Another day in America

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Lukeinaz
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Re: Another day in America

Post by Lukeinaz » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:23 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:01 pm
If directly addressing guns is too hard, then one option is to go back to approaching guns as a health issue. This would establish the "compelling government interest" in regulating guns, giving clearance from the 2nd amendment. Might even make some executive actions possible that would bypass congress.
This idea is ridiculous considering the country's already failing health solutions. Just look at alcohol for instance, over 80,000 deaths annually.
You are truly astonishing--going to look for yourself when you already are yourself! --Longchen Rabjam

shaunc
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Re: Another day in America

Post by shaunc » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:49 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:56 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:19 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:12 pm
...these are statistically rare events...
You keep saying that and yet every time I turn on my computer I learn of a new massacre. Every day. It seems that your statistical anomalies are becoming averages...
Compared to car accidents, definitely. 101 people die every day in car collisions in the US.
There's a bit of a difference Malcolm, with a car accident I don't think there'd be intent to kill or be killed very often.
With a mass shooting I'd say that intent is there most of the time.

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Grigoris
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Re: Another day in America

Post by Grigoris » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:13 pm

Basically America is like a cancer patient that refuses to get a malignant tumor removed, even though they know it is slowly killing them.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Another day in America

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:17 pm

shaunc wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:49 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:56 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:19 pm
You keep saying that and yet every time I turn on my computer I learn of a new massacre. Every day. It seems that your statistical anomalies are becoming averages...
Compared to car accidents, definitely. 101 people die every day in car collisions in the US.
There's a bit of a difference Malcolm, with a car accident I don't think there'd be intent to kill or be killed very often.
With a mass shooting I'd say that intent is there most of the time.
He didn't say they were the same, he said one was much more likely to cause someone's death than the other, which it is.

This is the point I was trying to make, despite this sad uptick in mass shootings, the actual prevalence of murder, including by firearms, is down since the 80's 90's, last I looked into the statistics. Times which were themselves quite safe compared to many other historical periods. That's not to say we don't have a gut wrenching problem, we do. Just that the media presentation of these things is very much meant to be a spectacle, and I personally do not want to approach it that way.

As some of the statistics mentioned earlier, if we are really concerned with gun death then suicide should be at the top of the list, because the largest single chunk of deaths by firearm are suicides, they absolutely dwarf mass shootings. people keep saying "do something"...I wish we would, but the fact is that we already had a problem before mass shootings became more common, and even if we cut down somehow on mass shootings specifically (for instance regulating the ability of things like AR-15s and extended magazines) we will still have a problem that people only care about when there are mass shootings on the news. I get these things are scary and gut wrenching, but these events are proportionally similar to terrorism, relatively uncommon events whose randomness makes them horrifying, and I can only assume at least some of the perpetrators intend just that effect.

So as far as whether or not it's a public health problem, i don't know how it could be defined as anything else. Breathless media event I guess, given the way the discussions usually go.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

shaunc
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Re: Another day in America

Post by shaunc » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:23 am

And statistically I could say that we're all going to die of something one day anyway, so why bother.
They put seatbelts in cars and criminalised drink driving to make things a bit safer. I really can't see why it's so much harder with guns.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Another day in America

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:26 am

shaunc wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:23 am
And statistically I could say that we're all going to die of something one day anyway, so why bother.
They put seatbelts in cars and criminalised drink driving to make things a bit safer. I really can't see why it's so much harder with guns.
That's actually not what anyone said at all, and that's an inaccurate analogy.

If you have the perfect solution for our present moment go ahead and let people know, sounds like you have it figured out.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

shaunc
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Re: Another day in America

Post by shaunc » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:32 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:26 am
shaunc wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:23 am
And statistically I could say that we're all going to die of something one day anyway, so why bother.
They put seatbelts in cars and criminalised drink driving to make things a bit safer. I really can't see why it's so much harder with guns.
That's actually not what anyone said at all, and that's an inaccurate analogy.

If you have the perfect solution for our present moment go ahead and let people know, sounds like you have it figured out.

Making handguns and semiautomatic weapons taboo wouldn't be a bad start.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Another day in America

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:47 am

shaunc wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:32 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:26 am
shaunc wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:23 am
And statistically I could say that we're all going to die of something one day anyway, so why bother.
They put seatbelts in cars and criminalised drink driving to make things a bit safer. I really can't see why it's so much harder with guns.
That's actually not what anyone said at all, and that's an inaccurate analogy.

If you have the perfect solution for our present moment go ahead and let people know, sounds like you have it figured out.

Making handguns and semiautomatic weapons taboo wouldn't be a bad start.
Making things taboo usually just digs people in, though sure, itd be great if we could just change the culture.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

shaunc
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Re: Another day in America

Post by shaunc » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:26 am

In 2010 the U.S. outlawed cockfighting and most people managed to get on with their lives, more recently Florida outlawed greyhound racing, which has 11 of the 17 tracks in the U.S.
I find it hard to believe that the leaders of these countries rank a human life somewhere below a chicken and a dog's life.
Surely a stroke of the pen is an easier gig than building a bloody wall.

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justsit
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Re: Another day in America

Post by justsit » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:46 pm

shaunc wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:26 am
I find it hard to believe that the leaders of these countries rank a human life somewhere below a chicken and a dog's life.
Believe it, sadly.

The US Constitution has been interpreted to protect an individual's right to bear arms. There is big money involved in making sure that doesn't change, regardless of what "leaders" might or might not think.

