Pittsburgh massacre

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kirtu
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by kirtu » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:18 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:39 pm
FBI special agent Bob Jones told a press conference that Mr Bowers did not appear to be known to authorities prior to the attack.
Of course not, they were to busy tracking "Black Lives Matter" activists and leftists...
Unfortunately this is literally true. During the late 80's the FBI "infiltrated" ACT-UP in several cities fearing some kind of potentially violent activity. They later denied that they did this. Then they admitted it and swore that they would never do it again. Then in the 90's they "infiltrated" other LGBTQ groups. Denied it again. Then admitted it later, again.

This man was openly spewing hatred on a social media group apparently specifically set up so that people could spew hatred (or it was in effect taken over for that purpose). It would have been easy to keep tabs on this guy and all the others advocating hatred and violence in social media groups.

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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by kirtu » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:28 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:00 pm
It's funny because as much as detest their overall argument, the general right-wing claim that "good guys with guns" can help things is IMO a little less far off the mark than many liberals think. More like "if you're a targeted minority it might be good to learn to defend yourself from these very people", as someone with a Jewish wife and children, I would much rather something like this meets resistance next time. This guy wasn't even willing to die, the only reason he contemplated this (IMO) is that he knew no one would fight back.
Really? Did he say that? Looks like the JDL will be reborn after this.
Unfortunately, i'm sure few will want to, as the very notion of self-defense is bizarrely frowned on in the mainstream liberal culture of the US today, with many basically viewing the very notion of self-defense as 'right wing" or "violent".
Well, some of us have been in the military .... and don't view last resort self-defense as untenable .... just unfortunate.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:29 am

kirtu wrote:Unfortunately this is literally true. During the late 80's the FBI "infiltrated" ACT-UP in several cities fearing some kind of potentially violent activity. They later denied that they did this. Then they admitted it and swore that they would never do it again. Then in the 90's they "infiltrated" other LGBTQ groups. Denied it again. Then admitted it later, again.

This man was openly spewing hatred on a social media group apparently specifically set up so that people could spew hatred (or it was in effect taken over for that purpose). It would have been easy to keep tabs on this guy and all the others advocating hatred and violence in social media groups.

Just look at the difference in police presence to the BLM protests and Charlottesville. Don't see anyone wanting to ride tanks through predominantly white neighborhoods.
kirtu wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:28 am


Well, some of us have been in the military .... and don't view last resort self-defense as untenable .... just unfortunate.

Kirt
I agree there, I earnestly hope, in fact direct my prayers towards there being less violence in America, rather than more.
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by clyde » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:01 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:55 pm
clyde wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:37 pm
“Nonviolence is a powerful and just weapon. which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it. It is a sword that heals.”
I'd suggest that your idealism has as much to do with your position of not being under the same threat as other groups as it does your own ideals. I imagine all of us would agree that preemptive violence is out of the question, and that MLK-type ideals are certainly the ones to stand up for.

That said, neither you or I are being specifically targeted (you know, like Jews were here, like they have been historically) ), and personally I find it amazing that anyone would try to lecture on the virtues of nonviolence a day after some Nazi walked in and massacred 11 people in a synagogue, specifically due to their ethnicity/religion -and- their desire to help refugees. What are you worried about exactly?
clyde wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:46 pm
Regarding the quotes by Karl Popper and John Rawls, I agree and, as has been noted, hate speech which incites violence is already illegal. That said, let’s not return hatred and violence with more hatred and violence.
Did someone advocate that here? Can you point out where?
I am a Jew. Except for family which immigrated to America pre-WWII, my father’s side of the family was lost in the Holocaust and my mother’s side of the family was lost in Stalin’s Russia. I was beat-up as a child because I am a Jew (“Christ-killer”) and have experienced a few other minor incidents.

I didn’t think my posts were “lecturing”. This is a Buddhist forum, so I thought quoting the teachings of the Buddha was appropriate and quoting Martin Luther King Jr about non-violence seemed appropriate for Americans.

