Deepfakes

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Virgo
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Deepfakes

Post by Virgo » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:16 pm

Why deepfakes are a real threat to elections and society.

Experts predict that deepfake videos will be the newest way false information is spread. Some researchers even have a wager going on whether they will impact the midterm elections.

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/wh ... 1711814881

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Re: Deepfakes

Post by Quay » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:57 am

Interesting article. The ability to create what seems to be an actual record of events but is rather a fantasy certainly is disturbing.

Though I suppose one could say that videos that have been altered & affected reality have been around for years. For example, the famous Zapruder Film of the Kennedy assassination gave rise to a number of conspiracy theories because when it was first released to the public because the frame that showed part of his head exploding was deliberately cut out. I think it was something like 25+ years before the public saw the whole film.
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Re: Deepfakes

Post by Virgo » Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:39 pm

Quay wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:57 am
I
Though I suppose one could say that videos that have been altered & affected reality have been around for years. For example, the famous Zapruder Film of the Kennedy assassination gave rise to a number of conspiracy theories because when it was first released to the public because the frame that showed part of his head exploding was deliberately cut out. I think it was something like 25+ years before the public saw the whole film.
Great point Quay (Quay Adi :)). I think as time goes on our defilements just find more ways to express themselves. More sophisticated tech just means more sophisticated ways to fool people. It's been going on a long time.

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Re: Deepfakes

Post by DGA » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:45 pm

In 1969, the US had the technological capacity to send astronauts to the moon, and then bring them home again. The technology did not exist at that time to fake a moon landing.

Today, the US lacks the technological capacity to send astronauts to the moon, and then bring them home again*. The technology does exist now to fake a moon landing.

Priorities?



*you could argue that the institutional memory exists for another moonshot now, but remember, those old farts did it with slide rules and long division

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Re: Deepfakes

Post by Queequeg » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:12 pm

Private companies like Adobe have developed the apps to synthesize moving images.

Private companies like Blue Origin and Space X are progressing on plans for space exploration.

What's actually remarkable is that in the past, projects like getting to the moon were so large in scale that only large nation states could afford it.

We are now in an age when private parties can afford it, and it seems if you are an aspiring rocket scientist, you're sending your resume to Elon Musk instead of NASA.

There's a few issues there - How is so much wealth being made and concentrated? Its also a testament to technological advancement that one person with a powerful computer can do the work of a team of physicists working with slide rules. It kind of makes sense that if private companies can pursue projects like space exploration, the government doesn't need to be so involved anymore. Government's role, in one way of thinking, is to facilitate what can't be done privately.

There is something Roman or British Empire in the way progress and advancement is being privatized now. In the past, companies like Pan Am (or the British East India Company, or Julius Caesar's campaigns in Gaul) were often fronts for the the State interests in public/private partnership. Bezos, in a rebuke to his employees complaining about contracting with the US military, basically echoed the correctness of American companies aligning with American national interests.

He also is talking about a future when there are a trillion human beings populating the solar system. That is one of the most awe inspiring thoughts I've heard in a while. NASA used to do that.

Is there a reason why NASA should be taking the lead in space exploration at this point in history? I don't know.

I don't have strong opinions on the above - just observations.
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Re: Deepfakes

Post by Grigoris » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:19 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:12 pm
What's actually remarkable is that in the past, projects like getting to the moon were so large in scale that only large nation states could afford it.
There is nothing remarkable about corporatism.
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Re: Deepfakes

Post by Queequeg » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:26 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:19 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:12 pm
What's actually remarkable is that in the past, projects like getting to the moon were so large in scale that only large nation states could afford it.
There is nothing remarkable about corporatism.
LOL

Am I under your skin yet?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Deepfakes

Post by Grigoris » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:34 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:26 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:19 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:12 pm
What's actually remarkable is that in the past, projects like getting to the moon were so large in scale that only large nation states could afford it.
There is nothing remarkable about corporatism.
LOL

Am I under your skin yet?
??? :shrug: ???
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Deepfakes

Post by PeterC » Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:48 am

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:12 pm
We are now in an age when private parties can afford it, and it seems if you are an aspiring rocket scientist, you're sending your resume to Elon Musk instead of NASA.

