Shambhala closes NYC center

The best place for discussion of current events. News about Buddhists and Buddhism is particularly welcome.
Knotty Veneer
Posts: 578
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Shambhala closes NYC center

Post by Knotty Veneer » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:59 pm

According to Lionsroar.com, Shambhala is to close it's NYC center in Manhattan.

Based at 22nd Street between 5th and 6th, the article states that they can no longer afford the $30k per month rent.

Are we seeing the first tangible knock on effect of the recent scandal?
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

Malcolm
Posts: 29105
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Shambhala closes NYC center

Post by Malcolm » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:17 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:59 pm
According to Lionsroar.com, Shambhala is to close it's NYC center in Manhattan.

Based at 22nd Street between 5th and 6th, the article states that they can no longer afford the $30k per month rent.

Are we seeing the first tangible knock on effect of the recent scandal?
Frankly, it is ridiculous and obscene that any Dharma center pay $360,000 dollars a year in rent.

Knotty Veneer
Posts: 578
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Re: Shambhala closes NYC center

Post by Knotty Veneer » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:17 pm

Frankly, it is ridiculous and obscene that any Dharma center pay $360,000 dollars a year in rent.
Indeed. I know [a cult group that] has a biggish center on 24th st (between 6th and 7th, I think). I'm sure they must be paying something similar if they don't own the space.

But if you want to attract folks with money, you gotta go where they are.
Last edited by Grigoris on Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed reference to THE cult group.
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

User avatar
pueraeternus
Posts: 864
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:10 pm

Re: Shambhala closes NYC center

Post by pueraeternus » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:10 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:31 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:17 pm

Frankly, it is ridiculous and obscene that any Dharma center pay $360,000 dollars a year in rent.
Indeed. I know [a cult group that] has a biggish center on 24th st (between 6th and 7th, I think). I'm sure they must be paying something similar if they don't own the space.

But if you want to attract folks with money, you gotta go where they are.
Not just attract moneyed folks, but outreach in general. Not everyone living in Manhattan are filthy rich.
Last edited by Grigoris on Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed reference to THE cult group.
"Men must want to do things out of their own innermost drives. People, not commercial organizations or chains of command, are what make great civilizations work. Every civilization depends upon the quality of the individuals it produces. If you over-organize humans, over-legalize them, suppress their urge to greatness - they cannot work and their civilization collapses."
- A letter to CHOAM, attributed to the Preacher

User avatar
Adamantine
Former staff member
Posts: 3920
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
Location: Space is the Place

Re: Shambhala closes NYC center

Post by Adamantine » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:34 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:17 pm
Knotty Veneer wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:59 pm
According to Lionsroar.com, Shambhala is to close it's NYC center in Manhattan.

Based at 22nd Street between 5th and 6th, the article states that they can no longer afford the $30k per month rent.

Are we seeing the first tangible knock on effect of the recent scandal?
Frankly, it is ridiculous and obscene that any Dharma center pay $360,000 dollars a year in rent.
I had the exact same thought. And I’ve had great opportunities there, this place enabled me to receive teachings from Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, Namkha Drimed Rinpoche, Thinley Norbu Rinpoche, Sechen Rabjam Rinpoche, Dzigar Kongtrul Rinpoche...
Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche, Bhakha Tulku Rinpoche and many more.. so in one sense you could say even the floorboards should be enshrined for the sake of the sacred sweat of the lotus feet of these sublime Lamas. However... $30k a month? I do find that beyond obscene. A wealthy sponsor should have simply bought a space for the center 10-20 years ago.. that’s already $3-6 million in rent that was spent which would have been better spent on owning a space.. quite odd. Although who knows who and how these decisions were made.

Also.. none of this caliber of teacher really had been invited since 2008 or so once the center became officially only for Shambhala Acharyas to teach at.. which was a great loss for NYC as it’d been such a dynamic space before it got so insular. So to be honest I’d hardly been there in the last decade.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

shaunc
Posts: 772
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:10 am

Re: Shambhala closes NYC center

Post by shaunc » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:59 am

The market dictates the terms. If people want it there they'll pay, if no one antes up it'll go.
The landlord will get his $30K/month off someone.

ford_truckin
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:03 am

Re: Shambhala closes NYC center

Post by ford_truckin » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:23 am

there should be more missionary activity amongst buddhists otherwise centers will continue to shut down

User avatar
Grigoris
Site Admin
Posts: 19876
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Shambhala closes NYC center

Post by Grigoris » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:38 am

ford_truckin wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:23 am
there should be more missionary activity amongst buddhists otherwise centers will continue to shut down
The Buddha required students ask him a question three times before he answered and you want Buddhists to be more missionary?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

ford_truckin
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:03 am

Re: Shambhala closes NYC center

Post by ford_truckin » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:58 am

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:38 am
ford_truckin wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:23 am
there should be more missionary activity amongst buddhists otherwise centers will continue to shut down
The Buddha required students ask him a question three times before he answered and you want Buddhists to be more missionary?
To quote the Buddha:

Wander forth, O bhikkhus, for the welfare of the multitude, for the happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the good, welfare, and happiness of devas and humans. Let not two go the same way. Teach, O bhikkhus, the Dhamma that is good in the beginning, good in the middle, good in the end, with the right meaning and phrasing.” Samyutta Nikaya 4.453

That sounds missionary to me.