And here is the Jewish teaching, “All that is written in the Torah was written for the sake of peace.”
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by justsit » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:29 am

So, what, now 80 and 90+ year-olds need to concealed carry? How fast can they draw? What kind of aim do ya think they'll have?
Will Social Security pay for time at the gun range? :guns:

Jeebus. The world's going nuts. :toilet:

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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:30 am

clyde wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:01 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:55 pm
clyde wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:37 pm
“Nonviolence is a powerful and just weapon. which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it. It is a sword that heals.”
I'd suggest that your idealism has as much to do with your position of not being under the same threat as other groups as it does your own ideals. I imagine all of us would agree that preemptive violence is out of the question, and that MLK-type ideals are certainly the ones to stand up for.

That said, neither you or I are being specifically targeted (you know, like Jews were here, like they have been historically) ), and personally I find it amazing that anyone would try to lecture on the virtues of nonviolence a day after some Nazi walked in and massacred 11 people in a synagogue, specifically due to their ethnicity/religion -and- their desire to help refugees. What are you worried about exactly?
clyde wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:46 pm
Regarding the quotes by Karl Popper and John Rawls, I agree and, as has been noted, hate speech which incites violence is already illegal. That said, let’s not return hatred and violence with more hatred and violence.
Did someone advocate that here? Can you point out where?
I am a Jew. Except for family which immigrated to America pre-WWII, my father’s side of the family was lost in the Holocaust and my mother’s side of the family was lost in Stalin’s Russia. I was beat-up as a child because I am a Jew (“Christ-killer”) and have experienced a few other minor incidents.

I didn’t think my posts were “lecturing”. This is a Buddhist forum, so I thought quoting the teachings of the Buddha was appropriate and quoting Martin Luther King Jr about non-violence seemed appropriate for Americans.

And here is the Jewish teaching, “All that is written in the Torah was written for the sake of peace.”
Perhaps the intent is not lecturing, but when you are seemingly arguing against threats of violence which no one made, I wonder what you are actually objecting to.

On the Jewish bit, I would think you would understand doubly the difficulties of "practicing peace" while people are trying to kill you, at least in terms of family history, not necessarily personal experience. Obviously not all Jews think the same thing on this issue, so lets pretend they do.

As to the quotes, sure, they are great. I doubt anyone here would think otherwise. Nonetheless, we have right wingers arming themselves and walking into synagogues massacring people, are you worried about Jews, Left wingers etc. engaging in preemptive violence? if not, then what are you concerned with here? Can you answer my question this time: What did you find concerning in the thread earlier?

justsit wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:29 am
So, what, now 80 and 90+ year-olds need to concealed carry? How fast can they draw? What kind of aim do ya think they'll have?
Will Social Security pay for time at the gun range? :guns:

Jeebus. The world's going nuts. :toilet:

Not sure who you are talking to but...
We could pass a bill banning AR 15's tomorrow and the communities who are under threat would still be so in the present climate, that is just reality. that's not to say the banning of AR 15s wouldn't have some kind of effect, but open, anti-semitic etc. terror has to do (quite obviously) with political circumstances beyond weaponry, even though certainly that is part of the conversation.

And no, personally I would hate to live in that world, I am just saying that it's worth taking self-defense measures seriously (which don't involve everyone being armed), not sure why that'd be controversial.
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:03 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:39 pm

Do people still want to insist that Facists and Antifa are the same, and that Fascism can be countered by peaceful resistance?
I don't really understand the point of this question. The individual in question seems yet another delusional, possibly psychotic, individual, with access to weapons and driven by hatred. The 'mass murder meme' is well entrenched in the behavioural repertoires available to such persons, as they happen with appalling regularity in America, and rather less frequently in other parts of the world. But even now the next such perpetrator is probably readying his - it's nearly always 'his' - weapons, and considering likely venues and targets.