There's a few issues there - How is so much wealth being made and concentrated? Its also a testament to technological advancement that one person with a powerful computer can do the work of a team of physicists working with slide rules. It kind of makes sense that if private companies can pursue projects like space exploration, the government doesn't need to be so involved anymore. Government's role, in one way of thinking, is to facilitate what can't be done privately.

There is something Roman or British Empire in the way progress and advancement is being privatized now. In the past, companies like Pan Am (or the British East India Company, or Julius Caesar's campaigns in Gaul) were often fronts for the the State interests in public/private partnership. Bezos, in a rebuke to his employees complaining about contracting with the US military, basically echoed the correctness of American companies aligning with American national interests.
Interesting. A couple of comments.

Everything SpaceX has and does was borrowed from NASA. All the technical staff were hired from there or organizations that worked for NASA. Musk does a bit of cheerleading for them but doesn't really get closely involved - which is a good thing, given the mess he's making of Tesla. Musk is also, contrary to general beliefs, not a trained engineer so really wouldn't be a lot of help.

Private companies had the capital to fund the Apollo program at the time it was done. They didn't, because it wasn't worth it at the time, but this isn't unusual. In most areas of science and technology there's a trajectory from theoretical work to basic science to translational science and through to commercial application. You see this in biology, medicine, materials science, etc. The early stages are funded (usually) by public money with the intent of the results being widely available. The later stages are funded by private capital with the intent of retaining the IP for their own use. This is neither good nor bad - it's just the standard funding model.

There's a few ways to interpret the role of transnational corporations. The East India wasn't so much an arm of the state as the state served the interests of the company. The management were sufficiently powerful that they could basically have the government do what they wanted. It's questionable just how much the public purse benefited from supporting those activities. Some would argue the opposite for things like the United Fruit Company - that they were doing the political bidding of the state. But really I don't think it's ever a case of one directing the other, there's a convergence of interests.

I don't believe Bezos has a patriotic motivation at all - he's all about the money. He knows that this is going to be a huge application area, it will open the door to a massive amount of semi-public semi-private data analytics work, someone's going to do it, if it's not him then it will be a competitor. So he needs to do it. The morality of it is a secondary consideration.

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Re: Deepfakes

Post by Queequeg » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:56 am

You had me until you started divining Jeff Bezos' motivation.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Deepfakes

Post by Queequeg » Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:26 am

PeterC wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:48 am

Private companies had the capital to fund the Apollo program at the time it was done. They didn't, because it wasn't worth it at the time, but this isn't unusual. In most areas of science and technology there's a trajectory from theoretical work to basic science to translational science and through to commercial application. You see this in biology, medicine, materials science, etc. The early stages are funded (usually) by public money with the intent of the results being widely available. The later stages are funded by private capital with the intent of retaining the IP for their own use. This is neither good nor bad - it's just the standard funding model.
Just looking at NASA and Appollo budgets from the 60's, how do you figure private companies could have done that? It would have taken a fourth of GMs revenue, and that would involve giving up a significant part of their car business. And no profit on the horizon. I think your could is a very theoretical could. Maybe I'm missing something.
There's a few ways to interpret the role of transnational corporations. The East India wasn't so much an arm of the state as the state served the interests of the company. The management were sufficiently powerful that they could basically have the government do what they wanted. It's questionable just how much the public purse benefited from supporting those activities. Some would argue the opposite for things like the United Fruit Company - that they were doing the political bidding of the state. But really I don't think it's ever a case of one directing the other, there's a convergence of interests.
As Greg sneered above - corporatism. It's natural government and business world work together.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Deepfakes

Post by PeterC » Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:37 am

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:26 am
PeterC wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:48 am

