Pittsburgh massacre

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Grigoris
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Grigoris » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:47 am

shaunc wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:51 am
The problem isn't the right wing of politics or the left wing of politics. The problem is extremism, and both sides have their share.
When was the last time you saw a left-wing extremist engage in mass murder for political ends? As such this equating of one side with the other is ingenious and dangerous and is generally used by supporters of extreme-right views to justify their actions.

A type of whataboutism based in pure fantasy.
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Wayfarer
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:00 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:47 am
shaunc wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:51 am
The problem isn't the right wing of politics or the left wing of politics. The problem is extremism, and both sides have their share.
When was the last time you saw a left-wing extremist engage in mass murder for political ends? As such this equating of one side with the other is ingenious and dangerous and is generally used by supporters of extreme-right views to justify their actions.

A type of whataboutism based in pure fantasy.
It’s not about ‘sides’. That’s what I think we’re questioning. You seem to automatically assume - crouch into, so to speak - the (valiant) Left vs the (evil) Right. Any ‘side’ which engages in such acts is evil, wherever they are on the political spectrum.

Were the Los Vegas shootings, or any of the other appalling slaughters we so regularly see in the USA, any better or worse because they were or were not politically motivated? I mean, certainly the current political climate isn’t helping in the least. But I don’t think that is actually, really political. It’s the failure of political discourse. That’s one the things that makes it so tragic, and also so frightening.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

PeterC
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by PeterC » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:07 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:32 am
PeterC wrote:it clearly had political character.
Well, I see your point, but I don’t see how saying that ‘it’s the Right’ actually does anything other than fan the flames. It’s criminal behaviour which I completely agree is being excacerbated by the hateful rhetoric of POTUS. But I would like to think that neither these acts, nor Trump’s hateful rhetoric, are actually representative of Republicanism per se. So I think depicting these acts as criminal, rather than as political statements, is more accurate.
These acts are criminal, but that does not make them apolitical. They are at best excused or condoned, and at worst encouraged by the political right. Nobody seriously debates this, yourself included I suspect. You believe that a more conciliatory approach to the political right will yield better results. I disagree. The high road takes you nowhere - indeed it plays straight into their hands. "You see," they will exclaim, "these are the acts of a small number of crazy people, they don't represent us." Your line of argument makes it all the easier for them to say this.

I'm not sure what 'Republicanism' means these days. If I were to define it, I would do so based on the actions of those who profess it, rather than the philosophical premises by which they excuse those actions. On those terms, it is a very ugly thing, of little merit, deserving condemnation.

Edit. Of course the most direct way to deal with this problem would be mass controls on gun ownership, for which there has been majority political support for some time, and which is consistently opposed by the republican party. However you look at it, you cannot 'depoliticize' these acts.

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Grigoris
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Grigoris » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:27 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:00 am
It’s not about ‘sides’.
Of course it is about "sides". There are those that back the actions of the shooter and those that stand against them.
That’s what I think we’re questioning. You seem to automatically assume - crouch into, so to speak - the (valiant) Left vs the (evil) Right. Any ‘side’ which engages in such acts is evil, wherever they are on the political spectrum.
Yes. But Antifa exist as a response to white-power excesses. In this particualr instance they ARE the (valiant) Left, as they have never engaged in evil actions. If you want to blind yourself to this reality and equate the two, then that is your delusion and not mine. Mine is slightly different! :tongue:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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clyde
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by clyde » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:20 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:33 am
clyde wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:37 pm
And I may be mistaken, but your question seemed to imply taking forceful action against fascists, not merely for self-defense.
So if we know that there is a Fascist (Mr Bowers, for example) preparing an armed attack, they should not be neutralised? That would not be self-defence?

We should wait until they begin their attack before taking action? Or maybe they should be allowed to carry out their attack and then we should respond, using it as an opportunity to practice mourning lost innocent lives?

No.
Simple answer - no.

These are good questions about speech and actions, and require wisdom, not anger or hatred.

With speech, it’s discriminating between protected free speech and hate speech that incites violence which is a crime.

With attacks, one need not wait for an actual attack as planning a crime is itself a crime.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by DGA » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:40 pm

clyde wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:20 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:33 am
clyde wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:37 pm
And I may be mistaken, but your question seemed to imply taking forceful action against fascists, not merely for self-defense.
So if we know that there is a Fascist (Mr Bowers, for example) preparing an armed attack, they should not be neutralised? That would not be self-defence?

We should wait until they begin their attack before taking action? Or maybe they should be allowed to carry out their attack and then we should respond, using it as an opportunity to practice mourning lost innocent lives?

No.
Simple answer - no.

These are good questions about speech and actions, and require wisdom, not anger or hatred.
You are assuming that Grigoris is advocating for anger or hatred, and not wisdom.

DGA
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by DGA » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:41 pm

Related media: lessons learned from the US Civil Rights movement

https://www.amazon.com/This-Nonviolent- ... 082236123X

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clyde
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by clyde » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:45 pm

DGA wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:40 pm
clyde wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:20 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:33 am

So if we know that there is a Fascist (Mr Bowers, for example) preparing an armed attack, they should not be neutralised? That would not be self-defence?

We should wait until they begin their attack before taking action? Or maybe they should be allowed to carry out their attack and then we should respond, using it as an opportunity to practice mourning lost innocent lives?

No.
Simple answer - no.

These are good questions about speech and actions, and require wisdom, not anger or hatred.
You are assuming that Grigoris is advocating for anger or hatred, and not wisdom.
Absolutely not. And I apologize that it seemed that way.

I noted “not anger or hatred” as I’ve read posts by Buddhists on forums and on other social media expressing sentiments like “It’s good to be an angry Buddhist right now.” But my comment wasn’t directed at or meant to imply that Grigoris had expressed anger or hatred. Again, sorry for the confusion.
Last edited by clyde on Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Monlam Tharchin
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Re: Pittsburgh massacre

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:34 pm

A few posts have been removed. This is a reminder that in emotionally charged topics such as these, it is especially important to measure our words so we can stay on topic.

:focus:
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