I noted the Mayor of Pittsburgh says that the only way to prevent such tragedies is to remove weapons from the hate-driven individuals who are likely to perpetrate them - which seems an impossible task, given the American electorate's attitude to gun ownership (although I do think he's obviously correct). But given all of that, I can't see how categorising such an event in terms of 'fascism' casts any light. :shrug:
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:09 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:03 am


I noted the Mayor of Pittsburgh says that the only way to prevent such tragedies is to remove weapons from the hate-driven individuals who are likely to perpetrate them - which seems an impossible task, given the American electorate's attitude to gun ownership (although I do think he's obviously correct). But given all of that, I can't see how categorising such an event in terms of 'fascism' casts any light. :shrug:
Because the individual in question was specifically targeting Jews who were providing aid for refugees, and his entire MO for the crime itself was openly based on far-right political rhetoric.. Not sure how you could avoid casting the event in political terms, even if there are certainly other factors involved.
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:15 am

I think by describing it in political terms, you're furthering the damage to the body politic that is so obviously being done by the current POTUS. What is gained by doing that? It is better to view it as psycho-pathological, which adopts various political guises as part of its pathology, and as yet another appalling consequence of America's pathological obsession with guns.
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:23 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:15 am
I think by describing it in political terms, you're furthering the damage to the body politic that is so obviously being done by the current POTUS. What is gained by doing that? It is better to view it as psycho-pathological, which adopts various political guises as part of its pathology, and as yet another appalling consequence of America's pathological obsession with guns.
I don't think so, not with the history of anti-antisemitism, and it's recent morphing/resurgence in on line communities like the one that the shooter frequented. IMO one would be doing the tragedy and those affected a big disservice by not acknowledging it.
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by clyde » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:35 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:30 am
Perhaps the intent is not lecturing, but when you are seemingly arguing against threats of violence which no one made, I wonder what you are actually objecting to.

On the Jewish bit, I would think you would understand doubly the difficulties of "practicing peace" while people are trying to kill you, at least in terms of family history, not necessarily personal experience. Obviously not all Jews think the same thing on this issue, so lets pretend they do.
As I noted in a reply to Grigoris, I understood his question “Do people still want to insist . . . that Fascism can be countered by peaceful resistance?” “to imply taking forceful action against fascists, not merely for self-defense.” And that’s why I posted. I also made clear, I support self-defense.

Yes, “practicing peace” is difficult, but not more so than Buddhism.
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:58 am

clyde wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:35 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:30 am
Perhaps the intent is not lecturing, but when you are seemingly arguing against threats of violence which no one made, I wonder what you are actually objecting to.

On the Jewish bit, I would think you would understand doubly the difficulties of "practicing peace" while people are trying to kill you, at least in terms of family history, not necessarily personal experience. Obviously not all Jews think the same thing on this issue, so lets pretend they do.
As I noted in a reply to Grigoris, I understood his question “Do people still want to insist . . . that Fascism can be countered by peaceful resistance?” “to imply taking forceful action against fascists, not merely for self-defense.” And that’s why I posted. I also made clear, I support self-defense.

Yes, “practicing peace” is difficult, but not more so than Buddhism.
This is where it gets tough though, Fascism relies (at least historically) on a presence in the streets, as a form of intimidation. Almost by definition, marching against them - as one example- (as we saw in Charlottesville) can put you in their cross hairs, as can being Jewish, Black, Gay, whatever. When this is the case, it is hard to know how exactly to proceed peacefully. For sure, in my opinion someone must face these people and route their ascent, including in the streets. I sincerely hope violence can be avoided, but historically that doesn't always seem to be the case, because fascists will actually attack their enemies, and do not respect the social contract, or some idea of peaceful dispute resolution. I took Grigoris' post to be addressing just this, not advocating anything preemptive.
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by PeterC » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:15 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:15 am
I think by describing it in political terms, you're furthering the damage to the body politic that is so obviously being done by the current POTUS. What is gained by doing that? It is better to view it as psycho-pathological, which adopts various political guises as part of its pathology, and as yet another appalling consequence of America's pathological obsession with guns.
But it clearly had political character. The statements and actions of certain politicians, including the current POTUS, may not have made this guy a disturbed and dangerous but they clearly played a role in pointing him towards certain targets, legitimizing violence, and encouraging him to take action. To frame this as psycho-pathological - which is what the political right will always do, they characterize all these disaffected racist white shooters are mentally unhinged lone wolves - is disingenuous. It pretends that it's an individual rather than a systemic problem.

