Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

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Grigoris
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Grigoris » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:04 am

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:47 pm
US diaspora were useful idiots
Yeah, those dumb Irish... :roll:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Mantrik » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:29 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:04 am
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:47 pm
US diaspora were useful idiots
Yeah, those dumb Irish... :roll:
The phrase was used by Russians about the agents they used in the UK. Unwitting supporters of a totally hostile foreign power. Corbyn was deemed too low level and stupid even for that.
The diaspora were wealthy US citizens, not Irish except by descent.
Their money paid for IRA mass murders and such lovely pastimes as blasting the kneecaps off anyone in their own communities who stood up to them.
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Grigoris » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:37 am

Mantrik wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:29 am
The phrase was used by Russians about the agents they used in the UK. Unwitting supporters of a totally hostile foreign power. Corbyn was deemed too low level and stupid even for that.
This sentence does not make any sense.
The diaspora were wealthy US citizens, not Irish except by descent.
??? What does this even mean ??? All Irish (or English, or Greeks, or...) are Irish (or English, or Greek, or...) by descent.

Are the British troops occupying Northern Ireland even Irish by descent? So why are they supporting the English government's actions in Northern Ireland?

Think before you post.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by PeterC » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:58 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:37 am
Are the British troops occupying Northern Ireland...
The idea that today’s IRA are a fighting a war of national resistance is complete fantasy. It was true in the days of Michael Collins, but the Real IRA (and arguably the provos before them) are nothing more than criminal organizations that appropriated their predecessors’ names.

Don’t know how we got to this from US democrats...except perhaps that before the good friday agreement it was a faction of them that was partly funding one side in the war. I think that’s largely stopped now, contrary to Mantrik’s belief.

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Grigoris » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:03 am

PeterC wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:58 am
The idea that today’s IRA are a fighting a war of national resistance is complete fantasy.
I did not say anything about the current actions of the IRA, I was talking about the continued English occupation of Northern Ireland.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by PeterC » Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:16 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:03 am
PeterC wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:58 am
The idea that today’s IRA are a fighting a war of national resistance is complete fantasy.
I did not say anything about the current actions of the IRA, I was talking about the continued English occupation of Northern Ireland.
It read like whataboutism. Do you concur on the point about the IRA?

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Knotty Veneer » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:59 pm

Speaking as someone who grew up in Belfast in the 1st half of the troubles, I'd say.
  • The IRA did some horrible things
  • Loyalist paramilitaries did some truly horrific things too
  • The Govt forces were anything but impartial, they colluded with Loyalist paramilitiaries, they carried out extra-judicial murders and treated both sides in a manner that they would not have used on English civilians.
All sides have their justifications and the lies they tell themselves so they can sleep at night. Whataboutery solves nothing. All sides need to take the blame they are due and move beyond. Our problem remains few are willing to see beyond tribal identity.

Brexit and fast approaching demographic change will eventually lead to calls for a United Ireland again. And I fear we will be back where we were 20 years ago once again.
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:19 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:59 pm
Speaking as someone who grew up in Belfast in the 1st half of the troubles, I'd say.
  • The IRA did some horrible things
  • Loyalist paramilitaries did some truly horrific things too
  • The Govt forces were anything but impartial, they colluded with Loyalist paramilitiaries, they carried out extra-judicial murders and treated both sides in a manner that they would not have used on English civilians.
All sides have their justifications and the lies they tell themselves so they can sleep at night. Whataboutery solves nothing. All sides need to take the blame they are due and move beyond. Our problem remains few are willing to see beyond tribal identity.

Brexit and fast approaching demographic change will eventually lead to calls for a United Ireland again. And I fear we will be back where we were 20 years ago once again.
Amazing... for a generation we thought we had escaped the past.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Mantrik » Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:26 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:37 am
Mantrik wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:29 am
The phrase was used by Russians about the agents they used in the UK. Unwitting supporters of a totally hostile foreign power. Corbyn was deemed too low level and stupid even for that.
This sentence does not make any sense.
The diaspora were wealthy US citizens, not Irish except by descent.
??? What does this even mean ??? All Irish (or English, or Greeks, or...) are Irish (or English, or Greek, or...) by descent.

Are the British troops occupying Northern Ireland even Irish by descent? So why are they supporting the English government's actions in Northern Ireland?

