Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

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Queequeg
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:48 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:43 pm
You think the Labour Party is far-left???
To some people... but the bigger point here, Greg, I think almost everyone is on the right compared to you... :tongue:
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:00 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:00 pm
The "conspiracy" is in the way the so-called "dunces" have been convinced that their vote is pointless. Rich people may have one vote each....but all votes are not equal. Money buys votes, and canny manipulators know how to use their money to buy the votes that will influence the game in their favor, or to their advantage.
Who convinces voters that their vote doesn't count? I generally hear this from malcontents - not from the rich. Rich people put their money into gerrymandering and voter suppression to minimize the impact of natural Democrats, and targeted messaging to fire up their base.

Money doesn't buy votes per se - not since Boss Tweed would round up the drunks and pay them on their way out of the voting place.

Money buys the means to terra-form the American gestalt. The effect is way more pernicious and subversive.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Mantrik » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:04 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:43 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:38 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:06 pm


I am not sure it's just the USA, though....look at Brexit, and some other movements in Europe and elsewhere.
In the UK we have lost our 'centre' party completely and have polarised into far left and far right parties which will make for interesting elections where many people will feel neither side represents them.
You think the Labour Party is far-left???
In the context of British politics, yes.
The Lib Dems imploded leaving the middle ground empty.
Labour packed its membership (cost £1) with sheeple like students and built a personality cult around an anti-Semitic Marxist with all the charisma of a superannuated supply teacher unable to control a class of 12 year olds.
You seriously can't claim Comrades Corbyn and McDonnell are anything other than communists, albeit stemming from a time when ti was sexy to wear a duffle coat with a CND badge and have a Che poster in your room. They have their equally extreme right wing extremist counterparts, of course, moving ever closer to power in the Tory party.
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Grigoris » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:41 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:04 pm
You seriously can't claim Comrades Corbyn and McDonnell are anything other than communists...
A communist? Are you out of your mind. A very liberal social democrat.
They have their equally extreme right wing extremist counterparts, of course, moving ever closer to power in the Tory party.
You think that corporatist neo-nazis are in the same league as Corbyn??? Now I know you are out of your mind.

Oh yeah: supporting Palestinian rights does not make you anti-Semitic. Palestinians are Semites too.
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Mantrik » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:54 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:41 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:04 pm
You seriously can't claim Comrades Corbyn and McDonnell are anything other than communists...
A communist? Are you out of your mind. A very liberal social democrat.
They have their equally extreme right wing extremist counterparts, of course, moving ever closer to power in the Tory party.
You think that corporatist neo-nazis are in the same league as Corbyn??? Now I know you are out of your mind.

Oh yeah: supporting Palestinian rights does not make you anti-Semitic. Palestinians are Semites too.
As you wish. There is a wealth of evidence from both their pasts and their more recent associations.
Corbyn's IRA links, as a victim of their bombs, doesn't exactly fill me with admiration. He was always an ass-licking protestor.....about every fashionable cause there was.......mostly against the Labour Party itself!

OK, if you want to play games with the vocab, let's just use Corbyn's 'Zio' term instead.

You are inventing straw man assertions again, my friend. I mentioned that they had their right wing extreme counterparts........the rest is all in your head. ;)

Hilarious that you laud the fool who promoted Venezuela as his vision of economic and social heaven! You may want him running the Greek economy but forgive me if I decline his vision for us.

I've no more to say about him. It's all on record.
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Grigoris » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:59 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:54 pm
Corbyn's IRA links, as a victim of their bombs..
Why do you feel it is necessary to bring out that pony every time? Corbyn was not an IRA bomber.
Hilarious that you laud the fool who promoted Venezuela as his vision of economic and social heaven! You may want him running the Greek economy but forgive me if I decline his vision for us.
And who's vision makes you all hot and moist then? May's? Maybe a full blown feudalism (again)? Who would you prefer running the UK?

PS If you do not know the difference between a Semite and a Zionist, then maybe you should not be commenting on the issue.