The body politic is lying in intensive care with advanced metastatic cancer. There isn't a solution that somehow preserves it whole and healthy while avoiding a serious round of chemo.

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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by shaunc » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:51 am

The problem isn't the right wing of politics or the left wing of politics. The problem is extremism, and both sides have their share.
Fortunately I live in a country where not too many people take politics seriously, as a matter of fact sports takes up more room in the newspapers than politics does.

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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:17 am

PeterC wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:15 am
Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:15 am
I think by describing it in political terms, you're furthering the damage to the body politic that is so obviously being done by the current POTUS. What is gained by doing that? It is better to view it as psycho-pathological, which adopts various political guises as part of its pathology, and as yet another appalling consequence of America's pathological obsession with guns.
But it clearly had political character. The statements and actions of certain politicians, including the current POTUS, may not have made this guy a disturbed and dangerous but they clearly played a role in pointing him towards certain targets, legitimizing violence, and encouraging him to take action. To frame this as psycho-pathological - which is what the political right will always do, they characterize all these disaffected racist white shooters are mentally unhinged lone wolves - is disingenuous. It pretends that it's an individual rather than a systemic problem.

The body politic is lying in intensive care with advanced metastatic cancer. There isn't a solution that somehow preserves it whole and healthy while avoiding a serious round of chemo.

Well said, some tough times ahead.
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by PeterC » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:22 am

shaunc wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:51 am
The problem isn't the right wing of politics or the left wing of politics. The problem is extremism, and both sides have their share.
Fortunately I live in a country where not too many people take politics seriously, as a matter of fact sports takes up more room in the newspapers than politics does.
Not really. Where are the Jewish and black shooters attacking Christian churches? The gay gunmen attacking straight nightclubs? The socialists mailing bombs to Rush Limbaugh and Mitch McConnell? The best evidence the political right can produce is organizations like antifa which turn up almost exclusively in counter-protests to armed right-wing protests. There isn't a moral equivalence here.

That said I would agree that sports taking up more column inches than politics is a good sign of a healthy society.

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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:32 am

PeterC wrote:it clearly had political character.
Well, I see your point, but I don’t see how saying that ‘it’s the Right’ actually does anything other than fan the flames. It’s criminal behaviour which I completely agree is being excacerbated by the hateful rhetoric of POTUS. But I would like to think that neither these acts, nor Trump’s hateful rhetoric, are actually representative of Republicanism per se. So I think depicting these acts as criminal, rather than as political statements, is more accurate.
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Grigoris » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:33 am

clyde wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:37 pm
And I may be mistaken, but your question seemed to imply taking forceful action against fascists, not merely for self-defense.
So if we know that there is a Fascist (Mr Bowers, for example) preparing an armed attack, they should not be neutralised? That would not be self-defence?

We should wait until they begin their attack before taking action? Or maybe they should be allowed to carry out their attack and then we should respond, using it as an opportunity to practice mourning lost innocent lives?

No.
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:34 am

Remember The Magus. And Sophie’s Choice.
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Grigoris » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:43 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:03 am
I don't really understand the point of this question. The individual in question seems yet another delusional, possibly psychotic, individual, with access to weapons and driven by hatred.
A intelligent response to Fascism will only begin to form when people stop trying to paint Fascism as a individual psychological/psychiatric problem and see it for what it is: a social/political/cultural issue.

One step towards this would be to understand Fascism. I recommend Fromm's "The Mass Psychology of Fascism" and Rausching's "The Revolution of Nihilism".

Fascism is not a personal issue, it is a political issue.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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