Think before you post.
You seem to be struggling. Let me make a list for you:

1. The Russians set about identifying 'useful idiots' - UK citizens who were useful and stupid enough to further their cause, easily manipulated. (Corbyn matched the profile but wasn't useful enough so they dumped him. He was deemed a willing idiot but not useful. He still seems keen.)

2. The IRA set about identifying similarly useful idiots - US citizens who were useful and stupid enough to further their cause. In this case, they sought wealthy people of Irish descent. I have no doubt that if the IRA needed more arms in the future, US ctizens would send money or send the arms themselves.Interestingly, I wouldn't be surprised if there were supporters for the UDA in the USA as well.

3. British troops tend to be British, including those from N Ireland, who were and are also British. It's a fact - disliking it doesn't change it. The local police became an armed force and thus part of the civil war, ostensibly keeping the factions apart, but ending up as partisan, and mainly dealing with the IRA terrorism and gangsterism. Border patrols were a very significant feature.......and likely to return if Brexit happens and there is no free movement.

There. Now, you've only paid for the 5 minute argument and the sun is shining. ;)
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Knotty Veneer » Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:35 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:19 pm

Amazing... for a generation we thought we had escaped the past.
Alas, no so amazing in my opinion. The Irish have been battling the British presence in Ireland for many centuries. In a country that has always put more emphasis on the past than on the future a return to violence was probably inevitable.

A united Ireland is probably only 25 years away at most, as the Protestant majority in Northern Ireland will soon be overtaken by nationalists. Already 49% of 5 year olds are Catholic as opposed to 36% Protestant (or so I read recently).

A united Ireland of course will be preceded by trouble and and the new state have to endure trouble for many years thereafter even if it were done in the most even-handed and democratic way. Some Loyalists will simply refuse to accept it.

We have loyalist politicians who would rather see a hard border and economic chaos for Northern Ireland after Brexit than see the region treated differntly from the rest of the UK. Can you imagine what they'd do if a Catholic majority voted to leave the UK?

It's sad but I don't see how we will avoid more "troubles" in the medium term.
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Grigoris » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:34 pm

PeterC wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:16 am
It read like whataboutism.
You read wrong.
Do you concur on the point about the IRA?
Your point is a straw man, that is why I reiterated my earlier logic.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Grigoris » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:39 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:26 pm
You seem to be struggling. Let me make a list for you:

1. The Russians set about identifying 'useful idiots'
Proof? Sounds too much like a conspiracy theory to me.
2. The IRA set about identifying similarly useful idiots...
So supporting struggles for national liberation is the task of idiots. Noted.
It's a fact - disliking it doesn't change it.
Doesn't answer my question, but at least you are recognizing the UK's role as an occupier.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Malcolm » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:48 pm

MiphamFan wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:22 pm
There is nothing wrong with protectionism to build up your country's industry, every single nation which successfully industralized did that while those who embraced the World Bank et al's policies of free trade remain stuck to this day.
Protectionism amounts to taxing your own people for buying foreign goods.
US industry has been eaten up by Asia. All the unemployed would have been factory workers in former times.
In the words of David Chapelle, we don't want Nikes that are made here, they would cost $3000.

Today, with automation taking away even more manual jobs, I think it's honestly insane that anyone would support an open border policy. How many people, whether immigrants or locals, are going to be AI scientists and engineers?
The fact of the matter is that most US manufacturing jobs have been eliminated by automation, not by foreign labor markets.
The crazy thing about US trade is that your tax dollars even subsidize small imports from China.
Global markets are global because money flows do not obey border controls, and they never have.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Mantrik » Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:11 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:39 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:26 pm
You seem to be struggling. Let me make a list for you:

1. The Russians set about identifying 'useful idiots'
Proof? Sounds too much like a conspiracy theory to me.
2. The IRA set about identifying similarly useful idiots...
So supporting struggles for national liberation is the task of idiots. Noted.
It's a fact - disliking it doesn't change it.
Doesn't answer my question, but at least you are recognizing the UK's role as an occupier.
Agent Cob, aka the fantasist Corbyn, likes to entertain terrorist murderers and support just about any regime which hates the UK, presumably because he feels a vicarious frisson of potency otherwise lost to the old codger.

