Blue "ripple"

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boda
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Re: Blue "ripple"

Post by boda » Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:40 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:12 pm
Dems seem to have won the suburbs. Still have no economic message for the working classes.

We need to continue making the case:

Eliminate basic economic insecurities like healthcare (and shore up other basic social safety net programs), open paths for young people to acquire the skills they will need in this economy without saddling them with debt, and infrastructure to lay the ground work for the coming wave of technological advancements that will in the short and medium term offer good paying jobs and get money flowing inside the economy.

Pay for it with taxes on those that benefit the most from our commonwealth.
This would have some appeal for rural America or conservatives?

pemachophel
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Re: Blue "ripple"

Post by pemachophel » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:55 pm

How 'bout changing the constitution so that sparsely populated rural states don't hold the rest of the country captive? Wyoming only has 500,000+ people, while California has 37 million (I think that's the number). In other words, the population of California is 16+ times that of Wyoming. Yet both only get two Senators. That means every vote in Wyoming is 16 times more powerful than a single vote in California.

This may have made sense at the time of the framing of the Constitution when the original 13 states had pretty similar populations, but it makes no sense now. This kind of systemic inequity is one of the reasons people (and especially younger people) don't vote. The Dems in this election cast 12 million more votes than the Republicans.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

Norwegian
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Re: Blue "ripple"

Post by Norwegian » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:59 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:55 pm
How 'bout changing the constitution so that sparsely populated rural states don't hold the rest of the country captive? Wyoming only has 500,000+ people, while California has 37 million (I think that's the number). In other words, the population of California is 16+ times that of Wyoming. Yet both only get two Senators. That means every vote in Wyoming is 16 times more powerful than a single vote in California.

This may have made sense at the time of the framing of the Constitution when the original 13 states had pretty similar populations, but it makes no sense now. This kind of systemic inequity is one of the reasons people (and especially younger people) don't vote. The Dems in this election cast 12 million more votes than the Republicans.
Agreed. This is ridiculous. And it looks like a complete joke.

ford_truckin
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Re: Blue "ripple"

Post by ford_truckin » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:48 pm

I am slightly disappointed by the results. Hopefully we can regain the house in 2020.

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Blue "ripple"

Post by Kim O'Hara » Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:13 am

pemachophel wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:55 pm
How 'bout changing the constitution so that sparsely populated rural states don't hold the rest of the country captive? Wyoming only has 500,000+ people, while California has 37 million (I think that's the number). In other words, the population of California is 16+ times that of Wyoming. Yet both only get two Senators. That means every vote in Wyoming is 16 times more powerful than a single vote in California.

This may have made sense at the time of the framing of the Constitution when the original 13 states had pretty similar populations, but it makes no sense now. This kind of systemic inequity is one of the reasons people (and especially younger people) don't vote. The Dems in this election cast 12 million more votes than the Republicans.
I wasn't aware of this gerrymander but it doesn't surprise me in retrospect because we have a similar arrangement - a federal system in which each state gets equal representation in the upper house. I suspect that the origins are the same: that states, independent when the federation was formed, wouldn't agree to join it without equal representation.

Good luck with changing the constitution to make it fairer. :tongue:

:namaste:
Kim

PeterC
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Re: Blue "ripple"

Post by PeterC » Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:27 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:13 am
pemachophel wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:55 pm
How 'bout changing the constitution so that sparsely populated rural states don't hold the rest of the country captive? Wyoming only has 500,000+ people, while California has 37 million (I think that's the number). In other words, the population of California is 16+ times that of Wyoming. Yet both only get two Senators. That means every vote in Wyoming is 16 times more powerful than a single vote in California.

This may have made sense at the time of the framing of the Constitution when the original 13 states had pretty similar populations, but it makes no sense now. This kind of systemic inequity is one of the reasons people (and especially younger people) don't vote. The Dems in this election cast 12 million more votes than the Republicans.
I wasn't aware of this gerrymander but it doesn't surprise me in retrospect because we have a similar arrangement - a federal system in which each state gets equal representation in the upper house. I suspect that the origins are the same: that states, independent when the federation was formed, wouldn't agree to join it without equal representation.