User avatar
Grigoris
Site Admin
Posts: 19876
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Shambhala closes NYC center

Post by Grigoris » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:05 am

ford_truckin wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:58 am
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:38 am
ford_truckin wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:23 am
there should be more missionary activity amongst buddhists otherwise centers will continue to shut down
The Buddha required students ask him a question three times before he answered and you want Buddhists to be more missionary?
To quote the Buddha:

Wander forth, O bhikkhus, for the welfare of the multitude, for the happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the good, welfare, and happiness of devas and humans. Let not two go the same way. Teach, O bhikkhus, the Dhamma that is good in the beginning, good in the middle, good in the end, with the right meaning and phrasing.” Samyutta Nikaya 4.453

That sounds missionary to me.
You are a monk (bhikkhu)? So how does this teaching translate into your reality?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Knotty Veneer
Posts: 578
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Re: Shambhala closes NYC center

Post by Knotty Veneer » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:00 am

pueraeternus wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:10 pm

Not just attract moneyed folks, but outreach in general. Not everyone living in Manhattan are filthy rich.
You're right. I know that part of town well as my wife used to live there. Increasingly though it is more and more difficult for folks even with good white collar jobs to afford to live in Manhattan unless they have a rent-controlled/ rent stabilized apartment.

My wife had a tiny rent-stabilized studio in Chelsea which she paid something like $900/mo for. When she left to move in with me they let it out for $3K/mo. It's nuts.

But to the point, I suspect Shambhala's NYC center was already struggling to pay the enormous rent to be downtown (and the area is popular spirituality type stuff – the Rubin collection is nearby and there’s lots of yoga/new age type businesses closer to Union Sq). If they had people leaving because of the scandal it might have been what tipped them over the edge.
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

User avatar
SonamTashi
Posts: 214
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Shambhala closes NYC center

Post by SonamTashi » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:23 pm

Speaking from experience, missionary activities straight up just do not work. Imo, missionary work would be one of the quickest. Ways to hurt the dharma. No one likes a missionary. One of the things Buddhism has going for it in the West is not being pushy.
:bow: :buddha1: :bow: :anjali: :meditate:

tatpurusa
Posts: 318
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Shambhala closes NYC center

Post by tatpurusa » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:21 pm

SonamTashi wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:23 pm
Speaking from experience, missionary activities straight up just do not work. Imo, missionary work would be one of the quickest. Ways to hurt the dharma. No one likes a missionary. One of the things Buddhism has going for it in the West is not being pushy.
Definitely.
How would you like hearing on the streets about the "Good News of the Pali Kanon"? Let's stop suffering right now, cheer up, because Buddha loves you ..!!..
And what about "Testimonies of the Buddha" knocking on your door?
Last edited by tatpurusa on Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Malcolm
Posts: 29105
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Shambhala closes NYC center

Post by Malcolm » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:23 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:21 pm
SonamTashi wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:23 pm
Speaking from experience, missionary activities straight up just do not work. Imo, missionary work would be one of the quickest. Ways to hurt the dharma. No one likes a missionary. One of the things Buddhism has going for it in the West is not being pushy.
Definitely.
How would you like hearing on the streets about the "God News" of the Pali Kanon? Let's stop suffering right now, cheer up, because Buddha loves you ..!!..
And what about "Testimonies of the Buddha" knocking on your door?
Buddha's Witnesses, promising the Kingdom of Buddha here on earth, visiting you in your home.

User avatar
pueraeternus
Posts: 864
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:10 pm

Re: Shambhala closes NYC center

Post by pueraeternus » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:04 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:23 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:21 pm
SonamTashi wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:23 pm
Speaking from experience, missionary activities straight up just do not work. Imo, missionary work would be one of the quickest. Ways to hurt the dharma. No one likes a missionary. One of the things Buddhism has going for it in the West is not being pushy.
Definitely.
How would you like hearing on the streets about the "God News" of the Pali Kanon? Let's stop suffering right now, cheer up, because Buddha loves you ..!!..
And what about "Testimonies of the Buddha" knocking on your door?
Buddha's Witnesses, promising the Kingdom of Buddha here on earth, visiting you in your home.
Then we will travel to a remote island and harass natives, forcing them to hear about Amitabha (even if they don't want to), while deflecting their arrows with maitri.
"Men must want to do things out of their own innermost drives. People, not commercial organizations or chains of command, are what make great civilizations work. Every civilization depends upon the quality of the individuals it produces. If you over-organize humans, over-legalize them, suppress their urge to greatness - they cannot work and their civilization collapses."
- A letter to CHOAM, attributed to the Preacher

User avatar
pueraeternus
Posts: 864
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:10 pm

Re: Shambhala closes NYC center

Post by pueraeternus » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:28 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:00 am
pueraeternus wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:10 pm

Not just attract moneyed folks, but outreach in general. Not everyone living in Manhattan are filthy rich.
My wife had a tiny rent-stabilized studio in Chelsea which she paid something like $900/mo for. When she left to move in with me they let it out for $3K/mo. It's nuts.
Yes, when I left my battery park city studio years ago, it was already $3k+. I shudder to think how much it is now.