PPS I am not lauding anybody, I am just pointing out the gaping holes in your logic.
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Mantrik » Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:15 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:59 pm
And who's vision makes you all hot and moist then? May's? Maybe a full blown feudalism (again)? Who would you prefer running the UK?
Socialist Europhiles. Sadly, I can't really name one - the late Charles Kennedy. Even David Milliband would be more able to galvanise the electorate than Corbynski.
Surprised?
I abhor the far right as much as the far left.
By 'Europhile' I don't mean the EU Eurocracy currently wrecking the region by over-extending in every sense, but a shared respect for culture and fair trade which works to provide incentive for creation of wealth and eradication of poverty.
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Malcolm » Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:21 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:35 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:57 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:31 pm
neoliberalism...
...has in fact lifted a billion people on the planet out of chronic poverty. It just hasn't done good things for the American working class. But America First, right? In other words, what I mostly see here is people obsessing about American jobs and American politics, but there is a much wider context to consider here.

I find it really interesting that both the right and the left in this country are retreating into isolationism.
Prioritizing the well being of oneself and one's neighbors does not amount to isolationism. Insisting that terms of international engagement be rebalanced is not isolationism. Those kinds of policies can be called a lot of things, but not necessarily isolationism.
In fact, they are isolationist. What we are seeing is a return to the discredited and bankrupt American System, from Merriam-Webster:
: the policy of promoting industry in the U.S. by adoption of a high protective tariff and of developing internal improvements by the federal government (as advocated by Henry Clay from 1816 to 1828)
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:57 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:31 pm
neoliberalism...
...has in fact lifted a billion people on the planet out of chronic poverty. It just hasn't done good things for the American working class. But America First, right? In other words, what I mostly see here is people obsessing about American jobs and American politics, but there is a much wider context to consider here.
Obviously, it is deeply a question of opinion and spin to claim neoliberal economic doctrines "lifted a billion people out of poverty", and there are people all over the world who disagree, especially those who have faced the military enforcement end of it.

At any rate, my criticism was leveled at it's effect on democracy specifically, not it's ability to create wealth...for someone or other. The underlying assumption is that somehow an improved economic situation (well, for some people anyway) justifies the hollowing out of the commons, and the deficit to democracy...I am not an isolationist, but i'm not in favor of multinational corporations subverting and reducing the power of democratically elected governments and getting to decide the direction of the world economy with little or no input from the people at he bottom who generate their wealth.
I find it really interesting that both the right and the left in this country are retreating into isolationism.
And I find it interesting how many liberals and progressives have discovered their deep and abiding love of the status quo since Trump was elected :D
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Grigoris » Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:32 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:15 pm
Socialist Europhiles. Sadly, I can't really name one - the late Charles Kennedy. Even David Milliband would be more able to galvanise the electorate than Corbynski.
Surprised?
No, why should I be surprised?
I abhor the far right as much as the far left.
Dude: Get over it! Corbyn is not far-left!

Actually, socialist europhiles (socialist internationalists) would be way further left than Corbyn (which is not all that difficult, actually).
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Grigoris » Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:34 pm

The Cicada wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:13 pm
Is the IRA really that bad? 🤔
As bad as the (occupying) British Army, given they both were involved in randomly terrorising civilian populations.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Mantrik » Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:52 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:34 pm
The Cicada wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:13 pm
Is the IRA really that bad? 🤔
As bad as the (occupying) British Army, given they both were involved in randomly terrorising civilian populations.
Yes, the British Army occupied.......er....Britain. The N Irish population had terrorists on both sides of a sectarian civil war. The IRA massacred innocent civilians all over the UK. Your equation of the two is ignorant. I had many first hand reports from those involved in the fighting, aside from my own experiences.

Corbyn typified this kind of middle class adoption and promotion of an 'oppression' myth, inviting murderers to tea and ignoring the victims completely in his quest for right-on plaudits.

Of course US money paid for the slaughter and torture.
Last edited by Mantrik on Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by kirtu » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:07 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:34 pm
The Cicada wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:13 pm
Is the IRA really that bad? 🤔
As bad as the (occupying) British Army, given they both were involved in randomly terrorising civilian populations.
Many US Irish families with close ties often said things like - "The IRA, the second worst terrorists in the UK" or they assigned the British Army that assessment.