Guardian (left wing enough source?):

''Yesterday’s spy can be tomorrow’s incorrigible gossip. Take, for instance, Ján Sarkocy, the former Czechoslovak intelligence officer, who has become positively garrulous in the past week about his alleged contact between 1986 and 1989 with Labour MPs. Having already claimed that he paid Jeremy Corbyn for information to pass on to Prague and Moscow – a charge the Labour leader vehemently denies – Sarkocy has now told the Sunday Telegraph that he and his KGB counterparts ran a cell of at least 15 senior Labour figures during the 80s. Thus far, he has named John McDonnell and Ken Livingstone, both of whom emphatically reject the allegations of espionage.

Corbyn does not deny meeting a Czech diplomat, apparently Sarkocy using the name of “Lt Jan Dymič”. The Islington North MP was listed as source COB by the Czech secret service, Státní Bezpečnost, and is reported to have played host to his alleged handler at least three times at the Commons and his constituency office.''

Oddly, Agent Cob's social media groups seem to have disappeared, along with his embarrassing quotes, and when old media photos and videos of him emerge with terrorists he says he wasn't actually taking part, only incited things, forgot to own up he was in the pay of Iran etc.
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Malcolm » Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:38 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:28 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:57 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:31 pm
neoliberalism...
...has in fact lifted a billion people on the planet out of chronic poverty. It just hasn't done good things for the American working class. But America First, right? In other words, what I mostly see here is people obsessing about American jobs and American politics, but there is a much wider context to consider here.
Obviously, it is deeply a question of opinion and spin to claim neoliberal economic doctrines "lifted a billion people out of poverty", and there are people all over the world who disagree, especially those who have faced the military enforcement end of it.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... me-poverty
At any rate, my criticism was leveled at it's effect on democracy specifically, not it's ability to create wealth...for someone or other. The underlying assumption is that somehow an improved economic situation (well, for some people anyway) justifies the hollowing out of the commons, and the deficit to democracy...
Neo-liberalism requires democracy. It does not function well in countries like Venezuela, which are anti-Democratic in the extreme. You may argue that China is anti-Democratic, but they are undergoing a liberal revolution. Fairly soon, the newly generated middle class in China is going to demand a political voice, just as in the 19th century, the newly generated middle class in Europe demanded a political voice.

I am not an isolationist, but i'm not in favor of multinational corporations subverting and reducing the power of democratically elected governments and getting to decide the direction of the world economy with little or no input from the people at he bottom who generate their wealth.
These why we need more democratic initiatives. Business cannot function in countries where trust is very low. The reason why businesses function well in the US, Canada, Western Europe and so on, is that laws are followed for the most part, and trust levels are very high. This is only possible in a true democratic system.

I find it really interesting that both the right and the left in this country are retreating into isolationism.
And I find it interesting how many liberals and progressives have discovered their deep and abiding love of the status quo since Trump was elected :D
The status quo was better for the world economy than this state of affairs. If things continue in this way for much longer, we are in for a hell of a world wide depression.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:40 pm

MiphamFan wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:22 pm
There is nothing wrong with protectionism to build up your country's industry, every single nation which successfully industralized did that while those who embraced the World Bank et al's policies of free trade remain stuck to this day...

...The crazy thing about US trade is that your tax dollars even subsidize small imports from China.
Yes.

The Free Trade approach takes the "Economic Man" as the basic building block, and so looks to remove any barriers that impede the theoretical free and rational activity of that particle. Its a load of BS because no economies actually work that openly and because of all the inefficiencies in something as big and complicated as the global economy. There is simply too much interference and manipulation from various players, particularly governments not playing by the Free Trade rules, let alone realities about the way things actually work, how human beings work, for this to be fair.

China especially does not play fair. Currency manipulation; condoned, sanctioned and facilitated IP theft; lack of labor standards... de jure and de facto trade barriers etc. etc. I hate to admit Trump does anything right, but his approach to China right now is more or less the necessary move. We'll see if he can follow through and take on that machine. Also, a more muscular presence in Asia in general is the right move, IMO, eagerly welcomed by allies in the region. I don't know if all this is planned and thought out by Trump as a comprehensive Asia strategy (doubtful), but it seems the US military is calling the shots on Asia military policy so there is some confidence there.
US industry has been eaten up by Asia. All the unemployed would have been factory workers in former times.

