Pittsburgh massacre

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Grigoris
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Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Grigoris » Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:39 pm

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46007707
What do we know about the gunman?
US media said he had shouted "All Jews must die" as he carried out the attack.

Social media posts by someone with the name Robert Bowers were also reported to be full of anti-Semitic comments.
Do people still want to insist that Facists and Antifa are the same, and that Fascism can be countered by peaceful resistance?
FBI special agent Bob Jones told a press conference that Mr Bowers did not appear to be known to authorities prior to the attack.
Of course not, they were too busy tracking "Black Lives Matter" activists and leftists...

Sigh...

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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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clyde
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by clyde » Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:52 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:39 pm
Do people still want to insist . . . that Fascism can be countered by peaceful resistance?
The Buddha is reported to have said, “Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law.”
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Knotty Veneer » Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:11 pm

Indeed, when was the last time you saw socialists running around crazy with guns.

No doubt, Fox News will be claiming this is false flag attack by Democrats to influence the election.

Just hope it finally convinces my Trump voting Jewish in-laws that they need to rethink their choices.
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Grigoris » Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:19 pm

And just in case you were still wondering about who exactly the trrorists are in Amerika:

Muslims crowdfund for victims of Pittsburgh synagogue attack
The Muslim-American community has raised tens of thousands of dollars in a crowdfunding effort to help the victims of the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting that left at least 11 people dead and six wounded.

The campaign, which is hosted by Muslim crowdfunding site LaunchGood, aims to help shooting victims, "whether it is the injured victims or the Jewish families who have lost loved ones".

...

According to an update the campaign's page, its original goal of $25,000 was raised in "only" six hours. The goal has now been extended to $50,000, with nine days left. At the time of publication on Sunday, the sum had exceeded $43,000.

...

The GoFundMe campaign has raised over $247,000, well over its original goal of $100,000. It has has extended its goal to $1m.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Grigoris » Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:23 pm

clyde wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:52 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:39 pm
Do people still want to insist . . . that Fascism can be countered by peaceful resistance?
The Buddha is reported to have said, “Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law.”
Source?

And what makes you believe that self-defence is motivated by hatred?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:00 pm

It's funny because as much as detest their overall argument, the general right-wing claim that "good guys with guns" can help things is IMO a little less far off the mark than many liberals think. More like "if you're a targeted minority it might be good to learn to defend yourself from these very people", as someone with a Jewish wife and children, I would much rather something like this meets resistance next time. This guy wasn't even willing to die, the only reason he contemplated this (IMO) is that he knew no one would fight back.

I'm not suggesting everyone arm themselves, I don't want to live in that society either. Just saying, in this time of political violence, it might be good to do more organization than the occasional "active shooter" class for people who might be targeted. Unfortunately, i'm sure few will want to, as the very notion of self-defense is bizarrely frowned on in the mainstream liberal culture of the US today, with many basically viewing the very notion of self-defense as 'right wing" or "violent".
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by clyde » Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:07 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:23 pm
clyde wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:52 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:39 pm
Do people still want to insist . . . that Fascism can be countered by peaceful resistance?
The Buddha is reported to have said, “Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law.”
Source?

And what makes you believe that self-defence is motivated by hatred?
The source is the Dhammapada, verse 5. See: https://fakebuddhaquotes.com/hatred-doe ... rable-law/

I have no issue with self-defense. But it seemed to me that your question implied more than self-defense when confronted by imminent violence.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Mantrik » Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:26 pm

The dotard madman in charge thinks arming teachers and rabbis is the answer........even though 3 trained armed cops were shot.

With each mass shooting he becomes more rabid and monosyllabic. And now he's added the death penalty as a panacea. Hmmm.........wonder if he's electioneering.

Being a Trump supporter is not a prerequisite to becoming a mass murderer..........sharing his views on killing and weapons is clearly a start, though.
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Grigoris » Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:57 pm

clyde wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:07 pm
I have no issue with self-defense. But it seemed to me that your question implied more than self-defense when confronted by imminent violence.
What do you believe it implied? You might be correct in your assumption. ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Malcolm » Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:03 pm

clyde wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:52 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:39 pm
Do people still want to insist . . . that Fascism can be countered by peaceful resistance?
The Buddha is reported to have said, “Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law.”
Karl Popper wrote:
Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.
John Rawls:
While an intolerant sect does not itself have title to complain of intolerance, its freedom should be restricted only when the tolerant sincerely and with reason believe that their own security and that of the institutions of liberty are in danger.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:03 pm
clyde wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:52 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:39 pm
Do people still want to insist . . . that Fascism can be countered by peaceful resistance?
The Buddha is reported to have said, “Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law.”
Karl Popper wrote:
Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.
John Rawls:
While an intolerant sect does not itself have title to complain of intolerance, its freedom should be restricted only when the tolerant sincerely and with reason believe that their own security and that of the institutions of liberty are in danger.
There’s an agenda. These guys want civil war. Not just: also world war. They want to establish a Christian theocracy. It can be established and it is seditious. The drug conspiracies and the mafia cases have gotten life sentences based on pretty flimsy circumstantial evidence, quite often. They were able to create a consciousness among jury pools that these guy are the bad guys. They can do that here, too. Guys spew hatred of groups and be deemed insurrectionist. The problem is there’s a huge population that sympathizes with these killers. This is a deep corruption in American society. This is only going to escalate.

