
SMH. Have a day.
Yeah, Like I said, you don't live around or work with the results of Amazon-ification. My guess is you'd feel a little less enthused if you did.

You "have a day" too, though I'm not sure why that was necessary.
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:58 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:11 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:10 pm
SMH. Have a day.
Yeah, Like I said, you don't live around or work with the results of Amazon-ification. My guess is you'd feel a little less enthused if you did.

You "have a day" too, though I'm not sure why that was necessary.
I'm dismissive of you because you started with the dismisiveness AND made it personal
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:03 pm
If you don't see what companies like Amazon are actually doing, or why their influence is a problem, both in practical day to day terms, and in terms of democracy, then our points of view are too divergent to make it worth a protracted conversation. I actually live near this stuff and get to see the "benefit" you are touting.
And you continued in that vein.

Since my experience is now the issue, I'll point out -

I live in a major metro area that has been a big city longer than your town has been inhabited by Europeans. Believe it or not, we have a significant homeless problem, one that has been chronic for decades, caused by forces that function similarly but are much more diverse than Amazon. You see, this is not a one company town.

As I pointed out above, real estate is a tough issue. Its slow to respond to market forces, and tends to be exacerbated by the kinds of forces Yglesias pointed out about Austin - ie. NIMBY. Its always a fight to develop affordable housing. But, as much as I believe that distribution of wealth needs to be adjusted, killing off businesses because they do what they do doesn't make sense either.

Another guy I suggested to run was Bloomberg. That guy, there is a lot to criticize and the progressive end of the political spectrum would probably hate him, but, he's effective and checks off enough boxes - better than most other options. I would like to see Bezos' genius applied to the problems of government. I would not be OK with him running government for his own benefit, but I think he's smart enough to be able to put his business aside and apply his ability and skill to public service.

Is there a realistic alternative model?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:10 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:58 pm


As I pointed out above, real estate is a tough issue. Its slow to respond to market forces, and tends to be exacerbated by the kinds of forces Yglesias pointed out about Austin - ie. NIMBY. Its always a fight to develop affordable housing. But, as much as I believe that distribution of wealth needs to be adjusted, killing off businesses because they do what they do doesn't make sense either.
Sure real estate is problem everywhere, outside of Amazon etc...However, keeping a big portion of one's workforce living hand to mouth has to do with a lot more than real estate prices. It would take a lot to "kill off" Amazon, they have not being paying their piece for a long time now, and I hardly think criticizing them as what they are - basically E-Walmart (with a liberal figurehead) is "killing their business", on many different levels they are taking advantage of the populace, not the other way around.
Is there a realistic alternative model?
I don't know really, stop voting for businessmen? I mean honestly to me the real alternative model is more power in communities, and less municipal/corporate graft so that companies like Amazon and others can't take advantage of the population and ultimately force a certain % of people onto food stamps etc, forcing the public to yet again finance them, and in another manner.

As far as who to vote for, I don't know, to me that's a small tactical decision and I don't expect to have choices I like. From my point of view another corporate Democrat in office is to a large degree an illusion of change, I get that they will half-ass try to preserve roe v. wade, be less bigoted and and least not totally destroy what's left of the commons (they'd prefer to just make it more profitable for the rich)..that might make it a smart tactical decision in terms of voting, but it hardly makes people like that an "alternative", in my eyes. that's particularly true when looking at international politics, where Democrats have themselves to be every bit the warmongers that Republicans have been.
I live in a major metro area that has been a big city longer than your town has been inhabited by Europeans. Believe it or not, we have a significant homeless problem, one that has been chronic for decades, caused by forces that function similarly but are much more diverse than Amazon. You see, this is not a one company town.
Not sure this disproves my point, given Amazon's influence in Seattle.

Trumpism is here to stay IMO until there's a viable political alternative for pissed off people on the other side, and the only inkling of that so far is Bernie, but I suspect that many of the people in the party currently running with these ideas are nothing but opportunists, and won't implement much of anything if they get in, I hope i'm wrong...it's a sad situation all around.
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:26 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:10 pm
Keeping a big portion of one's workforce living hand to mouth has to do with a lot more than real estate prices. It would take a lot to "kill off" Amazon, they have not being paying their piece for a long time now, and I hardly think criticizing them as what they are - basically E-Walmart (with a liberal figurehead) is "killing their business", on many different levels they are taking advantage of the populace, not the other way around.
I think we fundamentally agree here - look above, by no means do I think Amazon shouldn't be criticized. As you allude, Amazon is basically E-Walmart. Walmart is doing the same thing to their ground level workforce as Amazon - paying them as little as possible and effectively getting social safety nets to subsidize the work force. This was one of the things I was saying is bigger than Amazon. The solution to that problem is collective bargaining which I am fully aware of that Amazon is rabidly against.

Until labor is willing to fight Pinkertons in the street and vote for militant labor representatives on election day, things are not going to change for the lower end of the economic spectrum.

At the same time, it seems too limiting to not acknowledge Bezos' genius and consider what he might do if we could be assured he could put aside his business interests and be be devoted to the commonwealth.
Is there a realistic alternative model?
I don't know really, stop voting for businessmen? mean honestly to me the real alternative model is more power in communities, and less municipal/corporate graft so that companies like Amazon and others can't take advantage of the population and ultimately force a certain % of people onto the welfare rolls, forcing the public to yet again finance them, and in another manner.

As far as who to vote for, I don't know, to me that's a small tactical decision and I don't expect to have choices I like. From my point of view another corporate Democrat in office is to a large degree an illusion of change, I get that they will half-ass try to preserve roe v. wade, be less bigoted and and least not totally destroy what's left of the commons (they'd prefer to just make it more profitable for the rich)..that might make it a smart tactical decision in terms of voting, but it hardly makes people like that an "alternative", in my eyes.

Like I wrote above, "check enough boxes".

There are no cakravartins or philosopher kings to choose from. Just the usual suspects.

I actually believe that there are guys/gals who have the management capabilities and the ability to be bigger than themselves when called to public service.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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