Good luck with changing the constitution to make it fairer. :tongue:

:namaste:
Kim
Great article on the history and legacy of the fight for federal electoral power:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... es/564722/

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Malcolm
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Re: Blue "ripple"

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:38 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:13 am
pemachophel wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:55 pm
How 'bout changing the constitution so that sparsely populated rural states don't hold the rest of the country captive? Wyoming only has 500,000+ people, while California has 37 million (I think that's the number). In other words, the population of California is 16+ times that of Wyoming. Yet both only get two Senators. That means every vote in Wyoming is 16 times more powerful than a single vote in California.

This may have made sense at the time of the framing of the Constitution when the original 13 states had pretty similar populations, but it makes no sense now. This kind of systemic inequity is one of the reasons people (and especially younger people) don't vote. The Dems in this election cast 12 million more votes than the Republicans.
I wasn't aware of this gerrymander but it doesn't surprise me in retrospect because we have a similar arrangement - a federal system in which each state gets equal representation in the upper house. I suspect that the origins are the same: that states, independent when the federation was formed, wouldn't agree to join it without equal representation.

Good luck with changing the constitution to make it fairer. :tongue:

:namaste:
Kim
The Senate, in the US is the US version of the House of Lords.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: Blue "ripple"

Post by Queequeg » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:12 am

boda wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:40 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:12 pm
Dems seem to have won the suburbs. Still have no economic message for the working classes.

We need to continue making the case:

Eliminate basic economic insecurities like healthcare (and shore up other basic social safety net programs), open paths for young people to acquire the skills they will need in this economy without saddling them with debt, and infrastructure to lay the ground work for the coming wave of technological advancements that will in the short and medium term offer good paying jobs and get money flowing inside the economy.

Pay for it with taxes on those that benefit the most from our commonwealth.
This would have some appeal for rural America or conservatives?
Infrastructure, particularly the jobs that would be created, would appeal to rural areas. Conservatives? Which ones are we talking about? Social conservatives or economic conservatives?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

amanitamusc
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Re: Blue "ripple"

Post by amanitamusc » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:22 am

conebeckham wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:10 pm
Dorje Shedrub wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:36 pm
I agree that Dems should not try impeachment, unless there is bipartisan support; however, they may now be in a position to subpoena records and protect Mueller.

DS
Yes. We will have to see what bomb Mueller drops.
But I forsee DT being elected to a second term, unless something un-f-ing believable happens.....
Yes at this rate Delirum Tremens "no offense to the beer" will be elected again.He has
never really stopped campaigning .The media loves sensationalism and he is the
embodiment of .
He will secure his second term by targeting the house dems for all the problems.
Sad really.There is no counter at this point.

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Queequeg
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Re: Blue "ripple"

Post by Queequeg » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:29 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:13 am
I wasn't aware of this gerrymander but it doesn't surprise me in retrospect because we have a similar arrangement - a federal system in which each state gets equal representation in the upper house. I suspect that the origins are the same: that states, independent when the federation was formed, wouldn't agree to join it without equal representation.

Good luck with changing the constitution to make it fairer. :tongue:

:namaste:
Kim
That's not what we mean by gerrymandering. That's just the way the constitution set up the two legislative houses - one apportioned based on population (the House of Representatives) and one apportioned by state (the Senate with two Senators from each state). Part of the thinking was to put a check on "mob" rule, and part of it was a compromise between small and big states.

Gerrymandering refers to the drawing of various districts within a given jurisdiction to give one party or another an advantage. In really egregious situations, you have districts shaped like this:
Image
I was looking for one map I remember in which a district was shaped like two or three starbursts connected by long lines that basically just followed a road for several miles. When they draw these maps, they map party members and might try to connect one neighborhood with a concentration of one party or another with another area to dilute the opposing party. Democrats and Republicans both do this, though Republicans made it into a concerted strategy in the last generation and have gone really far with it. This is part of why they hold so many offices despite losing popular votes often. The idea is to concentrate all of the votes of the opposing party in a few districts, and hedge everywhere else.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

PeterC
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Re: Blue "ripple"

Post by PeterC » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:49 am

conebeckham wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:10 pm
Dorje Shedrub wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:36 pm
I agree that Dems should not try impeachment, unless there is bipartisan support; however, they may now be in a position to subpoena records and protect Mueller.