I myself have had to defend myself against these folks, even very recently. My approach has always been to snap back like Doberman. They don’t know what to do with a really courageous and decisive self-defense. They’re used to people cowering. They hit you in the face, you choke them into submission. Make them tap out.

To make them tap out here: this type of speech could be treated as aiding a terrorist group and prosecuted as such.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Malcolm » Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:28 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:12 pm


To make them tap out here: this type of speech could be treated as aiding a terrorist group and prosecuted as such.
That kind of speech should be legislated as illegal.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Queequeg » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:00 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:00 pm
More like "if you're a targeted minority it might be good to learn to defend yourself from these very people", as someone with a Jewish wife and children, I would much rather something like this meets resistance next time.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:04 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:28 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:12 pm


To make them tap out here: this type of speech could be treated as aiding a terrorist group and prosecuted as such.
That kind of speech should be legislated as illegal.
Absolutely.

Honestly, it already is. Speech designed to incite violence is not protected.

His speech to the effect of “except for the infestation of kikes...” likens Jews to vermin that must be exterminated, which implies the need to kill. That alone should justify at least a civil 5150 commitment for psych evaluation. However, that it doesn’t is very telling about American culture. Threats are a crime.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by KeithA » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:26 pm

clyde wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:52 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:39 pm
Do people still want to insist . . . that Fascism can be countered by peaceful resistance?
The Buddha is reported to have said, “Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law.”
Thanks Clyde. :heart:

This thread is nothing but an excuse to broad stroke America as "Amerika".

yawn...

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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Fa Dao » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:43 pm

:twothumbsup:
KeithA wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:26 pm
clyde wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:52 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:39 pm
Do people still want to insist . . . that Fascism can be countered by peaceful resistance?
The Buddha is reported to have said, “Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law.”
Thanks Clyde. :heart:

This thread is nothing but an excuse to broad stroke America as "Amerika".

yawn...
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:46 pm

KeithA wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:26 pm
clyde wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:52 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:39 pm
Do people still want to insist . . . that Fascism can be countered by peaceful resistance?
The Buddha is reported to have said, “Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law.”
Thanks Clyde. :heart:

This thread is nothing but an excuse to broad stroke America as "Amerika".

yawn...
This just seems like a "nice" way to dismissively invalidate the opinions of people you disagree with, instead of addressing them. Yawn indeed.
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by clyde » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:37 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:57 pm
clyde wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:07 pm
I have no issue with self-defense. But it seemed to me that your question implied more than self-defense when confronted by imminent violence.
What do you believe it implied? You might be correct in your assumption. ;)
And I may be mistaken, but your question seemed to imply taking forceful action against fascists, not merely for self-defense.

I prefer the route promoted by Martin Luther King Jr. of courageous non-violence, “Nonviolence is a powerful and just weapon. which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it. It is a sword that heals.”
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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clyde
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by clyde » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:46 pm

Regarding the quotes by Karl Popper and John Rawls, I agree and, as has been noted, hate speech which incites violence is already illegal. That said, let’s not return hatred and violence with more hatred and violence.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:55 pm

clyde wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:37 pm
“Nonviolence is a powerful and just weapon. which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it. It is a sword that heals.”
I'd suggest that your idealism has as much to do with your position of not being under the same threat as other groups as it does your own ideals. I imagine all of us would agree that preemptive violence is out of the question, and that MLK-type ideals are certainly the ones to stand up for.

That said, neither you or I are being specifically targeted (you know, like Jews were here, like they have been historically) ), and personally I find it amazing that anyone would try to lecture on the virtues of nonviolence a day after some Nazi walked in and massacred 11 people in a synagogue, specifically due to their ethnicity/religion -and- their desire to help refugees. What are you worried about exactly?
clyde wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:46 pm
Regarding the quotes by Karl Popper and John Rawls, I agree and, as has been noted, hate speech which incites violence is already illegal. That said, let’s not return hatred and violence with more hatred and violence.
Did someone advocate that here? Can you point out where?
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