Today, with automation taking away even more manual jobs, I think it's honestly insane that anyone would support an open border policy. How many people, whether immigrants or locals, are going to be AI scientists and engineers?
I'm not concerned with particular industries. The labor intensive steel mills of Western Pennsylvania and Ohio, the labor intensive mines of Appalachia, the labor intensive automobile factories of Michigan, are not coming back. Automation, robotics, AI, is going to continue to eliminate the need for low skill labor. Reducing the need for labor will have a positive effect on bringing industry back to the US, only because transportation costs will become a factor (China sees this coming and envisions a rail line from Beijing to LA.) This will be a good thing in that sales revenue will stay in the US as long as the shareholders continue to reside in the US and keep the bulk of their money here. Putting up restraints on capital, especially when there are foreign actors willing to go to the lowest common denominator in finance rules will be a problem, but that is something the US could address through international cooperation - no developed economy want capitals drained out of their economy and so there is a lot of room to set up international rules that benefit all the participants.

What I would like to see is a reallocation of resources within the US - basically address inequality. By moderately raising barriers, particularly the flow of labor, I'd like to see the US direct resources, while we have them, to a broad based development of human capital and infrastructure, in preparation for the "flattening" that is coming. Notwithstanding some black swan that overturns everything and wipes out all the bets, the advantages of human capital the US currently has will be neutralized and then become a deficit if we continue to neglect our schools, health, infrastructure. We keep importing skilled labor, while we have a large population who is basically neglected and deprived of resources and opportunities. That's where I would like to see our resources directed for the foreseeable future. I'd like to see a rise in real wages, reallocation of value - assets are way over priced right now when measured against real, practical value.

If that means our material culture has to readjust to make sneakers just sneakers again, I'm fine with that. New shoes or more teachers? Hm. I know what my answer is.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Minobu » Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:53 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:48 pm
In the words of David Chapelle, we don't want Nikes that are made here, they would cost $3000.

I disagree. The cost of making a nike on US soil is higher but no where near as hi as people are led to believe.

Lots of stuff is made in the USA and quite affordable.

The shoes would be made better...last longer...

Doc Marten's were the best shoe i ever wore when made in England . Once produced in china i had to return them for they were actually made wrong and the edge of the sole inside was a hard plastic that dug into one's foot...

German shoes made in china are junk...

Doc's made in Viet nam are a little better...but the days of the English made doc martin...just a memory.

It's a con job to say they had to have this made over seas...profits ..yeah way higher...lower costs in manufacturing yes...but the fear that a nike would cost 3000.00 is ludicrous... So lets say a nike that is 100 bucks now...would be 125 bucks if made in America and the profit would be less..but all the profit would stay in america..and the workers working again would offset profit losses in the long run.

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Quay » Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:58 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:44 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:27 am
The idea that the system is rigged is just another comforting conspiracy theory which explains away one’s feeling of powerlessness.
Conspiracy theories are nice because even if one is powerless, at least someone is in charge.
The idea that the system is not what it generally seems to be, which one might see as rigged, does not mean there is a conspiracy. Since by definition a conspiracy is something done in secret our current system doesn't meet that meaning.

Everything that went on from 1980 until 2016 was announced in advance and is a matter of public record. In addition many people have written on how things actually work in Washington as opposed to what most people are (or were) taught in civics and history classes. It's all out in the open but few bother to find out about it because, in my view, Americans are actively discouraged from thinking about a central fact of human existence: class.

In the U.S., we have had a ruling class for a long time. They used to go to the same schools, came for the same set of families, and banded together at the level of interlocking business interests. They would still be firmly in control of things except for those events and actions that make political science a fascinating study: the unexpected. Things like assassinations and Lyndon Johnson ramming voter and civil rights through congress. Or the creation and world-changing happening of the internet. (Though even the latter was long predicted in science fiction.)

Today the U.S. is finally developing an actual alternative to our status quo in the new half of the Democratic Party members who want to essentially implement FDR's postwar plan for the country as opposed to the other half of the Democratic Party and most of the Republican Party who want to continue the national security state and stratification of society we got under Harry Truman.

It's the same fight that has been going on since the 1930s when Republicans accused FDR of "betraying his class" by implementing policies and programs that benefitted everyone instead of a few, by taxing the rich to help the poor.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:04 pm

The game plan is there. Its laid out.

Image
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:11 pm

My comments above I think are too dry, focused just on money. Quay referenced the New Deal... one of the great things about the New Deal, IMO, was how the arts were an important part of it. Here in NYC, there are a lot of buildings with WPA art, but also Art Deco in general. Its really uplifting art. I'd like to see that optimism about human potential celebrated again.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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