DS
Yes. We will have to see what bomb Mueller drops.
But I forsee DT being elected to a second term, unless something un-f-ing believable happens.....
There is a long-standing rule that the DoJ makes no election-influencing indictments or public actions within two months of polls. Of course Comey didn't adhere to that, so we have Trump. But if you look at the timing of Mueller's activities, he went dead silent about 60 days ago, presumably to avoid anyone accusing him of violating that rule. Now that the time out's over, he's going to re-enter the game, and I think the next month will be very interesting

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Blue "ripple"

Post by Kim O'Hara » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:02 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:29 am
Kim O'Hara wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:13 am
I wasn't aware of this gerrymander but it doesn't surprise me in retrospect because we have a similar arrangement - a federal system in which each state gets equal representation in the upper house. I suspect that the origins are the same: that states, independent when the federation was formed, wouldn't agree to join it without equal representation.

Good luck with changing the constitution to make it fairer. :tongue:

:namaste:
Kim
That's not what we mean by gerrymandering. That's just the way the constitution set up the two legislative houses - one apportioned based on population (the House of Representatives) and one apportioned by state (the Senate with two Senators from each state). Part of the thinking was to put a check on "mob" rule, and part of it was a compromise between small and big states.
More or less as I thought.
But the result is a situation in which some votes count far more than others, and if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck I'm going to call it a duck - ah, gerrymander - whether the reasons are historical or political.
Gerrymandering refers to the drawing of various districts within a given jurisdiction to give one party or another an advantage. In really egregious situations, you have districts shaped like this:
...
the idea is to concentrate all of the votes of the opposing party in a few districts, and hedge everywhere else.
:jawdrop:
And I thought we had some good gerrymanders!
Aussies are obviously rank amateurs compared to Americans.

:coffee:
Kim

boda
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Re: Blue "ripple"

Post by boda » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:55 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:12 am
boda wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:40 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:12 pm
Dems seem to have won the suburbs. Still have no economic message for the working classes.

We need to continue making the case:

Eliminate basic economic insecurities like healthcare (and shore up other basic social safety net programs), open paths for young people to acquire the skills they will need in this economy without saddling them with debt, and infrastructure to lay the ground work for the coming wave of technological advancements that will in the short and medium term offer good paying jobs and get money flowing inside the economy.

Pay for it with taxes on those that benefit the most from our commonwealth.
This would have some appeal for rural America or conservatives?
Infrastructure, particularly the jobs that would be created, would appeal to rural areas.
Trump promised a trillion bucks for infrastructure AND lowering taxes. He delivered on the latter (for the rich anyway) but not the former, and Republicans don't seem to care much, if at all. So that appears to be a very small carrot.
Conservatives? Which ones are we talking about? Social conservatives or economic conservatives?
I think that nature of conservatism makes such distinctions not as easily separated as they may be for a progressive liberal, and that may be part of why liberals have difficulty crafting an appealing message for a conservative audience.

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Queequeg
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Re: Blue "ripple"

Post by Queequeg » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:58 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:55 pm
How 'bout changing the constitution so that sparsely populated rural states don't hold the rest of the country captive?
Because changing the constitution is really hard. Practically speaking, it is impossible. So, no sense in fretting over it or wasting even one calorie of brain power over it. You just take it as one of the rules and play the game.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Queequeg
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Re: Blue "ripple"

Post by Queequeg » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:15 pm

boda wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:55 pm
Trump promised a trillion bucks for infrastructure AND lowering taxes. He delivered on the latter (for the rich anyway) but not the former, and Republicans don't seem to care much, if at all. So that appears to be a very small carrot.
There are places that are hopeless Trump holes. A lot of other places, the votes are close enough that flipping a few key votes flips the voting district.

I think there is a considerable segment of Trump support that should be old school, working class Democrat. Its the Joe Biden constituency. They'll vote for whoever they think will get them work. Democrats consciously moved away from that base in favor of a new constituency of progressives, suburban women, and minorities. They turned their back on working class democrats. It was embodied in Clinton's decision to put her headquarters in Brooklyn instead of a rust belt city.

May be relevant: https://nyti.ms/2DaRdGA

Bernie was making that pitch to the working class. Who knows if his marxist accent who have doomed his pitch, but that would have been some heavy weight battle in 2016.

I think there is an angle to peel away those people who used to be working class democrats a generation ago, and the thrust of that pitch is something like "Building a New America" with a heavy emphasis on infrastructure spending. Until democrats get the senate, though, it won't happen. The Republicans will give lip service to infrastructure but will quickly start screaming about deficits and moving the goal posts, like they did on healthcare.