Knotty Veneer wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:00 am
But to the point, I suspect Shambhala's NYC center was already struggling to pay the enormous rent to be downtown (and the area is popular spirituality type stuff – the Rubin collection is nearby and there’s lots of yoga/new age type businesses closer to Union Sq). If they had people leaving because of the scandal it might have been what tipped them over the edge.
It appears many dharma centers in Manhattan are downsizing and facing a lot of financial difficulties. This is not good. It feels sometimes like the walls are closing in. Some folks think the growing secular mindfulness movement is eating into proper Dharma territory.
"Men must want to do things out of their own innermost drives. People, not commercial organizations or chains of command, are what make great civilizations work. Every civilization depends upon the quality of the individuals it produces. If you over-organize humans, over-legalize them, suppress their urge to greatness - they cannot work and their civilization collapses."
- A letter to CHOAM, attributed to the Preacher

User avatar
Karma Dorje
Posts: 1368
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:35 pm

Re: Shambhala closes NYC center

Post by Karma Dorje » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:28 pm

pueraeternus wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:28 pm
It appears many dharma centers in Manhattan are downsizing and facing a lot of financial difficulties. This is not good. It feels sometimes like the walls are closing in. Some folks think the growing secular mindfulness movement is eating into proper Dharma territory.
I can't help but feeling that dharma does better when it is taught frequently in students' living rooms by a teacher who lives here than by any number of visiting lamas in expensive venues. Closer walls can make the setting more intimate.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

User avatar
Miroku
Global Moderator
Posts: 1439
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Shambhala closes NYC center

Post by Miroku » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:57 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:28 pm
pueraeternus wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:28 pm
It appears many dharma centers in Manhattan are downsizing and facing a lot of financial difficulties. This is not good. It feels sometimes like the walls are closing in. Some folks think the growing secular mindfulness movement is eating into proper Dharma territory.
I can't help but feeling that dharma does better when it is taught frequently in students' living rooms by a teacher who lives here than by any number of visiting lamas in expensive venues. Closer walls can make the setting more intimate.
Kinda think the same. Or if there is no teacher then practitioners can be meeting in their flats. Don't really see much reason for such an expensive center. For one year of running that center you can have a proper yogi trained in a 3year retreat.
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.
~ Khunu Lama Rinpoche

Even non-buddhists have many virtuous accomplishments
~ Jigten Sumgon

User avatar
pueraeternus
Posts: 864
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:10 pm

Re: Shambhala closes NYC center

Post by pueraeternus » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:00 pm

Miroku wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:57 pm
Karma Dorje wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:28 pm
pueraeternus wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:28 pm
It appears many dharma centers in Manhattan are downsizing and facing a lot of financial difficulties. This is not good. It feels sometimes like the walls are closing in. Some folks think the growing secular mindfulness movement is eating into proper Dharma territory.
I can't help but feeling that dharma does better when it is taught frequently in students' living rooms by a teacher who lives here than by any number of visiting lamas in expensive venues. Closer walls can make the setting more intimate.
Kinda think the same. Or if there is no teacher then practitioners can be meeting in their flats. Don't really see much reason for such an expensive center. For one year of running that center you can have a proper yogi trained in a 3year retreat.
It's not always feasible that way, since most apartments in Manhattan are not big, so you won't be able to host more than a dozen people (if at all). And having a dedicated dharma center has many benefits.
"Men must want to do things out of their own innermost drives. People, not commercial organizations or chains of command, are what make great civilizations work. Every civilization depends upon the quality of the individuals it produces. If you over-organize humans, over-legalize them, suppress their urge to greatness - they cannot work and their civilization collapses."
- A letter to CHOAM, attributed to the Preacher

ford_truckin
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:03 am

Re: Shambhala closes NYC center

Post by ford_truckin » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:20 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:05 am
ford_truckin wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:58 am
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:38 am
The Buddha required students ask him a question three times before he answered and you want Buddhists to be more missionary?
To quote the Buddha:

Wander forth, O bhikkhus, for the welfare of the multitude, for the happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the good, welfare, and happiness of devas and humans. Let not two go the same way. Teach, O bhikkhus, the Dhamma that is good in the beginning, good in the middle, good in the end, with the right meaning and phrasing.” Samyutta Nikaya 4.453

That sounds missionary to me.
You are a monk (bhikkhu)? So how does this teaching translate into your reality?
It doesn't. Dealing with my own afflictions is more important at the moment.

Post Reply

Return to “News & Current Events”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests