Crackdown on religion in China

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tatpurusa
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Re: Crackdown on religion in China

Post by tatpurusa » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:03 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:48 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:13 pm


Conspiracy theory much?
For millions of Iraquis, Libians, Syrians, Afghanis and Yemenis it would be absolutely marvellous if it was a mere theory.

tp
Blunders in foreign policy are not conspiracies. In any case, the CIA warned the Bush Admin NOT to invade Iraq. You do the math.
Yeah. It has been you who used the word conspiracy, not me. (Probably in order to cheaply discredit what I wrote)
I talked about geopolitics, not conspiracy. A continuation of geopolitics of the British empire for that matter - but of course by other players.

tp

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Malcolm
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Re: Crackdown on religion in China

Post by Malcolm » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:18 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:08 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:03 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:48 pm


For millions of Iraquis, Libians, Syrians, Afghanis and Yemenis it would be absolutely marvellous if it was a mere theory.

tp
Blunders in foreign policy are not conspiracies. In any case, the CIA warned the Bush Admin NOT to invade Iraq. You do the math.
Yeah. It has been you who used the word conspiray, not me.
I talked about geopolitics, not conspiracy. A continuation of geopolitics of the British empire for that matter - but of course by other players.

tp
You said:
They might if CIA, Israel and the other Al-Qaeda/ISIL/Daesh puppet masters decide
The OED says a puppet master is "a person, group, or country that covertly controls another: the puppetmaster behind the current administration"

Hence, your word, implying your belief there is an active conspiracy, one being run by the CIA and others who are in control of international terrorist organizations [Israel? seriously, come on].

I suppose you think 9/11 was an inside job too.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

tatpurusa
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Crackdown on religion in China

Post by tatpurusa » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:22 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:18 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:08 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:03 pm


Blunders in foreign policy are not conspiracies. In any case, the CIA warned the Bush Admin NOT to invade Iraq. You do the math.
Yeah. It has been you who used the word conspiray, not me.
I talked about geopolitics, not conspiracy. A continuation of geopolitics of the British empire for that matter - but of course by other players.

tp
You said:
They might if CIA, Israel and the other Al-Qaeda/ISIL/Daesh puppet masters decide
The OED says a puppet master is "a person, group, or country that covertly controls another: the puppetmaster behind the current administration"

Hence, your word, implying your belief there is an active conspiracy, one being run by the CIA and others who are in fact control of international terrorist organizations [Israel? seriously, come on].
Do you seriously think geopolitical players do not make use of covert operations? Covert operations have been a firm and standard part of geopolitics ever since it exists.
I cannot sincerely believe you could be possibly naive enough not to know this.
So you are saying geopolitical players all the time publicly reveal the instruments they are using? :? :? :?
Have you ever heard of "plausible deniability" (a term invented by American politicians. The concept of course is much older)

tp

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Malcolm
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Re: Crackdown on religion in China

Post by Malcolm » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:42 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:22 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:18 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:08 pm


Yeah. It has been you who used the word conspiray, not me.
I talked about geopolitics, not conspiracy. A continuation of geopolitics of the British empire for that matter - but of course by other players.

tp
You said:
They might if CIA, Israel and the other Al-Qaeda/ISIL/Daesh puppet masters decide
The OED says a puppet master is "a person, group, or country that covertly controls another: the puppetmaster behind the current administration"

Hence, your word, implying your belief there is an active conspiracy, one being run by the CIA and others who are in fact control of international terrorist organizations [Israel? seriously, come on].
Do you seriously think geopolitical players do not make use of covert operations? Covert operations have been a firm and standard part of geopolitics ever since it exists.
Covert operations exist. The CIA and Israel being in control of ISIS, etc., is the fantasy of a febrile imagination.

I cannot sincerely believe you could be possibly naive enough not to know this.
So you are saying geopolitical players all the time publicly reveal the instruments they are using? :? :? :?
Have you ever heard of "plausible deniability" (a term invented by American politicians. The concept of course is much older)
So here, you have basically agreed that you think that ISIS, etc., are covert operations being run by the CIA and Israel, is that what we are supposed to understand from your posts?

As I said, conspiracy theory much?

Anyway, :offtopic:
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

tatpurusa
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Crackdown on religion in China

Post by tatpurusa » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:49 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:42 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:22 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:18 pm


You said:



The OED says a puppet master is "a person, group, or country that covertly controls another: the puppetmaster behind the current administration"

Hence, your word, implying your belief there is an active conspiracy, one being run by the CIA and others who are in fact control of international terrorist organizations [Israel? seriously, come on].
Do you seriously think geopolitical players do not make use of covert operations? Covert operations have been a firm and standard part of geopolitics ever since it exists.
Covert operations exist. The CIA and Israel being in control of ISIS, etc., is the fantasy of a febrile imagination.

I cannot sincerely believe you could be possibly naive enough not to know this.
So you are saying geopolitical players all the time publicly reveal the instruments they are using? :? :? :?
Have you ever heard of "plausible deniability" (a term invented by American politicians. The concept of course is much older)
So here, you have basically agreed that you think that ISIS, etc., are covert operations being run by the CIA and Israel, is that what we are supposed to understand from your posts?

As I said, conspiracy theory much?

Anyway, :offtopic:
Calling opponents a "conspiracy theorist" is a standard instrument of "plausible deniability".
In our case this is your way of trying to cheaply discredit what I write.
Educate yourself a bit (but it seems this is not what you really want)

tp

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Malcolm
Posts: 28709
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Crackdown on religion in China

Post by Malcolm » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:52 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:49 pm


Calling opponents a "conspiracy theorist" is a standard instrument of "plausible deniability".
In our case this is your way of trying to cheaply discredit what I write.
Educate yourself a bit (but it seems this is not what you really want)

tp
I see, so you really do believe the CIA and Israel are running ISIS. etc, since you won't deny it.

Well, good luck with that conspiracy theory.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

tatpurusa
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Crackdown on religion in China

Post by tatpurusa » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:58 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:52 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:49 pm


Calling opponents a "conspiracy theorist" is a standard instrument of "plausible deniability".
In our case this is your way of trying to cheaply discredit what I write.
Educate yourself a bit (but it seems this is not what you really want)

tp
I see, so you really do believe the CIA and Israel are running ISIS. etc, since you won't deny it.

Well, good luck with that conspiracy theory.
What do you know about the origins of Afghan anti-soviet jihadists, Al-Qaeda, Al-Nusra and DAESH?
What is the relation/connection between them?
Where do their organization, arms and logistics come from? This is no conspiracy ... most of them are well known facts.
As I adviced you, just educate yourself...

tp

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Malcolm
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Re: Crackdown on religion in China

Post by Malcolm » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:13 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:58 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:52 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:49 pm


Calling opponents a "conspiracy theorist" is a standard instrument of "plausible deniability".
In our case this is your way of trying to cheaply discredit what I write.
Educate yourself a bit (but it seems this is not what you really want)

tp
I see, so you really do believe the CIA and Israel are running ISIS. etc, since you won't deny it.

Well, good luck with that conspiracy theory.
What do you know about the origins of Afghan anti-soviet jihadists, Al-Qaeda, Al-Nusra and DAESH?
What do you know about them?

You are the one claiming the CIA and Israel are running the whole show. But you have not shown one drop of evidence that this is the case.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

tatpurusa
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Crackdown on religion in China

Post by tatpurusa » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:18 pm

I suppose you think 9/11 was an inside job too.
Haha .. I have not said anything about this. Anyway, just go on supposing what you want.
I for that matter suppose you believe that it was Putin personally who manipulated the US presidential elections.
Good luck with that conspiracy theory..

tp

tatpurusa
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Crackdown on religion in China

Post by tatpurusa » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:13 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:58 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:52 pm


I see, so you really do believe the CIA and Israel are running ISIS. etc, since you won't deny it.

Well, good luck with that conspiracy theory.
What do you know about the origins of Afghan anti-soviet jihadists, Al-Qaeda, Al-Nusra and DAESH?
What do you know about them?

You are the one claiming the CIA and Israel are running the whole show. But you have not shown one drop of evidence that this is the case.
Of course, and I will not, because I am not here to convince anyone about anything ...
Besides, this would really be off topic.
You can find the relevant information if you really are interested in it, a lot of it has been widely available since the 1980s .. at least in European newspapers.
I myself read interviews with American politicians during the 80s (Soviet Afghan occupation) describing how the best way of countering Soviets and communism in Afghanistan was using Islam. This was the beginning of jihadism. I really doubt you did not know it.