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Mantrik » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:47 pm

kirtu wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:07 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:34 pm
The Cicada wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:13 pm
Is the IRA really that bad? 🤔
As bad as the (occupying) British Army, given they both were involved in randomly terrorising civilian populations.
Many US Irish families with close ties often said things like - "The IRA, the second worst terrorists in the UK" or they assigned the British Army that assessment.

Kirt
US diaspora were useful idiots, easily led to fund some romantic notion of a fight for reunification. Irish diaspora families in the UK however, knew better. Some had sons in the army and learned about the reality, as I did, with friends shot by arms paid for with US dollars. The army also had to deal with the Protestant UDA, whose terrorism you/they seem to have forgotten.
While their pawns played out the tragedy the politicians on all sides, murderers included, decided to stop the games for a while. Nobody has disarmed and I am pretty sure the slaughter will renew whatever Brexit leads to.
Reunification is the sane option, but the death toll it would entail makes it a poor choice.
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by MiphamFan » Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:22 pm

There is nothing wrong with protectionism to build up your country's industry, every single nation which successfully industralized did that while those who embraced the World Bank et al's policies of free trade remain stuck to this day.

Successes: Meiji Japan (Americans forced them to have free trade at the beginning, but as soon as they could, they set their own tariffs), Taiwan, Korea, China.

Failures: The Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia.

Engels' explanation:
It may now be 15 years ago, I traveled in a railway carriage with an intelligent Glasgow merchant, interested probably in the iron trade. Talking abut America, he treated me to the old Free Trade lubrications:

"Was it not inconceivable that a nation of sharp businessmen like the Americans should pay tribute to indigenous ironmasters and manufacturers, when they could buy the same, if not a better article, ever so much cheaper in this country?"

And then he gave me examples as to how much the Americans taxed themselves in order to enrich a few greedy ironmasters.

"Well," I replied, "I think there is another side to the question. You know that in coal, waterpower, iron, and other ores, cheap food, homegrown cotton, and other raw materials, America has resources and advantages unequalled by any European country; and that these resources cannot be fully developed except by America becoming a manufacturing country. You will admit, too, that nowadays a, great nation like the Americans' cannot exist on agriculture alone; that would be tantamount to a condemnation to permanent barbarism and inferiority; no great nation can live, in our age, without manufactures of her own. Well, then, if America must become a manufacturing country, and if she has every chance of not only succeeding but even outstripping her rivals, there are two ways open to her: either to carry on for, let us say, 50 years under Free Trade an extremely expensive competitive war against English manufactures that have got nearly a hundred years start; or else to shut out, by protective duties, English manufactures for, say, 25 years, with the almost absolute certainty that at the end of the 25 years she will be able to hold her own in the open market of the world. Which of the two will be the cheapest and the shortest? That is the question. If you want to go from Glasgow to London, you take the parliamentary train at a penny a mile and travel at the rate of 12 miles an hour. But you do not; your time is too valuable, you take the express, pay twopence a mile and do 40 miles an hour. Very well, the Americans prefer to pay express fare and to go express speed."

My Scotch Free Trade had not a word in reply.
US industry has been eaten up by Asia. All the unemployed would have been factory workers in former times.

Today, with automation taking away even more manual jobs, I think it's honestly insane that anyone would support an open border policy. How many people, whether immigrants or locals, are going to be AI scientists and engineers?

The crazy thing about US trade is that your tax dollars even subsidize small imports from China.
Last edited by MiphamFan on Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:34 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:34 pm
The Cicada wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:13 pm
Is the IRA really that bad? 🤔
As bad as the (occupying) British Army, given they both were involved in randomly terrorising civilian populations.
Didn't they (the IRA) also crucify people? Or is that an urban legend?
如無為、如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by PeterC » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:07 am

The Cicada wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:13 pm
Is the IRA really that bad? 🤔
How can you say that. You must know very little about them

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Minobu » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:02 am

PeterC wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:07 am
The Cicada wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:13 pm
Is the IRA really that bad? 🤔
How can you say that. You must know very little about them
my grand mother used to send back money for the boys weekly...for years my father grew up with two or three guys who were IRA hiding in Montreal in his home...they sat at the end of the dining room table..ate three squares came and went and you were not allowed to speak to them...they were like not there...they never spoke you never noticed them..even during your supper...all his childhood...she was Irish and grand dad was Italian and just looked at it like some weirdo irish mafia thing you put a blind eye to.