Malcolm
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Re: Another day in America

Post by Malcolm » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:09 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:17 pm
people keep saying "do something"...I wish we would...
We know what do to: thoughts and prayers, people, thoughts and prayers.

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Re: Another day in America

Post by Malcolm » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:14 pm

justsit wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:46 pm
shaunc wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:26 am
I find it hard to believe that the leaders of these countries rank a human life somewhere below a chicken and a dog's life.
Believe it, sadly.

The US Constitution has been interpreted to protect an individual's right to bear arms. There is big money involved in making sure that doesn't change, regardless of what "leaders" might or might not think.
It is not only guns, it's culture, especially in the South and the West. Here in Massachusetts, we have extremely strict gun laws, and the lowest level of gun violence in the US. But just across the border, in Vermont, there is more gun violence in a state with 1/10th our population because they have much looser gun laws.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Another day in America

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:26 am

shaunc wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:26 am
In 2010 the U.S. outlawed cockfighting and most people managed to get on with their lives, more recently Florida outlawed greyhound racing, which has 11 of the 17 tracks in the U.S.
I find it hard to believe that the leaders of these countries rank a human life somewhere below a chicken and a dog's life.
Surely a stroke of the pen is an easier gig than building a bloody wall.
Again, kind of a bizarre and inaccurate bizarre analogy. The country is saturated with guns, and the chances of implementing something like what was done are Australia or the UK is virtually nil here, partially due to population, and also to culture and other variables. It's a sad situation all around.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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justsit
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Re: Another day in America

Post by justsit » Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:06 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:26 am
shaunc wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:26 am
In 2010 the U.S. outlawed cockfighting and most people managed to get on with their lives, more recently Florida outlawed greyhound racing, which has 11 of the 17 tracks in the U.S.
I find it hard to believe that the leaders of these countries rank a human life somewhere below a chicken and a dog's life.
Surely a stroke of the pen is an easier gig than building a bloody wall.
Again, kind of a bizarre and inaccurate bizarre analogy. The country is saturated with guns, and the chances of implementing something like what was done are Australia or the UK is virtually nil here, partially due to population, and also to culture and other variables. It's a sad situation all around.
True.
To shaunc: Prohibiting greyhound racing and cockfighting may anger some people, but those actions do not strike additional fear into the hearts of those already terrified that they may not be able to purchase and keep an AK47. This is what we're up against:

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DNS
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Re: Another day in America

Post by DNS » Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:04 pm

One of my favorite funny scenes from a movie:



Men in Black, the alien remarks:
"Your proposal is acceptable." :lol:

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Grigoris
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Re: Another day in America

Post by Grigoris » Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:09 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:26 am
The country is saturated with guns...
My refrigerator is currently packed up with food. I am hungry. But I am not going to eat, because I can't possibly eat all the food that is in there, in one go.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Caoimhghín
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Re: Another day in America

Post by Caoimhghín » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:43 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:14 pm
justsit wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:46 pm
shaunc wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:26 am
I find it hard to believe that the leaders of these countries rank a human life somewhere below a chicken and a dog's life.
Believe it, sadly.

The US Constitution has been interpreted to protect an individual's right to bear arms. There is big money involved in making sure that doesn't change, regardless of what "leaders" might or might not think.
It is not only guns, it's culture, especially in the South and the West. Here in Massachusetts, we have extremely strict gun laws, and the lowest level of gun violence in the US. But just across the border, in Vermont, there is more gun violence in a state with 1/10th our population because they have much looser gun laws.
America's gun culture isn't limited to America. It's not just the "guns". It's something deeper.

My dad stocks guns because he thinks its just a matter of time before the government starts "genociding" random white people.

He lives in rural Canada, and is pretty mainstream for rural Canadian culture. He has 23 guns at my childhood home. Canada does not have large public shooting statistics.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

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justsit
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Re: Another day in America

Post by justsit » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:43 am

After the American Medical Association (AMA) once again called for gun regulation after the latest shooting, the NRA responded on Twitter;

"Someone should tell self-important anti-gun doctors to stay in their lane. Half of the articles in Annals of Internal Medicine are pushing for gun control. Most upsetting, however, the medical community seems to have consulted NO ONE but themselves. https://t.co/oCR3uiLtS7

— NRA (@NRA) November 7, 2018"

Quite a few doctors replied, many in this vein:

"Jennifer Gunter‏ @DrJenGunter Who do you think removes bullets from spines and repairs (or tries to) livers blasted by an AR-15? The tooth fairy? This literally is medicine’s lane."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2 ... 2b552f581c.

Would love to see the AMA use its clout to trump the NRA.
(cross-posted on DWE)

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Grigoris
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Re: Another day in America

Post by Grigoris » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:27 am

What is the deal with referendums to push for changes in law, in the US? Could that be a possible avenue for "bottom-up" change?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Wayfarer
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Re: Another day in America

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:06 am

I’m afraid that unless and until the association of owning weapons with freedom is abandoned, there not much hope for change. It paints those calling for gun control as ‘enemies of freedom’ and gun owners as ‘defenders of freedom’.

Whereas I would have thought that in reality, ‘civic freedom’ is NOT having to own a gun. I mean, I can imagine circumstances in which I would want to own a gun, but as an urban-dweller in the country in which I live, there is simply no requirement for it. Whereas if the American pro-gun advocates have their way, schools, synagogues, and all manner of public places would be patrolled by armed guards. To me that signifies a fundamental breakdown of civil order.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi

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