Private companies had the capital to fund the Apollo program at the time it was done. They didn't, because it wasn't worth it at the time, but this isn't unusual. In most areas of science and technology there's a trajectory from theoretical work to basic science to translational science and through to commercial application. You see this in biology, medicine, materials science, etc. The early stages are funded (usually) by public money with the intent of the results being widely available. The later stages are funded by private capital with the intent of retaining the IP for their own use. This is neither good nor bad - it's just the standard funding model.
Just looking at NASA and Appollo budgets from the 60's, how do you figure private companies could have done that? It would have taken a fourth of GMs revenue, and that would involve giving up a significant part of their car business. And no profit on the horizon. I think your could is a very theoretical could. Maybe I'm missing something.
Consortium of half a dozen companies, spreading the cost over a decade, could definitely have done so, and that's before getting into tax-deductibility of the investment. But that's the difference between could and would. There was no ROI, so no way to fund it commercially. It's the sort of thing that had to be public investment. Hence my comment about the model for funding of scientific research.
There's a few ways to interpret the role of transnational corporations. The East India wasn't so much an arm of the state as the state served the interests of the company. The management were sufficiently powerful that they could basically have the government do what they wanted. It's questionable just how much the public purse benefited from supporting those activities. Some would argue the opposite for things like the United Fruit Company - that they were doing the political bidding of the state. But really I don't think it's ever a case of one directing the other, there's a convergence of interests.
As Greg sneered above - corporatism. It's natural government and business world work together.
My point was that it's not so simple as just saying, it's that evil military-industrial corporate conspiracy again. There's a shifting balance of power between corporate and state interests, sometimes they align, sometimes they don't, sometimes it's hard to figure out which is the tail and which is the dog. And the nature of the relationship varies considerably by country and over time. But the decisions and actions of companies and goverments are made by people, and sometimes, often unexpectedly, people can show a capacity for morality and decency. Not often, I admit, but it's not impossible.

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Re: Deepfakes

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:32 am

Rail against Trump, but then support another (supposedly liberal, but I agree their motivations are largely neither moral nor political) crop of rich technocrats getting to decide the direction of humanity...yeah, no thanks, hard pass.
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Re: Deepfakes

Post by Queequeg » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:02 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:32 am
crop of rich technocrats getting to decide the direction of humanity
There is a choke point. It happened yesterday. Its an annual thing.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Deepfakes

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:34 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:02 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:32 am
crop of rich technocrats getting to decide the direction of humanity
There is a choke point. It happened yesterday. Its an annual thing.
I participate, I just dont maintain any illusions about the limitations of it.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

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Re: Deepfakes

Post by Queequeg » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:58 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:34 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:02 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:32 am
crop of rich technocrats getting to decide the direction of humanity
There is a choke point. It happened yesterday. Its an annual thing.
I participate, I just dont maintain any illusions about the limitations of it.
Who maintains illusions? What are these illusions?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Deepfakes

Post by Mantrik » Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:25 pm

So, a President who tells people not to believe what they see has now used a doctored video to accuse CNN's Acosta’s of touching a female White House staffer without her consent. The video was speeded up etc. to make it look as if Costa hit her arm.

The actual live video shows the woman attempting to grab the microphone from Costa, making contact with him several times, and finally giving up after he politely refuses to let go. At no point does he make a move towards her.

Acosta has now been banned from the White House.

How long before Trump suggests bombing CNN, I wonder, just as Bush wanted to bomb Al Jazeera.

Using doctored video footage may not be new, but is undoubtedly the precursor to manufacturing fake news from scratch.
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Re: Deepfakes

Post by justsit » Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:36 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:25 pm
So, a President who tells people not to believe what they see has now used a doctored video to accuse CNN's Acosta’s of touching a female White House staffer without her consent. The video was speeded up etc. to make it look as if Costa hit her arm.
They didn't even do it themselves, they apparently snagged it from InfoWars.

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Re: Deepfakes

Post by Mantrik » Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:58 pm

justsit wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:36 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:25 pm
So, a President who tells people not to believe what they see has now used a doctored video to accuse CNN's Acosta’s of touching a female White House staffer without her consent. The video was speeded up etc. to make it look as if Costa hit her arm.
They didn't even do it themselves, they apparently snagged it from InfoWars.
Seems so. I find it hard to believe they were just negligent in not checking the video properly. After all, Trump was looking right at the guy when it happened, so clearly agreed to use what he thought would justify the ban. Trump is dim, but also doesn't care if other versions of the video are available as they will, of course, be dismissed as a conspiracy by media liars.
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: Deepfakes

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:38 am

Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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