IRA killed people...innocent people died....people grew up destroyed...my grand mother is probably paying some karmic price for aiding terrorists..

my parents grand parent are all long dead ...i wonder how they are faring...grand Ma was a staunch Catholic who supported terrorism...not unlike American tax payers funding American bullshit economic wars...ya'll will pay the piper...

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Nemo » Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:17 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:43 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:38 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:06 pm


I am not sure it's just the USA, though....look at Brexit, and some other movements in Europe and elsewhere.
In the UK we have lost our 'centre' party completely and have polarised into far left and far right parties which will make for interesting elections where many people will feel neither side represents them.
You think the Labour Party is far-left???
That is the magic of McCarthyism. Being far left was treason. You couldn't even be a high school teacher or be a union steward. So now when American's say left they actually mean centrist. They don't even remember that liberal centrists were supposed to be the safety valve for incremental change between the left and the right. Without the left they simply slow the right and nothing else. I think they do poorly because they have lost their reason to exist.

My problem is I've been in and out of politics for 30 years. I remember a time before every corporation had a PR department and paid lobbyists. Back then only tobacco played the disinformation game well. At 19 I got CFC recycling added to the Montreal Protocol. Environmentalists were so powerful we passed a global legal structure that completely changed industry. Back then I worked with Conservatives to create the scientific infrastructure that would prove conclusively that global warming was a serious threat. We also passed the strongest environmental laws for protecting inland waterways in Canadian history. Sadly this party no longer exists. It was "renovated" much like the Republican Party.

I noticed the changes starting when environmentalists started getting picked off. Triple our salaries to work for corporations. 35k to 85k was a big jump in the 80s. Then a recession happened and the oligarchs escaped with globalization and deregulating offshore capital. I decided Buddhist spiritual development was more important than social concerns and left for awhile. When I came back to politics it was a very different game. It was just factions warring with one another. Money played a much larger roll in any leadership bid or election. It became a rare exception when a leadership position wasn't won by the biggest spender. Then their job was to pay back the favors to the money guys while pretending to be caring what constituents or caucus wanted. That did make me feel less powerful than when good ideas could change the world. It would be worrying if I did not feel that. I got pretty angry that a deal wasn't being honored and took out the Surgeon General of the army and then tarnished the reputation of the Minister of Finance who is also a billionaire. I was told that legal proceeding were being prepared against me for slander, but also that I could walk away and get a really wonderful lifetime payout. So I don't feel powerless Malcolm. I feel guilty. Instead of having my life destroyed fighting for change in a rapidly degenerating political arena I took the cash for life lottery ticket. I'm telling you how the system is corrupted out of a sense of personal responsibility. I can play the game well, but they made it impossible to good things for everyone. Now it just spits out money.

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Grigoris » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:55 am

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:52 pm
Yes, the British Army occupied.......er....Britain.
...er... Ireland.
The N Irish population had terrorists on both sides of a sectarian civil war.
Ain't that the truth
The IRA massacred innocent civilians all over the UK.
And the British Army massacred civilians.

Total dead during "The troubles" was 3500. Of those 1,740 (1,100 of which were military personnel) were killed by the IRA.
Your equation of the two is ignorant.
Indeed it is, as it does not take into account the number of massacres the British Army has been involved in at a global level. That would skew the results disproportionately in favor of the IRA as an infinitely less murderous organisation. Not having engaged in genocide and all that...
Corbyn typified this kind of middle class adoption and promotion of an 'oppression' myth...
There was no oppression and (ongoing) occupation in/of Northern Ireland???
Reunification is the sane option, but the death toll it would entail makes it a poor choice.
Of course. What with the government of Ireland having proven themselves time and again as a bunch of profit-centered racist war-mongering genocidal imperialists... :roll:

Has your wife been slipping Jimson Weed into your green salad again? :tongue:
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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