The next two years in the house is all about 2020. Nothing big will get passed. The house is going to be focused on bringing out all of Trump's dirty laundry and digging up bodies.
Conservatives? Which ones are we talking about? Social conservatives or economic conservatives?
I think that nature of conservatism makes such distinctions not as easily separated as they may be for a progressive liberal, and that may be part of why liberals have difficulty crafting an appealing message for a conservative audience.
Well, social or fiscal, conservative may just be the natural antogonist. That said, there are opportunities to work with social conservatives on things like immigration, especially when it comes to the most vulnerable populations and refugees.

We gotta step back from this tribal precipice and get down to contingent coalitions around policies. Maybe a pipe dream.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

boda
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Re: Blue "ripple"

Post by boda » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:09 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:15 pm
We gotta step back from this tribal precipice and get down to contingent coalitions around policies. Maybe a pipe dream.
Clearly that’s not going to be initiated from the Divider-In-Chief.

It’ll be interesting to see how things develop with a democratic majority in the house. The hostility could escalate.

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Queequeg
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Re: Blue "ripple"

Post by Queequeg » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:15 pm

boda wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:09 pm
Clearly that’s not going to be initiated from the Divider-In-Chief.

It’ll be interesting to see how things develop with a democratic majority in the house. The hostility could escalate.
Yeah, I think increased hostility is on the menu, unfortunately. Flipping the news channels last night, sounded like house dems are putting on their war paint even as Pelosi was talking a good game of engagement and bipartisanship.

:popcorn: This is going to be some compelling reality TV.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Quay
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Re: Blue "ripple"

Post by Quay » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:10 am

DNS wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:56 am
Counting still going on as I write this, however, overall it appears it is not going to be a Blue wave, nor a Red wave; perhaps a Blue "ripple" at best.
It appears the Dems will re-take control of the House, but not the Senate.
I completely disagree. It was a Blue Wave the like of which has not been seen since the aftermath of Watergate. US Politics doesn't usually move this fast or this radically, especially in terms of how many avidly progressive new member of Congress there are now. Not to mention state and local elections where six states flipped their legislature, at least seven governorships, and a lot of very nice surprises such as the number of women elected, that Colorado governor, and Massachusetts upholding transgender rights. State voters expanded their own Medicaid when there Republican leaders refused to. Paul LePage is finally gone in Maine. And even in Deepest Red South Carolina, for the first time in 40 years the 1st District elected a Democrat, Joe Cunningham, which is so unusual here one could liken it to Rosie O'Donnell being elected Queen of Trump Tower.

Of course it was a mixed result in many places, like the odious "forced birther" laws in Alabama and West Virginia, the fact we have to still look at Ted Cruz for another six years, and many who lost would have been better to keep in their current positions.

Best of all perhaps is that the House will return to being itself, exercising actual oversight powers while passing good legislation. (Sure who knows what will go on when it hits the Senate but still.) And the House is our most powerful branch because it controls the purse strings. It's remarkable how much power it actually can wield but not surprising people have forgotten about it since the last two years under its soon to be over leadership has seen it become a lickspittle branch of do-nothing fools. That is about to change, bigly, in January.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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DNS
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Re: Blue "ripple"

Post by DNS » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:02 am

In the 2006 mid-terms, the Dems had a net gain of 6 seats in the Senate and + 31 in the House
In the 2010 mid-terms, the Republicans had a net gain of 6 seats in the Senate and + 63 in the House

Those are "waves" in my opinion.

In 2018 the Dems lost a net number of seats in the Senate and re-gained majority in the House, but nothing like the numbers in 2006 or what the Republicans did in 2010.

I agree though, that it was a big win for diversity. There was a record number of women winning, two Muslim women elected to Congress, two Native-American women, a lesbian MMA fighter elected, and an openly gay man elected governor. And of course, Hawaii's Congressional delegation now consists of 2 Buddhists and one Hindu (Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard - Hindu), (Congresswoman Hanabusa - Buddhist), (Senator Hirono - Buddhist).

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Re: Blue "ripple"

Post by DNS » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:15 am

UPDATE:

More counting completed, more races called. Okay, now it's looking less like a ripple and more like a wave: Blue Wave that is.

https://www.270towin.com/2018-house-election/

As of this writing, it appears the Dems will have at least 230 seats in the new House, a net gain of at least 37.

And even the Senate, now appears to be a more narrow, very small Republican majority:
https://www.270towin.com/2018-election- ... ve/senate/

As of this writing, about 52 - 47

And there are still a few more races still not called, so the numbers for the Dems could even go higher.

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