Anyway: I was born, grew up and lived for more than 20 years in a communist country, being an unbeliever of communist state propaganda.
The same way I continue to be an unbeliever of US state propaganda.

tp
Last edited by tatpurusa on Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Wayfarer
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Re: Crackdown on religion in China

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:34 pm

The original point of this thread was to publicise the terrible plight of persecuted minorities in the PRC. The arguments about ‘who is behind it all’ are unprovable. Let’s stick to the topic
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

Crazywisdom
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Re: Crackdown on religion in China

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:51 am

I can’t rule any of you out as suspected puppet masters.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

WeiHan
Posts: 538
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Re: Crackdown on religion in China

Post by WeiHan » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:56 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:34 pm
A feature article on Chinese 're-education camps', in today's Sydney Morning Herald. (Apologies if it's geo-blocked but I don't think SMH articles usually are.)
China is currently in the process of deleveraging and reforming its economy in preparation for the next phase of higher quality growth. There is already inherent destabilising risk with this current reformation. I don't think any other factors especially those from religions which the "communists" genuinely do not believe in will tolerate.

Personally, I am not in favor of some islamic practices such as covering up faces of women in public places, so other harsh measures aside, i am rather amuse by Chinese authorities efficiency it ruling this practice out.

WeiHan
Posts: 538
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Re: Crackdown on religion in China

Post by WeiHan » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:20 pm

I don't know about you all but I am sincerely more worried about the spread of certain strand of christianity in asia than autocratic chinese gov. The party may still be called "communist" but it is the most business minded ever. I certainly welcome their focus on economic growth to lift as many people out of poverty with the focus in technology in the next phase of economic growth. As for religions, I never understand them and most are very keen in imposing what they believe onto others anyway. Here in singapore, LGBT are again in with another effort to repeal the archaic laws that criminalise gay sex. Without fail, once again, the fiercest opposition come from 1.catholic 2. protestant 3. Islam. And it seems that they can never understand that sin is different from crime.

WeiHan
Posts: 538
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:50 pm

Re: Crackdown on religion in China

Post by WeiHan » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:04 pm

The suspicion of the Chinese gov on these churches is actually quite well founded if you look at this
https://www.theguardian.com/global-deve ... referendum

Even just as minority group with less than 5% followers, they will seek all means to force their values on others through politics. Is an irony that they can call for religious freedom in one part of the world but seek to take away rights from others in another place, forgetting all that they have enjoyed with the constitutions of a democratic society. So, no sympathy from me....

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Malcolm
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Re: Crackdown on religion in China

Post by Malcolm » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:20 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:56 am
Wayfarer wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:34 pm
A feature article on Chinese 're-education camps', in today's Sydney Morning Herald. (Apologies if it's geo-blocked but I don't think SMH articles usually are.)
China is currently in the process of deleveraging and reforming its economy in preparation for the next phase of higher quality growth. There is already inherent destabilising risk with this current reformation. I don't think any other factors especially those from religions which the "communists" genuinely do not believe in will tolerate.

Personally, I am not in favor of some islamic practices such as covering up faces of women in public places, so other harsh measures aside, i am rather amuse by Chinese authorities efficiency it ruling this practice out.
The wearing of veils is a cultural practices which predate Islam, and was quite wide spread in all Western and Middle Eastern countries. In ancient Mesopotamian society, veils were not permitted to slaves and prostitutes. These two Wiki articles have interesting information about the practice of veiling faces and who was permitted to do so. In other words, veils indicated the high status of the women who wore them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab#Pre ... _practices

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

tingdzin
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Re: Crackdown on religion in China

Post by tingdzin » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:53 am

WeiHan wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:20 pm
I don't know about you all but I am sincerely more worried about the spread of certain strand of christianity in asia than autocratic chinese gov.
This may be because you are not Tibetan, Uighur, Mongol, Thai, Burmese, Vietnamese, Japanese, etc., or for that matter a Han Chinese who is interested in non-authoritarian Chinese traditions.

Those who first thought that if Communist China got into the world market it would become a good citizen were clearly more motivated by greed than intelligence.

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Crackdown on religion in China

Post by Kim O'Hara » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:31 pm

SumOfUs Petition: https://actions.sumofus.org/a/google-ca ... agonfly-1/
Right now at least a million people are being detained in mass internment camps by the Chinese authorities simply because they’re Muslim.

And yet, Google is currently developing a censored search engine for China.

Google is helping the Chinese government whitewash its brutal human rights record -- and even Google’s own employees are fighting back.

The new app -- dubbed ‘Dragonfly’ -- could be launched in as little as 6 months, but with your help we can show Google it’s unacceptable to profit from the Chinese government’s brutal human right abuses.

Dragonfly will block internet users in China from searching for information about the exiled Tibetan leader, the Dalai Lama, and human rights abuses committed by their own government.
:namaste:
Kim

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